Best way to help - safe and effective dance training

[Peanut68]

22 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Unfortunately even some full time schools are now congratulating students  on social participating in high profile events/shows with this type of teacher. (why they are being allowed to take part is beyond me).  

And possibly this reflects changes in policy from previous years?

Troubling....but also schools can often give one rule to one & another to others...

Years back DD was banned from attending a highly prestigious invited to audition (still kind of kick myself for not just taking her....) only to then find another new fellow student was getting feted for a TV talent show appearance....Not to take anything away from that or any other pupil but the opportunity my DC didn’t go for could well have been life changing & career forming just as it was for this other pupil....

Was it money talking? Guess if paying full fees maybe I’d be braver at telling a school what we were doing, not asking.... back to the ever so humble attitude....giving over too much power dynamic perhaps? Sigh

[Aurora3]

Referring to your original post: I know this facebook image and the person posting it is not unqualified at all. I also know other qualified teachers teaching "extreme" stretching. What I can imagine is that it depends on the genetics of the student whether this is detrimental or not (as far as I know longterm studies on this are still missing) and qualified teachers know who can do it and who can´t? Just something to think about?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I think it was damage limitation to be honest back then and a different genre but I am wondering about policy shift.

 

Can't really say more publicly as its other people's children etc etc.

[taxi4ballet]

Although this issue does impact the ballet world, am I right in thinking that the worst culprits for all this extreme stretching are those who teach in the highly competitive disco / acro / showdance / freestyle schools?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Many of them are also teaching ballet and often "contemporary". 

Edited February 4, 2020 by Picturesinthefirelight

[Peanut68]

I applaud the above comments from all you very experienced posters - this is absolutely the time to begin an open, inclusive & exhaustive survey of practises & a campaign for ensuring the safe training & welfare of young dancers in whatever training establishment! 

This needs to come under some sort of legal framework surely? If a child were injured & it was medically concluded that the 70 hours a week training was the root cause.... what find back? Probably legal waivers signed by parents going with the flow prevent any private prosecution even? 

I have heard heresay of individuals still training huge amounts & doing ever more over stretched  acro trick routines despite advice from consultants that they need to stop to prevent further damage to already painful hips.....and this in a developing young body? The long term consequences are just horrific to consider....& for what? Several thousand likes & stupid inane ‘yazzz’ ‘you go gaaal’ ‘how are you so good?’ I want to be you’ (disturbing) comments on Instagram etc? A few moments on TV? A few awards? Used as a marketing tool to recruit more into a school? Promote the masterclasses of ‘top’ teachers/industry ‘professionals’/events/brands? I add cynical ‘speech marks’ & further ???? to these questionable descriptors....

We need regulation NOW! 

[drdance]

1 hour ago, Aurora3 said:

Referring to your original post: I know this facebook image and the person posting it is not unqualified at all. I also know other qualified teachers teaching "extreme" stretching. What I can imagine is that it depends on the genetics of the student whether this is detrimental or not (as far as I know longterm studies on this are still missing) and qualified teachers know who can do it and who can´t? Just something to think about?

 

There are many qualified teachers promoting it, yes, that is exactly my point. 

 

Extreme stretching is most likely detrimental to the majority of children. We do not have long term data on this topic and while there may be qualified teachers who know who can do it and who can't, this does not apply when the entire class are being made to do it, and children are in tears. 

 

Also, if teachers are applauding/celebrating those children with a natural gift for mobility, what will all the others think? What will they aspire to? What harm will come to them in trying to emulate the mobility of their peers?

 

Furthermore, there are much safer and more effective ways at training hip flexibility than putting one leg on a chair and another on the floor, and sitting in the middle of it. 

 

Even if a child has natural flexibility, sitting in extreme passive stretches is dangerous and unhelpful and should be discouraged, certainly not praised, not even for those who can do it. There's no need for it. 

[Pups_mum]

I think you are right Peanut, though I think it would be very difficult to regulate an industry so diverse as dance.

