How much help Finding jobs do schools give?

[Bex does ballet]

Hi I’m looking for personal experiences from recent ( ish ) graduates. I’d love to hear about just how much help your school/college ( I’m talking mainly British vocational training establishments here) actually give you? 
I’d be interested to hear how much advice was given about where to apply? Was help given in school to make rehearse/ plan/produce audition dvds ( or online equivalent) ? Were company artistic directors invited into school or for a special performance? Were solos choreographed/ rehearsed by staff for auditions?  Or were the dancers ( or parents?) left pretty much to sort this sort of stuff out on their own? 
I’m wondering how experiences differ between different institutions - I don’t want to start a “my school’s better than your school” style debate, just after honest appraisal of the process in different places 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Bex does ballet
Edited for capital letters ( sorry I can’t help it)

[DD Driver]

Great question!

 

This came up the other day in a conversation I had with a parent.  Her DD had recently graduated from a UK vocational school affiliated with a company. The DD was still auditioning around Europe.  As expected,  the overarching goal of the school was to get students into the associated company.  For those that did not get in... Yes, they had enjoyed the benefit of performance opportunities with that company e.g. students did Nutcracker etc.  Help in the final year was provided to get auditions but naturally this ebbed away quickly when you left the building.

 

The parent commented that full time schools that were not linked to a company - usually in Europe - were obviously  extremely focused on getting every student the most opportunities via comps, auditions, preparing videos, networking etc Their reputation depends on this!  Also, students leave early if an opportunity arises or stay longer if not.  There is not such a structured format where people graduate in a given year and have to leave. 

 

I have noticed that vocational company schools are slowly getting better in this area.   At the end of the day, you need to believe that your school is providing the very best training possible for your individual dancer and to be ready to stand up or pull them out if not.  Also ready and able to get involved if their wellbeing is in jeopardy.  

 

Note: One's perspective in Australia is different from those in UK e.g. no govt. funding!

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by DD Driver

[Bex does ballet]

Thanks for the reply DD driver. That’s a very interesting point about the European schools.
 

I would have thought it was in the best interest of all schools to help as many as possible  find employment and not just the one or two who may be lucky (talented) enough to get a spot within the affiliate company. As you say, a school’s reputation depends , in part, on its graduate destinations. Is it a case, I wonder, that they pour so much time and effort ( and attention) on those lucky few that the rest are left to fend for themselves? Or is everyone given equal weight but only those rare exceptionally talented few are destined for company jobs? 

 I should maybe say that I’m well aware that the current climate is extremely difficult and that company jobs are hard to come by, so I understand the frustration of many grads who may be extremely talented and well trained but still not find that elusive contract - just want to know how much assistance and advice they have been given and how much this differs between schools. 

[Peanut68]

A really good topic to open up for debate - thank you Bex!

I think so often we all are ‘ever so humble’ & just grateful our kids are in schools with ‘top training’ that we can lose sight of eventual end game; for them to gain employment - ideally best utilising that their talents & training.... 

I do worry that it’s ‘the chosen few’ that get spotted & selected during that training process & worry also that too many students/parents (& teachers?) put stock on their Insta presence too these days.... and those lucky features few or internet savvy ones (or is it their parents??) constantly posting impossibly advanced looking feats & poses (and even the big schools seem to now be doing this.... a fabulous still of an arabesque is all very good & lovely but actually put into context of it being a screengrab of a video with a dancer whacking a leg up at speed in grand battlements derrière with a back bend & suddenly it’s not so ‘wow - I’ll never have an arabesque like that’ which can demoralise trainee dancers....more ‘Ah, it’s just a trick - I’ll do that too!’ 

I have such respect for the dancers & photographers pre digital photography who actually had to hold an arabesque or hope to capture that perfect shot mid movement...& it galls me now that the assumption is that the modern dancers are better technique/more supple/more gracefully etc etc....more able to ‘cheat it’ to a certain degree really I’m tempted to say? 

Anyway....I’m digressing.... I think that end ambition does need to be realistic & assisted & schools/teachers owe a duty of care to pupils (& of value to parents/funding bodies?) to keep it fair with equal opportunity for all....

But I’m not stupid.... a level playing field will never exist whilst money talks as does parental support & opportunities are not geographically even either....

Was fascinated recently to discover Dance  School of Scotland.... free vocational training for Scottish resident children alongside a regular secondary education with comparable dance study & hours to the traditional ‘big four’ - boarding if needed contribution just £25 a month!!! Wow! Why is this model not replicated in rest of UK? It seems to be in lots of other European countries also....

