Assessing out process

[Tutumuchmum]

So thinking far ahead and of every eventuality. If my DD was 

to be successful in gaining a place at a vocational school What is  the likelihood statistic wise of her completing the full

5 years ? Do schools give adequate warning and reasoning if they are not offered further training ? Do they help find another school etc ? And offer emotional support ? Looking even further down the line, do many of the original cohort graduate into upper school ? I’m mainly interested in White lodge and Elmhurst. Thank you 😊 

[Waitingmum]

At White Lodge probably just over 1/2 girls get through all 5 years. The school believes that they give warnings in their marking at assessment times but many parents still feel that it comes as a bit of a shock. 
The majority of boys make it to Upper School but probably only around a 1/4-1/3 of girls get into Upper School. 
Parents vary in their opinion of what level of support they give when assessed out - I think they do try but it is always a difficult time especially if you weren’t expecting it. 
I can’t comment on Elmhurst. 
It is a roller coaster of a journey, you just have to hang on and try and enjoy it what ever happens!!

[Tutumuchmum]

Thank you , Sounds like a tough ride for girls . Does the school give preference to their own home grown students that they’ve had from JA through to white lodge ? Does seem like quite a small number to be taken into the upper school. Especially when students give up so much to train there . 

[balletcoach]

13 minutes ago, Tutumuchmum said:

Thank you , Sounds like a tough ride for girls . Does the school give preference to their own home grown students that they’ve had from JA through to white lodge ? Does seem like quite a small number to be taken into the upper school. Especially when students give up so much to train there . 

In later years, mostly international (and with sponsors or able to pay a full fee)

[dancefanatic]

Elmhurst do annual appraisals for each year group but do make a commitment to all LS students for the 5 years. You should find info on this fact on their website. And I have seen this in practice during my DC’s time at the school. That said, some students may choose to leave during the 5 years for a myriad of reasons. 
 

with regard to how many may go through the school all the way from Y7 to Graduate year, this is quite fluid. Approx half of a Y11 cohort may be offered Upper School places but not all will take it up and not all Y11s will have been there since Y7. But all students entering Upper School in Y12 will have Elmhurst’s commitment for the 3 years. 
 

hope this helps you somewhat. Certainly I have seen students not do so well in an appraisal be offered advice on areas to work on before being re-appraised in a regular class a few weeks later. 

[Ruby Foo]

At RBS, some students are very aware they may be assessed out from previous assessment marks/ parent teacher interview,  but for some, there was no warning and it comes as a complete surprise and shock. I think there is some help finding new schools but it depends who you speak to as to how far reaching this is.

Obviously the numbers of students going from yr 7 to yr 11 varies from year to year but i think approx 3/4 . However, the number ( girls) going on to upper school is very tiny indeed. One year only 2!  Last year 5 ( the most for a good few years) Out of a class of 14 -17 year 11’s, that’s a very tiny percentage. Going to vocational school is just the beginning of a very long road of challenges and being aware of this is wise,  which is why it’s great you asked these questions!

[meadowblythe]

 

Can I just say that being assessed out, or changing school,  isn't necessarily the end of the world (although it certainly seems like it at the time).  

 

For us it forced an issue that needed forcing - DS clearly wasn't flourishing at his first school.  Which he went on to do elsewhere.  It wasn't necessarily the dancing, it was the whole ethos and environment which was wrong for him.  I can honestly say I don't think he would have been able to move on to the wonderful RCS, or work abroad at 18, if it wasn't for his time at Hammond. It was the right place for him dance, socially and academically,  with a far more equitable approach to their students than his previous school.

 

DS is now sharing a role in an upcoming production of his current company with one of his original cohort.  The ultimate proof that there are many roads to Rome ...

Edited February 29, 2020 by meadowblythe
lack of cohesion

[Waitingmum]

On 28/02/2020 at 23:40, Tutumuchmum said:

Thank you , Sounds like a tough ride for girls . Does the school give preference to their own home grown students that they’ve had from JA through to white lodge ? Does seem like quite a small number to be taken into the upper school. Especially when students give up so much to train there . 

