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Is this fair?


beaglemum

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I was recently trying to help my sister who has a 6 year  DD who dances with a situation that she is aware of at her studio.

Some of the students there are lucky enough to be studying at stage schools but when it’s exam time they are always entered for exams after hardly being at classes but managing to get higher marks than everybody else?

if they are at stage school should they still be allowed to take regular dance exams at all? 

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10 minutes ago, beaglemum said:

I was recently trying to help my sister who has a 6 year  DD who dances with a situation that she is aware of at her studio.

Some of the students there are lucky enough to be studying at stage schools but when it’s exam time they are always entered for exams after hardly being at classes but managing to get higher marks than everybody else?

if they are at stage school should they still be allowed to take regular dance exams at all? 

Hi. Your post doesn’t mention whether the pupils concerned are also 6yrs old or are they older pupils. 
If the school/studio has no problem with their pupils attending two establishments then I can’t see any problem.
could bring into question though the level of training at the school/studio if pupils that only attend their lessons are awarded lower marks. But at 6 there would be so few exams they would have entered anyway to compare against. 
Maybe seek more info from your sister to fully understand the situation. It could be just one pupil taking one exam that attends the two establishments. 6yrs old is still very young. 
Hope my answer makes sense. 

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Don't worry about what marks the others are getting especially at this age. Dance is so much more than a percentage mark of an exam. There is a lot that seems unfair in dance. Some children get far more opportunities and training due to their families being better off financially. Some have private lesson after private lesson and some go to stage school. Also good exam results don't necessarily equate to "better dancer" . My daughters ballet teacher doesn't teach exam work as she says that she would rather teach children how to dance than teach them a syllabus to enable them to pass an exam. My daughter doesn't do exams, rarely has a private lesson, doesn't go to all the big events/workshops etc and she is still a very talented dancer who keeps up easily and at times is much better than the kids who get all of the opportunities. To be honest and I say this with respect (and a little bit of humour) lose the idea that things should be fair when it comes to dance because in my experience it is o e of the most unfair environments I have ever encountered.

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I see no reason why students at stage schools shouldn't be allowed to take regular dance exams.  RAD/ISTD/BBO exams are open to everyone (as long as they meet minimum age criteria), and have strict grading criteria, so from that point of view are very fair.

 

Dance is a competitive life, but your sister should try not to see dance exams as a competition.  They are a measure of the individual at that time.  Your little niece is still very young and there is plenty of time for her to gain in technique and confidence.

 

If your sister feels that her DD is disadvantaged, perhaps she should speak to her teachers about whether she could take extra classes to improve her performance in exams, or whether there is anything particular she can work on.  For my dd at that age it was performance and stage presence.

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17 minutes ago, MAX said:

joyofdance :  your daughters are in a good school with a smart teacher !  😊

She does have a very experienced and lovely ballet teacher Max. We have learnt a lot during our dancing journey and not all of it is good but one thing we have learnt and experienced over the years is that comparing yourself to others is pointless and soul destroying. My daughter is 15 and when she was around 8 there were girls in her dance school who totally out shone her. Now however she is out shining some of them. Every child develops at different times and we just need to let them have their own journey.

Edited by joyofdance
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Of course they should be allowed to take the exams. Exams are open to everybody, providing they meet any entry requirements (eg age) and everybody has to pay to enter. The dance studio is obviously happy to allow students to attend the stage school as well as the studio. Students should be entered for an exam when they are ready and not when they have attended a compulsory number of classes - exams depending on attendance would be unfair on all students, not just those going to stage school. And if they are getting higher marks then they were clearly ready for the exam at that time.

Comparing one student with another is really a pointless exercise - especially at such a young age. All dancers are on an individual journey - they develop at different times and each will have their own strengths and weaknesses.  Certainly at such a young age dance should be about enjoyment and the exams are just a sort of bonus as they get a certificate and a sense of achievement.

