Fonty Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, LinMM said: The only ones I was pretty certain of were Vergie and Lesley and wasn’t sure if it was Laura in the last one or not! But many thanks for this info as the film quality wasn’t brilliant 😊 But the dancers were!! Sorry, Lin, I meant to put up who the dancers were. But if you click on More on the link I posted, it lists the dancers. I agree the film quality wasn't great, but the dancers shine through. On the subject of comparisons, I have often felt recently that the Bluebird pdd and solos were not quite as I remembered them as a child. A bit more digging on Youtube, and I found the following. The first one is Choe and Campbell, both dancers I love to see. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZe0TFU75rI&list=RDBZe0TFU75rI&index=1 The second one is a longer clip of Sibley and Shaw, going back to 1963: (Shaw appears to be wearing the crown from a Christmas cracker on his head).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlQcGWfmsl4 If you want to do a direct comparison with the first, move forward to about 4'45". But it would be a pity to miss out on such glorious dancing from Sibley. I think again these clips clearly show what has been gained, but also what has been lost. Choe has excellent technique, with beautiful legs and feet, but something is missing. Everything seems to be so carefully placed. Incidentally, I felt the same about Naghdi in the cinema relay. There is a wildness to Sibley's dancing that makes it very exciting. Her speed of movement adds a sharpness that makes you feel that this is someone who is really being taught how to fly, and will swoop away any minute. Edited January 22, 2020 by Fonty 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 37 minutes ago, capybara said: One of the dancers is, of course, .... Yes of course, sorry I didn't notice this error in the blurb when I copied this link. Chisato is one to watch, as are many others at the RB! Unfortunately it appears, from her social media, that she has been out injured for a while. Wishing her back a.s.a.p. ........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xandra Newman Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 31 minutes ago, Fonty said: I think again these clips clearly show what has been gained, but also what has been lost. Choe has excellent technique, with beautiful legs and feet, but something is missing. Everything seems to be so carefully placed. Incidentally, I felt the same about Naghdi in the cinema relay. There is a wildness to Sibley's dancing that makes it very exciting. Her speed of movement adds a sharpness that makes you feel that this is someone who is really being taught how to fly, and will swoop away any minute. I am stating the obvious here Fonty, yes times have changed: the training of the current generation of ballet dancers is very different to the training dancers had a few decades ago, their bodies have also changed, their turn-out and extensions are different, and their coaches are different. Whenever I watch actors/actresses in a 50's and 60s Hollywood movies they also act very differently compared to the current generation of actors/actresses. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnS Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 What a fabulous way to end this Sleeping Beauty run with Sunday’s encore. I’d had my appetite well and truly whetted by so many comments about Thursday’s live relay and, after a trip to a London, I was very pleased to be back in Penrith in time to get to the cinema. Fumi Kaneko really was radiant and I wish I’d seen her Lilac Fairy during the run. This was an exquisite petit four after three Onegins and the ENB Gala over Friday/Saturday, a feast to remember. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Lin Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Can we stop the racist comments about Chinese people? They're very hurtful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ivy Lin said: Can we stop the racist comments about Chinese people? They're very hurtful. Sorry, Ivy Lin, am I missing something? I haven't seen any racist comments, either about Chinese people or anyone else, and I am certain that they wouldn't be allowed on this forum in the unlikely event that, I would hope, any poster was inclined to make them. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 I can’t see any racist comments either. A couple of people have posted their personal opinions on the Chinese style of classical ballet, indicating that they don’t like it. That is not racist. