Direct Debits in current situation

[ballet4429]

@Tutumuchmum have you had any luck? I’ve contacted the bank and as I used my debit card I’m only covered to £100. I’ve emailed the gentleman again today - it’s very poor form 

[abitwornout]

Oh no , my daughter was meant to be on the same course . I was expecting the gentleman to email giving the option of a refund Rather than just saying it would be rescheduled ! I haven’t emailed him back yet but I will . 

[Tutumuchmum]

On 11/04/2020 at 10:49, ballet4429 said:

@Tutumuchmum have you had any luck? I’ve contacted the bank and as I used my debit card I’m only covered to £100. I’ve emailed the gentleman again today - it’s very poor form 

No luck refund not an option as it’s postphoned not cancelled . Very frustrating to have lost over £1000 Unless we can attend the next one 

[Canary]

Oh dear, which Easter school is it and had they made it super clear that even if they cancelled you wouldn’t receive a refund ? 

[Dancing Kitty]

That’s disappointing - we had two courses booked and no issues with either.  The first was a straight refund and the second an option to have a refund or take a place on a new date if it worked.  Thankfully the hotels we booked despite being pre-paid deals refunded us.  I hope you can get this resolved.

[Pas de Quatre]

That isn't acceptable. I don't know how moderators feel about it, but for anyone who may be looking for courses in future, it is of interest the course should be named.  Or is it one of the establishments that we may not talk about anyway?

Edited April 13, 2020 by Pas de Quatre
Grammar

[ballet4429]

14 hours ago, Canary said:

Oh dear, which Easter school is it and had they made it super clear that even if they cancelled you wouldn’t receive a refund ? 

 The advice I received from a solicitor friend is that if I accept the ‘postponement’ and then can’t make the new dates , I have cancelled not the course providers which changes my status and makes me ineligible for a refund. I suspect the gentleman will continue to hold on the money and just ‘roll it over’ to his following courses to avoid saying I can’t have the money back. Money is tight, work prospects not available and currently someone is sat on a lot of OUR money. I echo the sentiments in this post about going what we can to keep our local schools going but this is different. 
 

 

Edited April 13, 2020 by ballet4429
I’m happy to give name but won’t until Moderators give permission

[abitwornout]

I haven’t contacted him with a reply yet. However I do think he is being very shortsighted if his stance is to not offer refunds. The ballet world is very small  , his attitude to this would easily ruin any future for his business as no one would want to risk paying for one of his courses again. Not very forward thinking! 

[Anna C]

4 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

That isn't acceptable. I don't know how moderators feel about it, but for anyone who may be looking for courses in future, it is of interest the course should be named.  Or is it one of the establishments that we may not talk about anyway?

 

Unless it’s one of the establishments we don’t discuss, I think simply naming the course should be fine for now (if anyone wants to, obviously), providing the post abides by the usual forum rules. 

[Tutumuchmum]

Dance forward ! 

[Pas de Quatre]

Wow I am surprised!  Had pupils go on this course many times, although not recently, and always felt it one of the best run and most professional.

[Anna C]

Well the organiser obviously doesn’t have to pay the faculty this year 😕 so there should be no reason not to offer the choice of refund or carrying this year’s fees over. 

[alison]

Are you sure?  Won't it depend on the terms of their contracts?

[Anna C]

11 hours ago, alison said:

Are you sure?  Won't it depend on the terms of their contracts?

 

Maybe 🤷🏻‍♀️ It’s one of the more expensive holiday courses and I know these are unprecedented times but I don’t think it’s reasonable to expect to hold onto people’s fees for a year.  

 

I would echo the suggestion that people have a chat to Citizens’ Advice.

[SMabbutt]

15 hours ago, alison said:

Are you sure?  Won't it depend on the terms of their contracts?

Surely they can furlough the staff like any other business and claim the from the government job retention scheme. If they are going to claim then it doesn't seem at all justifiable to refuse to give a refund. I know things are tough for business right now but it is equally tough for many individuals and families.

[bangorballetboy]

11 minutes ago, SMabbutt said:

Surely they can furlough the staff like any other business and claim the from the government job retention scheme. If they are going to claim then it doesn't seem at all justifiable to refuse to give a refund. I know things are tough for business right now but it is equally tough for many individuals and families.

 

That would depend on whether they are employees or contractors.

[junedancer]

3 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said:

 

That would depend on whether they are employees or contractors.

 

In this case they will most likely be self-employed.  The venue may already have been paid so their terms will have to be taken into account by the organiser which I appreciate is their issue rather than the participants.  My feeling is that refunds should be made if the alternative offering is not suitable. At the very least e-mails should be not be going ignored.  I know quite a few people who have been unable to get refunds on travel and hotels for recent dance events that were cancelled although some have been offered credit notes.  For a non-dance related event despite paying in full in advance for a good deal, and the hotel still open at the point we cancelled, we received a full refund on cancellation without our asking.