You also cannot entirely out regulate stupidity. As I have mentioned (endlessly,  I know...) I have a son who plays 2 sports at a reasonably competent level. The contrast between what I see in those highly regulated and controlled environments and the dance world is stark. BUT, there are still parents who think they know best and seek further training outside of the national body's programme, or travel to multiple different venues to make the over training less obvious. And I am sure there are coaches who don't follow the rules, though fortunately we haven't encountered any ourselves.

Regulation certainly doesn't totally prevent children being pushed too hard or training inappropriately, but I believe it does help. It also makes the world a lot easier for parents to navigate as it is relatively easy to access information which means you can sense check what you are being told. So when the parent stood next to me an event says "Oh, my little Jimmy is doing eleventy billion hours a week training and we are travelling to Australia to compete next weekend, your son needs to do the same if he wants to progress" it is pretty easy to let that wash over me, because club and regional coaches are all telling me otherwise, and I can look at resources from the national body too. In dance we seem to be reliant on finding a good teacher that we can trust, but everyone seems to be singing a different tune. If you are new to it all, finding the right teacher is hard, and often it comes down to luck. 

I think the big hurdle in regulating dance compared with sport is the business model. Most sports are run by volunteers at grassroots level, with relatively few people actually earning their living from coaching, mainly at higher levels. Plus there is often an vein of national funding, be that lottery funding, money direct from the government,  sponsorship or charitable funding, running through sports. This model lends itself to a national regulatory body and framework. Dance teachers on the other hand are largely self employed or working in small businesses and are pretty much all trying to make a living. External funding, as we all know, is extremely limited and tends not to reach grassroots level. 

So you have an activity that carries much the same risks as competitive sports but without the same infrastructure, and probably also with a much smaller evidence base as to what actually the right way to train is. The government has invested heavily in elite sports programmes in order to win Olympic medals etc. The knowledge gained at that level trickles down and benefits children like my son. There doesn't seem to be a comparable thing in dance, but surely it is needed?

I'm not saying that I think regulation is a bad thing - I absolutely don't  - but I think there are big and difficult reasons why it hasn't happened already and why it would not be easy to implement. I do think that better cooperation between the various examining bodies, the vocational schools and organisations like CDET would be a great start though. 

 

 

[drdance]

In an effort to begin to lobby the dance societies to insist on mandatory CPD I have set up an online petition here: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/mandatory-child-protection-training-for-all-dance-teachers?share=fcbfafa4-d470-42a3-87bc-9fd775a1c3f9&source=rawlink&utm_source=rawlink&share=cbc2e73e-9319-4e7f-82bc-4c4daf82f97c

 

Please share and sign.

 

Thank you

[Anon2]

3 minutes ago, drdance said:

In an effort to begin to lobby the dance societies to insist on mandatory CPD I have set up an online petition here: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/mandatory-child-protection-training-for-all-dance-teachers?share=fcbfafa4-d470-42a3-87bc-9fd775a1c3f9&source=rawlink&utm_source=rawlink&share=cbc2e73e-9319-4e7f-82bc-4c4daf82f97c

 

Please share and sign.

 

Thank you

Signed 

[Peanut68]

Wow Pups Mum, you really help put all this into context - thank you!

Its almost as off baller falls between the arts & sports sectors; & traditionally the former tends to be seen as elitist (& classist sadly) & with less widespread appeal & participation - wether doing or watching - across the general public. Hence I guess much less grass roots funding, much less inclusive programmes of involvement (very few 

mainstream schools offer the chance to dance compared to most popular sports like football within PE or even as extra curricular. 
I think there’s been a tendency too to copy more the music model.... a top musician never got to that spot by having just 2 or 3 hour long group lessons with 24 other kids.... even for more recreation music tends to be a half hour weekly private lesson. So it seems natural to do the same for ballet right? 
But then it gets almost like a competition as you say in football.... that ‘eleventy billion hours’ (🤣loved that!) with weekends jetting off all over to compete etc etc..... again, I sigh 😏

[Peanut68]

7 minutes ago, drdance said:

In an effort to begin to lobby the dance societies to insist on mandatory CPD I have set up an online petition here: https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/mandatory-child-protection-training-for-all-dance-teachers?share=fcbfafa4-d470-42a3-87bc-9fd775a1c3f9&source=rawlink&utm_source=rawlink&share=cbc2e73e-9319-4e7f-82bc-4c4daf82f97c

 

Please share and sign.