No preference given to own students, the only benefit is guarantee of an actual audition. Often it is foreign students brought into year 10 that get offers for upper school.  If you are successful then you may only complete 2 years and be assessed out before the 3rd and final year and from the 3rd year only a few will get offers for the company apprenticeship scheme. Each year this equates to only 1 or 2 Original JAs in upper school. 

[rowan]

“The ultimate proof that there are many roads to Rome ...”

This is so true. If it helps, mine did not go to vocational school, but still ended up in a company with a dancer who had been to RBS from 11. They were the only Brits, I think. Depends what sort of teaching you have available locally, of course.

[SissonneDoublee]

1 hour ago, Waitingmum said:

No preference given to own students, the only benefit is guarantee of an actual audition. Often it is foreign students brought into year 10 that get offers for upper school.  If you are successful then you may only complete 2 years and be assessed out before the 3rd and final year and from the 3rd year only a few will get offers for the company apprenticeship scheme. Each year this equates to only 1 or 2 Original JAs in upper school. 

I suppose in a way it’s like an internal promotion at work... you have more time to prove that you are what they want, but also more time to prove that you are not! I think at some schools their own lower school students go directly through to finals, but they will take the dancers they want from the auditions without any priority given to their own.

Do lower school students receive tailored audition preparation in the same way that JAs do for WL auditions? Or do they go in blind like all the other candidates?

[Katniss]

Any dancer outside of WL stands as much chance, if not better, of gaining an upper school place.

Edited March 1, 2020 by Katniss

[Ruby Foo]

37 minutes ago, Katniss said:

Any dancer outside of WL stands as much chance, if not better, of gaining an upper school place.

  
The recruiting policy adopted by RBS is the direct opposite of most other international Ballet schools such as Paris Opera or School of American Ballet which only recruit from their own pupils. But much has been commented on on this particular subject.... sigh.

[Tutumuchmum]

3 hours ago, Katniss said:

Any dancer outside of WL stands as much chance, if not better, of gaining an upper school place.

So does the problem lie in the initial selection of students taken into white lodge ? or in the training they receive when they’re there ?  Why are international students more likely to receive these sort after upper school places ? Surely it’s a direct reflection on RBS training if the international students recruited are the finished article already ? In my own profession (I analyse  and advise businesses on investments) I’m not certain I’d advise anyone to send their child to train there as early as age 11. Food for thought .... 

[Katniss]

IMHO and personal experience it reflects the training they receive at WL. 

[glowlight]

Remember that there is a lot of movement between schools at 16.  There are more options open to students but also a lot more students looking for vocational places.  For many children going away to vocational school at 11 isn't the right thing for them, and I'm sure that in terms of overseas students there will be many more families happy to send a 16 year old to a foreign country than an 11 year old.

 

So if RBS is seen internationally as one of the most prestigious schools in the world it is not surprising that the demand for 6th form places from overseas students is exceptionally high and attracts the highest calibre students trained in their home countries.

 

In many ways the Paris Opera Ballet approach of only recruiting from within their own school looks fair - but if all schools took this approach there would be limited opportunities for those who don't go to vocational school at 11, or for those who find that the school they started at simply isn't right for them.

 

I think I've said elsewhere - if we only looked at the statistics no-one would ever aspire to any sort of elite art or sport.  

 

The main thing is to go into it with open eyes being prepared for the path to be a winding one.

Edited March 1, 2020 by glowlight
typo

[Waitingmum]

10 hours ago, SissonneDoublee said:

I suppose in a way it’s like an internal promotion at work... you have more time to prove that you are what they want, but also more time to prove that you are not! I think at some schools their own lower school students go directly through to finals, but they will take the dancers they want from the auditions without any priority given to their own.

Do lower school students receive tailored audition preparation in the same way that JAs do for WL auditions? Or do they go in blind like all the other candidates?