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It is also worth remembering that correlation and causation are not the same thing. Even if the children who also attend the other establishment do consistently achieve high marks it is not necessarily because of going there. It could equally be that the most able children are being "cherry picked" by the other place, or there could be some other independent variable that is resulting in the difference. 

But whatever it is, it is probably best not to dwell on it. As long as your niece is doing the best she can and is having fun, that is all that really matters at this stage. And at 6 years old, the fun is absolutely the most important thing of all. 

Theodore  Roosevelt's famous quote is not universally true in my opinion, but for 6 year old dancers I think it is - comparison is the thief of joy in situations like this.

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If the stage school kids hardly attend any classes they will still be paying termly. they’ll be supplementing your nieces classes so that she can be taught in a lower ratio of kids to the teacher. I’d see that as a positive! Also they are likely to be doing some dance at the stage school so it’s not surprising that they get better marks. 

Edited by Peony
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Exams are there for everyone, if they wish to ensure a certain standard is being reached. Whether you pass an exam with a pass or distinction, regardless of the mark, a certain standard has been met and that’s the point. Most students whether at vocational or not, will be wanting those markers as they train because it is helpful to know they are on course. 
The mark obtained is a personal achievement and nothing that can be compared to others working with different bodies and entirely different issues. At the end of the day, no Director of a classical company or West End choreographer is going to give two hoots what mark you got for any of your exams whether it be primary or advanced, as most of the world do not take exams and manage perfectly well without them,  if not better!

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Well whether you take exams or not is one thing but you need some sort of "syllabus" even if it's not a very prescriptive one like RAD or BBO etc etc 

The teacher still has to have a good idea at what stage to introduce different steps into classes even if she has her own made up "syllabus" 

Of course you have to teach children how to dance .....or rather give them the experience of expressing themselves through their dancing but they have to have the step vocabulary to do this nevertheless so some sort of format has to be followed whether you call it an official syllabus or not. 

Regards this very young child ... at six years old it's probably not a good idea to be focussing too much on exams I don't think any children should be taking formal external exams before the age of 7 to be frank ...just my view. 

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On 16/12/2019 at 02:34, beaglemum said:

but when it’s exam time they are always entered for exams after hardly being at classes but managing to get higher marks than everybody else?

 

"Comparison is the thief of joy" as they say ...

 

Why does it matter if other children receive higher marks? Other children will get lower marks, as well. This has little do with "fairness" in the way you phrase it, but to do with ability and facility. 

 

What would be unfair is if there were obvious bias or prejudice in the marking.

 

But otherwise, anyone who can take the exam, and is entered in the correct way, should be allowed to take it. It's not an issue of "fairness."

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Thank you all for your interesting comments I realise though I made a huge error reading back on this now 

she is 16 and not 6 😳 

Obviously the stage school kids have an advantage over the other ones at the school and they seem to be the ‘ class favourites’ but at 16 I’ve told her that it’s up to her if she stays or not. 
My sister is wanting to mention it to the teacher but I managed to talk her out of that!

So glad that my DD quit dance last year as she took her GCSE’s I don’t miss being a dance mum at all and she’s happy in what she’s doing ( non dance related) 

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When you say stage school it’s not obvious what you mean. Are you talking about a full time vocational school such as Sylvia Young, Italia Conti or Arts Ed (in which case I’d have thought they’d be entered for exams there), an Associate type training scheme such as West End Kids or a Saturday part time school such as Stagecoach or Razzamatazz?

 

Either way any student who reaches the required standard and pays their exam entry fee is entitled to be entered. 

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I know someone who was at full time vocational school which didn't put students in for exams with a particular examining body. So the teacher at their previous school entered them for one of the higher exams instead. One might say that it could have been unfair on other recreational candidates taking the same exam on the same day, but the examiner is marking the individual in front of them, and not comparing them one against another. The student was as entitled as anyone else to take the exam.

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15 hours ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

When you say stage school it’s not obvious what you mean. Are you talking about a full time vocational school such as Sylvia Young, Italia Conti or Arts Ed (in which case I’d have thought they’d be entered for exams there), an Associate type training scheme such as West End Kids or a Saturday part time school such as Stagecoach or Razzamatazz?