And still I digress....

I think it is a case of needing to provide value for money & yes, grad destinations are a school’s main selling point....

So easy to focus on those alumni who’ve ‘made it’ but actually perhaps we do need to ask more about the other 98%....

I remember years back this was business minded Hubbies Q at the onset of vocational training - quote  “I hope this doesn’t turn out to be the most expensive Barista training ever”  Quite!!!

But who are we parents to crush dreams? 

Celebrating these whilst keeping all our youngsters grounded, happy, healthy & aware of possible need for plan B’s & plan C’s is I guess the best we can do! 

But expecting fairness & equal assistance for all is surely our right? But I just heard loud oinking as something Pink flew past the window.... 🐖🐖 might 🛫🛫 first!!! 

[meadowblythe]

I so agree we tend to be "humble and grateful .."  experience of first vocational school was the "chosen few" were probably chosen at the end of the first week of Y7 - the rest were paying the electricity bill.

 

One advantage of being assessed out (and yes, there really are some) was  moving to a school where opportunities were more equitably shared.  Ditto being at a less well known  upper school.  Of the 12 in his year 10 got jobs  (real paid jobs) or apprenticeships at a variety of establishments in Europe and the US.  No, they weren't always the most prestigious companies but  they were sufficient to start careers.  They also came out  of the school mentally and physically in good shape.

 

Very happy to discuss help given to DS if anyone PMs me, but I suspect that this varies as much within institutions as between them so not sure if you can generalise from an individual experience.

Edited February 1, 2020 by meadowblythe
add extra sentence

[taxi4ballet]

8 hours ago, Bex does ballet said:

Is it a case, I wonder, that they pour so much time and effort ( and attention) on those lucky few that the rest are left to fend for themselves?

In my (somewhat cynical) view, this is how students are treated throughout their time in training. 

[DD Driver]

7 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

I remember years back this was business minded Hubbies Q at the onset of vocational training - quote  “I hope this doesn’t turn out to be the most expensive Barista training ever”  Quite!!!

 

Well said! And I would like a happy barista working towards their new dreams, please! 

Not a confused or bitter one.

 

If my DD was offered funded training at a top vocational school, it would be extremely hard to resist or at least give it a chance. 

That is not the case right now.  So I get to be very discerning about what is on offer.  The power dynamic changes.   

 

Having an endless waiting list for funded places or being the only access point into a company impacts on how a vocational school operates in the world.

Some are inspirational places and some ... well its all been recorded on this forum!

 

Anecdotal story: I was talking to a top photographer who was travelling through my city. 

I showed him a series of graduate audition shots that I had seen (on social media) from a top vocational school. We agreed that the pictures were not good!

Frankly, many students looked unattractive.  Good hair & make-up and importantly the right angle, lighting and background could easily fix this.  He said that the school would have paid for the graduate portfolios but had maybe gone with a cheaper quote or was just unaware of what the benchmark was out there.

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by DD Driver

[Anon2]

The school may well arrange for a particular photographer to take the portfolio shots but it will be added to the students accounts. The school will not be paying. 
 

In my daughter’s graduate year most of the students arranged their own photo shots as they got longer with the photographer and had more control over positions. Plus from what I remember it was cheaper. 

[DD Driver]

Yes, Jane!  That would be the smarter approach.

I figure the students in this case paid on their account and then paid again to get new shots

[balletbean]

Will UK graduates still be able to join European Ballet Companies now that Brexit has happened? 

[rowan]

You don’t need to have professional photos done. My DD never did. Doesn’t seem to have mattered. 

[Jan McNulty]

35 minutes ago, balletbean said:

Will UK graduates still be able to join European Ballet Companies now that Brexit has happened? 

 

I've no idea but they will probably require work permits.

[taxi4ballet]

9 hours ago, balletbean said:

Will UK graduates still be able to join European Ballet Companies now that Brexit has happened? 

Probably - after all, it's unlikely that the many European dancers in British companies will be asked to leave. When you look at the success of, say, Japanese dancers, they get jobs all over the world, including Europe. It's a global industry.

Edited February 3, 2020 by taxi4ballet

[Bex does ballet]

Thank you all for your replies. I am beginning to think that my worst fears are being confirmed since no one has given a particularly positive report of plenty of support. 