They go in blind

[Farawaydancer]

1 minute ago, Waitingmum said:

They go in blind

They go in blind but at a definite advantage in some ways. They will be more relaxed in the surroundings and will likely have been taught by the person leading the class, therefore being more aware of their style and what the exercises might be like, timing etc. I think the panel too will be naturally drawn to paying more attention to students that they are familiar with. 

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Farawaydancer said:

They go in blind but at a definite advantage in some ways. They will be more relaxed in the surroundings and will likely have been taught by the person leading the class, therefore being more aware of their style and what the exercises might be like, timing etc. I think the panel too will be naturally drawn to paying more attention to students that they are familiar with. 

RBS students may be familiar with the surroundings and possibly the teacher too but that’s where it ends! Most of the students the panel will be really interested in are high brow International students who are already international competition winners and used to performing to an extremely high standard and under pressure. RBS students may well be at a disadvantage as they will have had very little experience out of their own environment - no competitions, exams or extra lessons with different teachers to gain experience and confidence. Also, being known by some members of the panel may be both an advantage or disadvantage as they may well have a prejudged opinion.

[Farawaydancer]

34 minutes ago, valentina said:

RBS students may be familiar with the surroundings and possibly the teacher too but that’s where it ends! Most of the students the panel will be really interested in are high brow International students who are already international competition winners and used to performing to an extremely high standard and under pressure. RBS students may well be at a disadvantage as they will have had very little experience out of their own environment - no competitions, exams or extra lessons with different teachers to gain experience and confidence. Also, being known by some members of the panel may be both an advantage or disadvantage as they may well have a prejudged opinion.

I was thinking more of the other lower schools  students I must admit, as that’s what I have experience of. Almost every single one of my ds class does have extensive experience of dancing outside of the school too, I’d be very surprised if most of the WL students weren’t the same, especially since we come across lots of them very often at outside classes! 

[Ruby Foo]

26 minutes ago, Farawaydancer said:

I was thinking more of the other lower schools  students I must admit, as that’s what I have experience of. Almost every single one of my ds class does have extensive experience of dancing outside of the school too, I’d be very surprised if most of the WL students weren’t the same, especially since we come across lots of them very often at outside classes! 

Im sure you are right Farawaydancer re the extra lessons! But they are strictly forbidden and punishable by immediate expulsion so, although they may improve your technique, the joy and confidence will be lost in fear of doing something illicit. 

[Tutumuchmum]

On 01/03/2020 at 19:22, Waitingmum said:

They go in blind

Does the artistic director regularly take class with his own students ? 

[Ruby Foo]

2 hours ago, Tutumuchmum said:

Does the artistic director regularly take class with his own students ? 

No. Very rarely. If ever.

[Peanut68]

🤔

[Dancing unicorn]

He never watched at my DD’s school either! Well not lower school anyway! In fact he got her name wrong right til the day she left 🧐

Edited March 4, 2020 by Dancing unicorn

[Starshine]

Sorry to jump on this post, I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the assessment process for mid associates? My dd is a yr 7 MA and obviously assessments are coming up soon but there doesn't seem to be much info,  are students often assessed out from mids? Is feedback given? The whole process makes me feel very nervous as I know how devastated my dd will be if she does get assessed out, I think I feel more nervous for this than I did for the whole audition process.

[Peanut68]

4 hours ago, Tutumuchmum said:

Does the artistic director regularly take class with his own students ? 

I think this is a Q we should all be asking of all the schools!! 
And IMHO I would expect ALL staff from bottom to top - even the academic ‘business’ principal - to know all pupils (in institutions where year groups are well under 40 generally) by name!!! 

[Dancing unicorn]

I wish we could have 😡🤬 faces as well as ❤️ Haha! 🤣🤣🤣🤣

[Peanut68]

 

Edited March 4, 2020 by Peanut68

[Ruby Foo]

57 minutes ago, Starshine said:

Sorry to jump on this post, I was wondering if anyone has any experience with the assessment process for mid associates? My dd is a yr 7 MA and obviously assessments are coming up soon but there doesn't seem to be much info,  are students often assessed out from mids? Is feedback given? The whole process makes me feel very nervous as I know how devastated my dd will be if she does get assessed out, I think I feel more nervous for this than I did for the whole audition process.