 

Either way any student who reaches the required standard and pays their exam entry fee is entitled to be entered. 

Its a full time vocational one 

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When my dds studied for LAMDA exams for drama, the place where the exams were taken was the nexus for many schools and private entrants. There were pupils from their drama school, pupils from a few of the local private schools in Cambridge, private entrants from my dds’ ballet school and more. No one thought anything of it. Everyone had done the work and it was up to the examiner to mark them. 

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Beaglemum, thanks for clarifying the age as 16 not 6 as I do indeed think that there is an issue....not so much re: entering exams & the fairness of marking. More full time vocationals feeling they need to supplement their training elsewhere.... clearly not getting all they want/need (?) at main school. This does happen I know; to add in different genres/different examining bodies/satisfy obsessive parents/pupils who think they should dance every single day of their lives/maybe to continue with a syllabus previously studied to not lose out other options such as teacher training/trying to get ahead of the game/ be better than peers in vocational class....

So some good reasons some not so crystal clear & some just nuts.

At 16 however these likely to be more savvy students quite probably have a negative affect on the more regular class members where they may feel less able with things like speed to pick up work, stamina & then also those things like confidence, pushing to take front row/limelight/main parts, body image/looks etc.

Can also have a positive affect too by raising the level of classes & introducing perhaps a healthy element of comparison & competitiveness.... the dance world of work let’s face it is only ever going to get tougher in these areas so an early intro may actually help to toughened/strengthen a youngsters resolve/skin/passion. 

I feel like I’m rambling now but basically I think it is something I’d raise more as a discussion on these elements with the school principal  & possibly I would ask if additional classes with non vocationals could be added instead or as extras & perhaps exam entrants not be mixed to avoid any on the day anxieties that I think are potentially quite real....that a vocational v non voc student will be seen as better. The examiner will merely see entrants doing their thing in front of them & judge & Mark according to their guidelines so yes, higher trained or better able may do better. But it’s that unquantifiable thing of did the non voc pupil not do their best in the exam due to feeling second class by merely being next to a vocational pupil? Of course we can all say they shouldn’t let that affect them & if entered at say RAD HQ they may be with strangers from who knows where do they should just put on the blinkers & focus solely on what they themselves are doing. But let’s face it, can any of us do that? 

Good luck for discussions; I think you have opened an interesting debate here... maybe it seemed a little crazy when we all thought these were 6/8 year olds 🤣

But aged 16+ it is a whole different thing!

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Agree with Peanut 68.  As an aside, when my musical DD was at Junior Conservatoire, the opinion was that entering as private candidates, or with old teachers, would boost results by 10 marks on average compared with being examined at the conservatoire.  Somewhat ironic as a condition of taking lessons at JD was that you didn't take them elsewhere. Equally ironically, none of the full time conservatoires care about which exams you have passed anyway.  

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Actually, in this case, what bothers me is the way exam marks are moderated by some examining boards.  Before results are issued they are all checked at HQ to make sure that nothing stands out as abnormal.  This started with the best of intentions to make sure examiners mark in a similar fashion.  However, the scheme seems to have moved towards making sure that each school gets the expected results and I have heard several teachers complain about this.  If their top level is normally mainly High Merits for example, but then the school has a very strong group one year, these candidates would not necessarily get Distinctions, but be awarded the expected top level for that school, i.e. High Merits and other candidates marked lower accordingly.  

 

So if strong students are coming in from Vocational training elsewhere, but they are still nominally being entered by the ordinary school in question, yes this could mean the rest of the candidates receive lower marks.

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2 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Actually, in this case, what bothers me is the way exam marks are moderated by some examining boards.  Before results are issued they are all checked at HQ to make sure that nothing stands out as abnormal.  This started with the best of intentions to make sure examiners mark in a similar fashion.  However, the scheme seems to have moved towards making sure that each school gets the expected results and I have heard several teachers complain about this.  If their top level is normally mainly High Merits for example, but then the school has a very strong group one year, these candidates would not necessarily get Distinctions, but be awarded the expected top level for that school, i.e. High Merits and other candidates marked lower accordingly.  