I honestly believed that whilst I was under no illusion of it being a level playing field, there would at very least be a good basic level of support  for all students in choreographing/ recording a dvd, suggestions about where / when to audition/ help with decent audition photos/ being kept up to date on audiRuin  opportunities., Maybe even inviting artistic directors into school to see ALL students  (equally... 🤣....Oh how naive... ) . Us non dance world parents have a lot to learn 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

It certainly appears to be a stark contrast between what happens at purely ballet schools and at more general dance colleges.

 

At my daughter's school a huge proportion of the third year is dedicated to finding work.  Casting directors, directors and agents make regular visits to run workshops or watch class.  The students are assisted with photos and showreels.  They perform in a London showcase to agents and casting directors are invited to school performances.  

[Bex does ballet]

Thanks Pictures, that’s interesting to hear and more like what I would have expected! 

[Bluebird22]

I have some students currently in third year at vocational college and they have lots of opportunities to be seen by casting directors. When I watched their show last year, there were quite a few announcements made about third years who had successfully secured contracts, a few had left for contracts before completing their course. And another vocational college sends people for auditions as soon as they feel they are ready regardless of where they are in their training. These aren’t ballet schools though, so this is more in line with Pictures 

[Bex does ballet]

Thanks bluebird 

there appears to be a picture emerging 

[Peanut68]

Hmmm.... ballet schools too posh to push???!!! 🤣

[Oakley]

I've been reading this thread with interest.  It seems to be from what I have read that ballet schools in particular dont provide a huge amount of help regarding auditions - please correct me if I have read this wrong.   If this is the case, where is the best place (website, social media page, other) to find audition information specifically regarding ballet?

[Anon2]

37 minutes ago, Oakley said:

I've been reading this thread with interest.  It seems to be from what I have read that ballet schools in particular dont provide a huge amount of help regarding auditions - please correct me if I have read this wrong.   If this is the case, where is the best place (website, social media page, other) to find audition information specifically regarding ballet?

Audition notices on BalletEurope website. 
 

There was a notice board at school that detailed upcoming auditions but absence permission was required to attend and was not always forthcoming. 

[Lusodancer]

17 minutes ago, Jane said:

I've been reading this thread with interest.  It seems to be from what I have read that ballet schools in particular dont provide a huge amount of help regarding auditions - please correct me if I have read this wrong.   If this is the case, where is the best place (website, social media page, other) to find audition information specifically regarding ballet?

I have been following this thread too.

As many have said ,the attitude of most musical theatre course colleges is very proactive in finding paid work fast and even through the courses. Many  colleges have to finish early every December to allow  for all the students appearing in panto, but at the end they can have almost a 90-95% success rate of placing graduates in some form of job within 6 months, which is very high.I know this from talking to students and college directors in the course of arranging competitions and festivals.  I would love to see the figures from ballet/ contemporary schools in this regard... or maybe not, for fear of counting beautifully fit and elegant barristas instead. 

 

My DD has made a personal wish list of over 50 companies, some big, some small, across three continents. She does her homework, researching company history, artistic directors, artists, and repertoire. Her school frequently share international auditions, not just in house but to the wider dance community, from the various sources on Facebook and also attend international events at which some  company directors can be found, with a view to the students being 'known' . We will probably prepare a portfolio  of photos and videos for some companies afar, plan to include the Grande Audition , and continue to attend as many international events as possible. Some of her friends ahead of her  in the process have given advice of how to do it, where to try and her travels have opened her eyes so she will be open to any offer. She will be one of the youngest and under 18 still when she finishes her diploma , so probably have to look at junior companies first. My DD will have her teaching diploma to fall back on and build on. She also has dual nationality with an EU passport.

 Let's continue this subject next January / February and maybe I will have more to offer . Right now , she is resting a lesion. so she is patiently suspending ambition. 

 

 There are very many auditions published on a half dozen Facebook pages , popping up every day. Link into one and others sites pop up . I watch Ballet Auditions ....., Audi-ti.tions, Worldwide Dance Audition Platform...., Ballet Company Auditions for 2020-2021,Dance Auditions Europe  and others. Interestingly it is the parents' generation (teachers, company officials) that use Facebook  so if you are a user , you will see things that the youngsters don't see in Instagram. So pay attention folks. It gives you an idea of the ages and criteria of some companies. I am scouring them now to guage an idea of how much it will cost my purse to send her of a grand tour of European auditions! Some like Grande Audition have a number of companies attending, and there is an elimination round and a repertoire of variations in the final round. It is expensive but if 8 or 9 companies are present  in the same place, then may be its worth it. Maybe we could start a feed here of potential openings? I am a firm believer that there is a company out there for everyone. It is just reaching far enough to find it. We have invested a lot in our DC's and whether we have help from schools or not in placements, this is the finally piece of the support/ encouragement that we can give. 