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janite Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, Ivy Lin said: Can we stop the racist comments about Chinese people? They're very hurtful. I have no wish to be racist, though it may well be that I accidentally am. Could you please say which comments were racist so I can be sure to express myself differently another time. Edited January 22, 2020 by Janite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 hours ago, Fonty said: On the subject of comparisons, I have often felt recently that the Bluebird pdd and solos were not quite as I remembered them as a child. A bit more digging on Youtube, and I found the following. Fonty I looked at some of the Bluebirds over the years a while back (a digression on an Ashton thread) and made some observations .... here, if of interest. https://www.balletcoforum.com/topic/13028-frederick-ashton-his-works-and-his-style/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-277034 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Richard LH said: Fonty I looked at some of the Bluebirds over the years a while back (a digression on an Ashton thread) and made some observations .... here, if of interest. https://www.balletcoforum.com/topic/13028-frederick-ashton-his-works-and-his-style/page/3/?tab=comments#comment-277034 Thanks Richard. I remember that discussion. Maybe some of the points on here and elsewhere relating to past and present style could be copied and pasted into a new thread. I have found the comments on here on that topic really interesting, not to mention the links posted. But these points on the techniques of today v the past tend to get lost after a while, which is a shame. Edited January 22, 2020 by Fonty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard LH Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Just now, Fonty said: Thanks Richard. I remember that discussion. Maybe some of these points could be copied and pasted into a new thread. Maybe called past and present style or something like that? I have found many of the comments on here really interesting, not to mention the links posted. But these points on the techniques of today v the past tend to get lost after a while, which is a shame. Good idea.....I think this is a subject that is bound to keep recurring and potentially could be very informative, whilst respecting that different people will prefer different styles and ballet eras. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katharine kanter Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Concerning the allegedly racialist remarks "someone" (?) had made recently, Miss Lin may I imagine, have been referring to the author of these lines. Which is a bit of a scream, for those who might know the author of these lines ... Be that as it may, Shun Yen is NOT a ballet troupe. It describes itself as a "dance" troupe. Its members may use the turnout and some "balletic" ports de bras, but are essentially contortionists and acrobats. Unfortunately, most audience members at the present time are so used to seeing leg-waving, the splits and 195° turnout on the "legitimate" stage, that they draw little or no distinction between so-called "classical" dance, and troupes like Shun Yen, of which there are dozens - and most of them are most definitely not Chinese. China's main difficulty is that for decades, the only ballet teachers who visited China were Russian. And as the "Vaganova" School declined, the Chinese found themselves willy-nilly the hosts to Russian teachers who taught a technique and style Agrippina Vaganova herself would have rejected, flat-out. I happen to be half-Russian (partly of Mongol origin, BTW), and am nevertheless extremely critical of what passes for "Vaganova" School today. Much of it I consider to be either contorsionism, or in appallingly bad taste, ever since dear ol' Russia decided to out-Guillem Guillem, in the late 1980s. Not to speak of the Grigorievich-Goleizovsky business, another rather grim chapter in Russian theatrical history ... Does that make me an anti-Russian or anti-Slav (!!!) racialist? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob S Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) Isn’t Shen Yun an American company? And having seen the Woking ticket prices I’d call them extortionists as well as contortionists 😮 Edited January 22, 2020 by Rob S 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 8 minutes ago, Rob S said: Isn’t Shen Yun an American company? And having seen the Woking ticket prices I’d call them extortionists as well as contortionists 😮 Yes they are, based in New York, and likewise re ticket prices. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivy Lin Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Shen Yun is not a Chinese ballet company. They're American. I object to however the wholesale dismissal of Chinese "dancers" in a way I find offensive, even when the dancers in question are not Chinese, as I mentioned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 Point of information: what is that faintly oriental-looking show one has been pressed to take a flyer for (for months now) when trying to leave the ROH quietly at the end of performances? The people thrusting the flyers have on occasion been so aggressive and persistent in their “handing out” of the sheets that I vaguely assumed this was not really to do with the arts, but some kind of cult, like Scientology or whatever, and they would be punished if they didn’t hit a certain target. But I may be doing the show, whatever it is/was, a disservice. It would be interesting to know if anyone actually bought a ticket to whatever this is (apologies but as I haven’t kept any of the flyers, taken only to stop being harassed, so don’t know the name). And to know what it was like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob S Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 3 minutes ago, Geoff said: Point of information: what is that