It’s very rare for anyone to be assessed out of mids. I think it has happened once or twice but usually there has been a long-standing issue which everyone is aware of long before the assessments. That’s my understanding from experience but I can’t tell you if policy has changed.

[Peanut68]

I agee Unicorn..... also the occasional 🤮too!!! 🤣

[Pas de Quatre]

I also have never heard of anyone being assessed out of Mids, but I have known some who were put on "monitor".  This meant there were areas where they were having problems.  When it was one of my pupils it was just due to her growth spurt and she regained strength and stayed on. 

[Motomum]

My son is boys Y7 MAs, and it is possible to be assessed out of Mids. It might not happen v often, but they have been told that it can if they are not where they should be, or not meeting the standards of behaviour expected of them. It is not just about the dancing, it is about IMHO as much about whether they fit within a certain image as they move through the training program.

 

 

With our MA group, the parents were all booked in after Christmas with the class teacher for a report on how our child is doing, strengths, weaknesses, concerns, any questions etc

 

One of the posts mentioned AD knowing and watching the classes; whenever AD is going to be in the building, the class is forewarned as he always watches at the viewing window. He also watches unannounced as well.

Head of Associate programs always watches the class and takes notes on every parent watching day, undertakes the boys assessments and regularly watches at unannounced times throughout the terms.

 

I am talking about specialist boys MAs, I cannot speak for other MA classes.

 

AD WL said to parents last week on finals day for Y8,9,10,11, our selection process is about whether or not you are right fit for the Royal Ballet to train.

 

In my son’s interview, the person interviewing him spoke a lot about if you are offered a place, you will be representing our brand and will have to behave accordingly. Yikes!

 

It also said to me that selection is not solely based on talent. I used to think it was, but I don’t anymore. And the flip side of this, is that for me ‘assessing out’ is not based solely on lack of talent, but so many more things, many of which we will never fully know.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Motomum
Syntax.

[Ruby Foo]

1 hour ago, Motomum said:

My son is boys Y7 MAs, and it is possible to be assessed out of Mids. It might not happen v often, but they have been told that it can if they are not where they should be, or not meeting the standards of behaviour expected of them. It is not just about the dancing, it is about IMHO as much about whether they fit within a certain image as they move through the training program.

 

 

With our MA group, the parents were all booked in after Christmas with the class teacher for a report on how our child is doing, strengths, weaknesses, concerns, any questions etc

 

One of the posts mentioned AD knowing and watching the classes; whenever AD is going to be in the building, the class is forewarned as he always watches at the viewing window. He also watches unannounced as well.

Head of Associate programs always watches the class and takes notes on every parent watching day, undertakes the boys assessments and regularly watches at unannounced times throughout the terms.

 

I am talking about specialist boys MAs, I cannot speak for other MA classes.

 

AD WL said to parents last week on finals day for Y8,9,10,11, our selection process is about whether or not you are right fit for the Royal Ballet to train.

 

In my son’s interview, the person interviewing him spoke a lot about if you are offered a place, you will be representing our brand and will have to behave accordingly. Yikes!

 

It also said to me that selection is not solely based on talent. I used to think it was, but I don’t anymore. And the flip side of this, is that for me ‘assessing out’ is not based solely on lack of talent, but so many more things, many of which we will never fully know.

 

 

I’m sorry, but I disagree with this. I can’t speak for MA’s as I’ve never heard of any ‘ actually’ being assessed out. I guess in any school or institution where you are not behaving appropriately or representing the establishment in an appropriate way,  then you might be asked to leave.

From a WL point of view, especially in yr 10, it is very clear to EVERYBODY  what happens when the class sizes swell to a disproportionate size with new exclusively international students of an extremely high standard who will be ready to replace the WL students in upper school. Believe me, it has nothing to do with ‘ not representing the school in a good light’ or ‘looking or behaving in a certain way’. It is all about talented students who have received excellent training abroad and reached a higher standard.