[Moneypenny]

At the end of the day, there is only so much support that a school can give and their influence is limited, it is the student who has to do their research, apply to the companies and chase the tiny possibility of a job all over Europe and the World. Until your child goes out there and experiences company auditions you have no idea just how brutal they can be, just how disheartening it can be and just how few ballet jobs there actually are. There are indeed many auditions, but you often have no idea whether there are actually any jobs going. At cattle call auditions hundreds turn up and at invited auditions you can be lucky to get past 10 minutes of barre ... which is pretty tough when you’ve paid hundreds of ponds for flights, hotels, train fares etc. It makes me shudder just thinking back on it all. The auditioning goes on for months and months, competition is fierce and whilst some will walk into jobs, rejection is very much the norm. Plan B’s and C’s are definitely a good idea ... as sadly I do not believe there is a company out there for everyone, there are simply too few jobs and many incredibly talented dancers out there.

[DD Driver]

Lusodancer - I think you have summed it up perfectly!

 

My DD has a few years to go before she starts auditioning seriously.  Nevertheless,  her full time school asks students to write up their Goals at the beginning of each year and then sits down with them one-on-one.  The clearer the goals - the more useful the discussion.  I help her with this - just as I do with my other children who are near the end of normal schooling. I look at longer term goals and then this informs the annual goals along the way. 

 

To be fair, I have seen many accounts of vocational schools doing a great deal to help their students prepare for the next step.  This tends to be in their final year.  This can be short term visits to companies, having AD's come into their own studios, preparing portfolios and much more I'm sure.  There is however a conflict of interest you might say.  For example,  they will be a bit cautious about shopping their best talent around to other companies, they do expect students to stay til the end of the graduate year and their best selling point is always going to be whether they helped some students each year into their associated company.

 

The difference at an independent ballet school is that their business depends more on the success of the group as a whole.  In these schools, the AD's will usually attend international events and network - hard.  They can get on the phone and talk to contacts.  The more the student/parent ask for help - the more you get.

 

Most importantly, I think a parent can do a lot if they stay involved and actively talk to teachers and other parents/students.  I often embarrass my DD by talking to  people at her studio and events.  Then I explain to her - again - that I am funding this exercise and that you do things differently when you grow up (and have experience of sales & marketing).

Edited February 5, 2020 by DD Driver

[SMabbutt]

On 05/02/2020 at 21:27, Moneypenny said:

At the end of the day, there is only so much support that a school can give and their influence is limited, it is the student who has to do their research, apply to the companies and chase the tiny possibility of a job all over Europe and the World. Until your child goes out there and experiences company auditions you have no idea just how brutal they can be, just how disheartening it can be and just how few ballet jobs there actually are. There are indeed many auditions, but you often have no idea whether there are actually any jobs going. At cattle call auditions hundreds turn up and at invited auditions you can be lucky to get past 10 minutes of barre ... which is pretty tough when you’ve paid hundreds of ponds for flights, hotels, train fares etc. It makes me shudder just thinking back on it all. The auditioning goes on for months and months, competition is fierce and whilst some will walk into jobs, rejection is very much the norm. Plan B’s and C’s are definitely a good idea ... as sadly I do not believe there is a company out there for everyone, there are simply too few jobs and many incredibly talented dancers out there.

Interesting that according to a BBC report on work permits post Brexit that ballet dancers are in short supply in the UK. 

"A list of shortage occupations would be kept under review by the MAC, the government said.

Jobs currently on the MAC's Shortage Occupation List include civil engineers, medical practitioners, nurses, psychologists and classical ballet dancers."

[Bluebird22]

Short supply?!? Really! 

[Peanut68]

Hmmmm..... this definitely needs campaigning about! Too many of the top uk schools take too many overseas students imho (full & higher overseas rate fee payers too mostly I expect...) They are wooed by the direct/close links with companies & I expect fewer would take these training places if it were harder to gain a work permit/visa to take jobs in place of UK dancers.... well hello??? I see a real win win here..... more jobs for UK dancers (or ones that in first instance can not be straight away filled from overseas applicants) could mean more UK dance students  taken into the top places for UK training, in turn upping the numbers of high standard UK dancer graduates produced & so negating any need to say there is a shortage of UK dancers....