[Peony]

If they really do have circumstances out of their control in regards to costs it would probably be best to explain that as people may then look a bit more favourably on the situation. I do think as a business you have to have some sort of contingency planning whether that’s insurance or a buffer in the bank. As a participant generally there’s no refund for cancellations despite the circumstances. It’s just going to make people reluctant to use them again. I had a non-refundable stay booked with the Hilton and they were offering refunds even before they were told to close. I’ll definitely use them in preference to others in the future. Since things are going to be up in the air for a long time the loyalty bought by good customer service is definitely going to mean a lot I think!

[Jan McNulty]

We should have been coming to London next week to see Northern Ballet's Geisha.  We had booked a non-refundable stay at one of the nearby Travelodge hotels.

 

I'd been checking the website every day but all they were saying was that for stays after 16th April you could cancel and claim a credit note for saver rate bookings.  (Interesting because the hotel we were booked into is actually closed due to the pandemic).  Today I finally got an email saying they could not accommodate us.  If we want a credit note we can get an extra 25% or we can have a full refund of what we have paid.  We have decided on a refund.

[NJH]

On 15/04/2020 at 14:16, SMabbutt said:

Surely they can furlough the staff like any other business and claim the from the government job retention scheme. If they are going to claim then it doesn't seem at all justifiable to refuse to give a refund. I know things are tough for business right now but it is equally tough for many individuals and families.

most  dance teachers are self employed  so they cannot be furloughed  

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

8 hours ago, NJH said:

most  dance teachers are self employed  so they cannot be furloughed  

 

If the guest dancers/teachers are self employed and freelancing surely it's the case that they won't be paid so therefore the course organiser won't incur any teaching costs. 

 

[Anon2]

My Dd did a number of these courses but a few years ago. The director of the course did a lot of the teaching alongside another teacher from a well known non vocational school. Most of the guest teachers were from the big London ballet companies and I imagine are freelancing, they occasionally cancelled at the last moment and another well known dancer would take their place. 
The premises used when dd attended were ROH, RAD and Rambert. As all of these buildings are currently closed I can’t imagine he is being charged for his booking, unless I am being naive. 

[Pups_mum]

I have no legal knowledge whatsoever, but I wonder if it could be argued that a postponed course is in fact not the same " product" as what you paid for? If it is at a completely different time, particularly if its next year, it isn't what you bought really is it? And there is no guarantee that the advertised teachers will be available next year either, plus the young dancers needs may have changed by then anyway. So I wonder if it could be said that the new course does not fit your needs and is not therefore a like for like replacement?

Whatever the legalities it is a poor show in my opinion. Like others have already said, I have been refunded for things due to the crisis that I probably wasn't absolutely entitled to. For instance I had a ferry crossing booked that was a non refundable special offer so I thought I had lost that money, but I've had a 100% refund with no arguments whatsoever. Most companies seem to be treating their clients as fairly as they can.

[alison]

4 hours ago, Mumofballetmaddaughter said:

 

If the guest dancers/teachers are self employed and freelancing surely it's the case that they won't be paid so therefore the course organiser won't incur any teaching costs. 

 

 

As I indicated above, that may depend on the terms of their contract, I'd think.  I've just checked my own T&Cs, and they do allow for up to a 100% cancellation charge - although I'm not sure that would apply in these exceptional circumstances.

[Peony]

If they were operating and you didn’t attend (even for good reason) there would be a standard cancellation charge. However as the course is not operating at all I don’t think the situation is the same? Do you have any paperwork/ advertisements etc with the dates on? Is there any mention of dates changing if necessary? Personally if they don’t come up with something soon I’d take them to small claims. A thousand pounds is an awful lot of money!

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

9 hours ago, Mumofballetmaddaughter said:

 

If the guest dancers/teachers are self employed and freelancing surely it's the case that they won't be paid so therefore the course organiser won't incur any teaching costs. 

 

 

4 hours ago, alison said:

 

As I indicated above, that may depend on the terms of their contract, I'd think.  I've just checked my own T&Cs, and they do allow for up to a 100% cancellation charge - although I'm not sure that would apply in these exceptional circumstances.

I'd like to think that if that were the case, given the extraordinary circumstances, the guest dancers/teachers would waive their fees to allow the course provider to refund those who do not wish to take the risk of future dates being feasible for them. 

[abitwornout]

Is anyone else not getting any response from Dance Forward. I have emailed and I have not had any reply !!! 

[ballet4429]

4 hours ago, abitwornout said:

Is anyone else not getting any response from Dance Forward. I have emailed and I have not had any reply !!! 

No nothing here