faintly oriental-looking show one has been pressed to take a flyer for (for months now) when trying to leave the ROH quietly at the end of performances? The people thrusting the flyers have on occasion been so aggressive and persistent in their “handing out” of the sheets that I vaguely assumed this was not really to do with the arts, but some kind of cult, like Scientology or whatever, and they would be punished if they didn’t hit a certain target. But I may be doing the show, whatever it is/was, a disservice. It would be interesting to know if anyone actually bought a ticket to whatever this is (apologies but as I haven’t kept any of the flyers, taken only to stop being harassed, so don’t know the name). And to know what it was like. That’s Shen Yun 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Geoff said: Point of information: what is that faintly oriental-looking show one has been pressed to take a flyer for (for months now) when trying to leave the ROH quietly at the end of performances? The people thrusting the flyers have on occasion been so aggressive and persistent in their “handing out” of the sheets that I vaguely assumed this was not really to do with the arts, but some kind of cult, like Scientology or whatever, and they would be punished if they didn’t hit a certain target. But I may be doing the show, whatever it is/was, a disservice. It would be interesting to know if anyone actually bought a ticket to whatever this is (apologies but as I haven’t kept any of the flyers, taken only to stop being harassed, so don’t know the name). And to know what it was like. I think that might be Shen Yun. I've been offered leaflets for them many times outside Sadler's Wells at any rate, and was offered one outside the ROH recently. I took one the first time offered but could see I would have no interest in them so I don't take them now. (And I had also assumed they were Chinese, not unreasonably I think given the name. But any negativity about such 'dancers' is clearly related to what they do, not to where they come from.) Edited January 22, 2020 by bridiem 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 2 minutes ago, Rob S said: That’s Shen Yun 34 minutes ago, katharine kanter said: Shun Yen is NOT a ballet troupe. It describes itself as a "dance" troupe. Its members may use the turnout and some "balletic" ports de bras, but are essentially contortionists and acrobats. ...in which case I think I know enough now. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryrosesatonapin Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 1 hour ago, Geoff said: It would be interesting to know if anyone actually bought a ticket to whatever this is (apologies but as I haven’t kept any of the flyers, taken only to stop being harassed, so don’t know the name). And to know what it was like. A well-intentioned friend got us tickets one year and I went out of sheer curiosity. And you are correct - it is a kind of cult, @Geoff. They had a number of well-drilled acrobatic-style 'dances' lasting maybe 10 minutes each against an electronic backdrop, with rather garish costumes. I seem to remember there was also some kind of talk and a couple of numbers which were simplistic propaganda against the Chinese government. It was altogether a rather strange and uncomfortable experience which I would not want to repeat. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, Xandra Newman said: I am stating the obvious here Fonty, yes times have changed: the training of the current generation of ballet dancers is very different to the training dancers had a few decades ago, their bodies have also changed, their turn-out and extensions are different, and their coaches are different. Whenever I watch actors/actresses in a 50's and 60s Hollywood movies they also act very differently compared to the current generation of actors/actresses. But it is a sad thing when this different training doesn't actually improve the dancing IMO. It is glaringly obvious when you watch different eras dancing the same choreography that a great deal has been lost, in order to gain....what, exactly? We are always hearing that today's dancers are much better technically than they were 40 years ago, but I am not seeing that. Apparently they dance with more attack than their predecessors. I have heard this time and again, and I am still not sure what it means. To me, it suggests they dance faster, but they clearly don't. So what is it exactly they are "attacking?" And if the modern training means that dancers cannot cope with the original music being played at the speed it was meant to be played at, then there is something wrong with the training, surely? Regarding the different style of acting compared with that in the 50s and 60s Hollywood, that has as much to do with the subject matter as anything. A kitchen sink drama is going to require a different style of acting to the sort of light comedies that Cary Grant and Marilyn Monroe excelled at. I don't know about you, but I can watch those old black and white movies over and over, and still enjoy them. Edited January 22, 2020 by Fonty 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 36 minutes ago, Fonty said: Apparently they dance with more attack than their predecessors. I have heard this time and again, and I