I hear the cry ‘but we need to be International & have the best from rest of the workd able to dance here’ I agee...so let the rest of the world offer reciprocal contracts to the best UK dancers. One in, one out, dancer exchange or loan programmes, guest artist contracts but we must ensure it provides the best home & International opportunities for our homegrown & home trained dancers - especially for any dance company/institution that is funded from any government (taxpayer) coffers.....Just my perusing spur of omens thoughts....

Edited February 19, 2020 by Peanut68
Typo

[Anon2]

9 hours ago, SMabbutt said:

Interesting that according to a BBC report on work permits post Brexit that ballet dancers are in short supply in the UK. 

"A list of shortage occupations would be kept under review by the MAC, the government said.

Jobs currently on the MAC's Shortage Occupation List include civil engineers, medical practitioners, nurses, psychologists and classical ballet dancers."

I don’t know whether to laugh or cry at that. Surely the government can look at their own statistics at those coming out of vocational schools following DaDA funding and tracking the number that get ‘paid’ employment in ballet companies. 
I don’t know if those that had student finance are tracked by their training institutes. 

[rowan]

I’ve been checking some facts on the questions you posed.

Advice about where to apply? - Yes, but DD also applied for everything she could find. Was offered lots of auditions at major and smaller companies. Sometimes had to turn auditions down because the dates clashed with other auditions. Hard choices had to be made here. She turned down auditions in the USA, because of the likelihood of not getting a work visa, and the expense made it unfeasible for us.

Was help given in school to make rehearse/ plan/produce audition dvds ( or online equivalent) ? -Not needed. Took headshots on her phone. No arty shots. But did have access to professionally filmed stage work. She edited and set up everything herself. I think help would have been given if needed.

 

Were company artistic directors invited into school or for a special performance? - No. But school did get her a couple of auditions through contacts.
 

Were solos choreographed/ rehearsed by staff for auditions?  - Not needed. DD already had solos to use. But these had been rehearsed by staff originally.

 

Or were the dancers ( or parents?) left pretty much to sort this sort of stuff out on their own? - Much of the legwork was done by DD, though the school helped where it could. As parents, we had no involvement at all, apart from forking out for flights/hostels, etc.
 

DD did not attend one of the well known vocational schools. I suppose if she had attended RBS or the worldwide equivalents, it would have been easier. However, she always made the last round everywhere she auditioned and had several job offers. Most of her auditions were cattle call. As had been said, there are hundreds at these auditions, with talented ballet dancers from across the world and competition is tough. Just to give an idea of the possible competition, sometimes she was up against a soloist from one company trying for a corps position in another. Or a load of ballet dancers made redundant from another national company. In one of the major German companies, she made the last four, with the jobs eventually going to Vaganova school graduates. 

[Bex does ballet]

Thank you for your well thought out and topical reply Rowan. Food for thought and a little much- needed optimism ( all be it, tempered by realistic expectations) I really appreciate the insight 

[rowan]

To be frank, I’m not sure that anyone should be optimistic about chances of getting a job in ballet. In fact, realistically, it’s downright idiotic to aim for it. You are much more likely to get a decent dancing job if you aim for other types of dance.  It’s hard to comprehend when your child is younger and all things seem possible, no matter how much you read about the odds.
 

[glowlight]

An honest reflection Rowan, and I don't disagree that you are much more likely to get a decent dancing job in other types of dance,  but if people didn't have dreams and aim to reach them there would be no ballet companies, no theatre, no orchestras, no elite sportsman, no doctors, no research scientists, no astronauts (sorry got lost on a tangent there)!

 

I love the saying...'If you shoot for the moon you might land among the stars'.

 

Aim high - you may not end up where you thought you would but you but you will hopefully end up somewhere better than if you tried.

 

I remember my dd, in her final year of training, sitting us down and explaining how narrow the odds are of getting a ballet job.  Quickly followed by her saying she was going to audition for every dance job she could.  She didn't end up working as a ballet dancer, but did have wonderful experiences working as a dancer on cruise ships.

[Moneypenny]

And the pay, benefits and lifestyle can be incredible with some cruise lines. The competition for cruise jobs is just as fierce though as some companies are auditioning all over the world all year round!