 

So if strong students are coming in from Vocational training elsewhere, but they are still nominally being entered by the ordinary school in question, yes this could mean the rest of the candidates receive lower marks.


good point, I think it is just the RAD who do this?

agree with the others that at 16 it could be quite a negative experience for your niece if they are mixing recreational dancers and those in full time training

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If their vocational school doesn't do exams then there is a very good reason for them taking the exams at their old school instead. UCAS points are awarded for higher level exams with several of the examining bodies. Could well be needed in future if they are only doing level 3 or 4 qualifications at the moment and want to take a degree-level performing arts course in the future.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I was just about to say that Taxi about UCAS. A lot of theatre or ballet organisations don’t get it when students are keen to do an exam because as Meadowblythe says, they don’t care too much anyway. 
 

but for the op, the key word I’m picking up on here is “favouritism” and I can completely understand the negative effects of this. 
 

whilst I also agree “comparison is the thief of joy” and “get rid of any beliefs of fairness” I also don’t think that anyone should put up with a sub standard experience through favouritism. It’s really harmful and fuels lots of self doubt and feelings of inadequacy. The aim is really to get your niece feeling good about what she’s doing regardless of what others are doing but also making sure she’s getting an equal proportion and quality of teaching. 
 

im sure there’s a few of us who can think of times where favouritism has made our own dcs feel rubbish. I personally don’t have a problem with favouritism UNLESS it takes away from someone else. Then it’s a huge problem. In those cases, forget what you hear about not comparing because you do need to compare the quality and proportion of training being given that your sister is paying for. 
 

I had a situation once where a favourite pupil was having private lessons to get extra tuition on a non voc exam grade and then the teacher was using her to “teach” the non favourites whilst she caught up on admin and parent conversations! In that case, yep, I said something. 
 

Can you tell us more about the impact on your niece? What is it that seems unfair? 
 

it would be great if she could find a way to be inspired, motivated, and learn from the ft stage school kids without paying those extortionate fees! :) 

Edited by annaliesey
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It’s a shame if RAD are still moderating exam results, I’m not sure moderators should be impacting on UCAS points and I also feel they are demonstrating that they are not trusting the examiner to do their job, an examiner who they may have trained . I’m guessing that whilst UK Vocational schools still have unqualified teachers teaching I can understand RAD trained students returning to their old schools to take Advanced 2 should they wish to enter the International Genee or attend say KS Dance to take Chechetti Intermediate so they can enter the Barbara Geoghan.  I’m relieved she is 16 I was quite worried about a mum being this anxious over 6 year old exam results ! 

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10 hours ago, Canary said:

It’s a shame if RAD are still moderating exam results, I’m not sure moderators should be impacting on UCAS points and I also feel they are demonstrating that they are not trusting the examiner to do their job, an examiner who they may have trained .

 

Moderation is an integral part of all public examinations -  I mean in education in general, not only in ballet. I'm sure that in order for RAD exams to be accredited by OFQUAL then they are obliged to have a system of moderation. Otherwise they couldn't guarantee fairness and consistency in marking.

Edited by The_Red_Shoes
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I think the RAD system of moderation is much fairer and more transparent than LAMDA drama exams for example. 

 

RAD state

 

“Adjustments are made only where a consistent pattern of over- or under-marking is evident across the whole tour, which cannot reasonably be explained by a drop or increase in standard across all candidates; for example, where all candidates at a certain grade have dropped an average of 10 marks. It is for this reason that the common misconception that moderation means a school gets ‘locked in’ to a certain profile which can never change is wrong. However, moderation does not aim to remove any and all discrepancy of any kind: the examiner’s professional judgement will always remain the basis for results issued.”

 

so it’s not based on one school alone, but across all schools that particular examiner has examined at during that exam season. 

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