 

Thank you

Signed 

Thanks for taking the initiative & lead on this! 

 

[Pups_mum]

I've signed and shared tge petition on my Facebook.

[FlexyNexy]

Signed and shared on my Facebook.

[Mumofballetmaddaughter]

Signed and shared. Thank you for doing this drdance. I've found this subject fascinating and after doing a google search on extreme stretching am appalled by the results. Lets hope things change for the sake of our youngsters. 

[Fiz]

Signed and shared on Facebook and Twitter. 

[Jan McNulty]

Signed and shared on Facebook and Twitter.

[taxi4ballet]

4 hours ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Many of them are also teaching ballet and often "contemporary". 

Oh yes, 'contemporary'. I knew I'd forgotten one.

[Peanut68]

20 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said:

Oh yes, 'contemporary'. I knew I'd forgotten one.

And that (relatively new?) genre Lyrical...

[Picturesinthefirelight]

My Dd does an hilarious mickey take on “contemporary” , the kind that Graham, Horton, Cunningham et al have been no where near. 

[BellaF]

Signed and shared on Facebook.

 

A high profile 'no pain no gain' school has recently publicised 3 of its (undoubtedly talented) students through to finals for a Big School... Makes it even harder to discourage impressionable younger children away from working towards the ultra flexibility they also often post on social media. My own 9 year old DD for one is influenced which is a worry (have her booked in with a respected dance physio at the end of the month in attempt to ward this off!).

[Pups_mum]

It would be interesting to know how dancers who have started out in the "no pain no gain" competition type schools get on if they go to vocational schools, and how they come to view their early training with time. Someone who had been through that experience could be a valuable influence if they have had to "unlearn" early habits and have come to realise the dangers. (I don't know anyone though, sorry.)

 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I know of a couple who have actually left vocational school to join/rejoin his type of school as they felt they were being held back/wanted the limelight. 

[Peanut68]

Amazing how the lure of five minutes of fame still draws people in....

[Moneypenny]

Pity the day “Dance Moms” ever appeared on our screens! I just don’t understand the mentality of teachers and parents who think all this extreme stuff is clever. It bears absolutely no relation to how students will be taught in a good vocational school and is irrelevant for a professional career, not to mention highly damaging to growing young bodies. Perhaps young impressionable children need role models to look up to and aspire to, maybe young professional dancers who have rejected the extreme, the dangerous and the downright stupid to train sensibly and look after their bodies, to become strong healthy dancers. I am no ballet afficianado but I have seen plenty of professional performances ... I see skill, amazing technical ability, strength and beautiful movement ... and I’ll bet none of that is achieved by extreme over stretching et al! 

[drdance]

1 hour ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

I know of a couple who have actually left vocational school to join/rejoin his type of school as they felt they were being held back/wanted the limelight. 

I can't believe this!!

[Aurora3]

I know quite a few very talented students who refused to go to a state-run school because they woul not be allowed to take part in competitions anymore.

[Dancing unicorn]

Signed x

[Danceforfun]

Signed, I will also share on my Facebook tomorrow and by email to all my contacts. Well done 

[richieN]

@drdance, I know of the article you speak of and the situation that led to it.

 

Setting up of a governing body that enforces best practice and protection standards is the best way to go.

Make the body double-tier - either a school can be approved (regular inspections) or individual teachers can get a qualification that needs to be updated every few years.

 

Raise awareness of membership with insurance companies who underwrite dance schools/teachers - so they offer much higher rates of insurance premiums for those who are not members (because they pose a greater risk to the insurer)

 

Then there needs to be political pressure (both public and private) to make people who hire out rooms and facilities insist on the membership.

(Addendum) Make it a requirement for schools to have membership before they can attend festivals and competitions.

 

Simples.

Edited February 6, 2020 by richieN