am still not sure what it means. To me, it suggests they dance faster, but they clearly don't. So what is it exactly they are "attacking?" And if the modern training means that dancers cannot cope with the original music being played at the speed it was meant to be played at, then there is something wrong with the training, surely? Regarding the different style of acting compared with that in the 50s and 60s Hollywood, that has as much to do with the subject matter as anything. A kitchen sink drama is going to require a different style of acting to the sort of light comedies that Cary Grant and Marilyn Monroe excelled at. I don't know about you, but I can watch those old black and white movies over and over, and still enjoy them. I would have said that the dancers in the older clips showed more attack. I wasn't a ballet watcher until mid-way through 1984 so a lot of these older clips are new to me and I have really been enjoying them. Given that some of the dancers in the films are now (or have been) coaches why are they not coaching to the style that they danced? My friend and I spent many happy hours watching the old screwball comedies on BBC2 on Saturday afternoon. They were so witty and so sharp. I actually prefer the older style of film rather than the "hit you over the head with it" approach of many of today's films. Something like "Sometimes, Always, Never" and "Knives Out" stand out like beacons. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 6 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said: My friend and I spent many happy hours watching the old screwball comedies on BBC2 on Saturday afternoon. They were so witty and so sharp. I actually prefer the older style of film rather than the "hit you over the head with it" approach of many of today's films. Something like "Sometimes, Always, Never" and "Knives Out" stand out like beacons. Didn't see the former, but I loved the latter. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted January 22, 2020 Share Posted January 22, 2020 18 minutes ago, Fonty said: Didn't see the former, but I loved the latter. If you get the chance to see Sometimes, Always, Never beg, steal or borrow a ticket. It's a film about a dysfunctional family who played scrabble. The opening scenes are on the beach near me, where the Iron Men are. It is a tour de force for Bill Nighe. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnstar Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 In the last week I've watched Sleeping Beauties from Stuttgart & La Scala and was very surprised at how different choreographically both were from the RB's & from each other. I knew that Swan Lake has lots of different versions but hadn't realised Sleeping Beauty evidently has too. I was wondering if there is an "authentic" version of Sleeping Beauty & how near the RB's version is to that? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted April 3, 2020 Share Posted April 3, 2020 The RB's is probably one of the most "authentic" around, being based on the notation Sergeyev smuggled out of Russia, but a decade or more ago the Kirov (or Mariinsky - can't remember what they were called at the time) brought a longer version to London which I think they claimed was more authentic still. I'm sure FLOSS will be along to say more ... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeannette Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 (edited) Alison, you’re thinking about the late Sergei Vikharev’s 1999 staging for the Mariinsky, based on the Sergeev-Stepanov notations. Unfortunately, the changes were too shocking for “Mariinsky Powers” so Vikharev was cajoled into reverting to the USSR versions of several dances, such as Prince Desire’s pdd solo...but the great coup of that (Vikharev) staging is that it incorporates the original 1890 designs by Vsevolovsky. Imperial Romanov splendor to the max! Perhaps the staging that’s most faithful to the Sergeev-Stepanov notes is Ratmansky’s 2015 version for ABT...but with relatively cheap-looking decors/costumes (bland attempt at Bakst 1921...cheap fabrics). In many respects, the current RB version is most satisfying, overall. Derived from the traditional Sergeev-Stepanov AND with gorgeous substantive designs, as the 1946 Oliver Messel creations are, IMO, second to none. Win-win situation! Edited April 4, 2020 by Jeannette 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stucha Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 Thanks @jeanette. The Vsevolovsky designs are the least interesting part of that particular Mariinsky production for me. The sets and costumes for ABT's version are much more interesting but suffer from having to be made for touring. I am probably in a minority of one in loving Dowell's production particularly the sets and costumes. Absolutely fantastical as a fairy tale should be. It got away from the heavy burden of tradition and offered something radically new and different. So disappointing that it was ditched. Too shocking for most people. @Dawnstar I have to say that I loved the Stuttgart version. Quite different and individual. It really gave prominence to male dancing and the sets and costumes by Jurgen Rose were lovely particularly those of act 3 which were the very essence of 19th century story book characters. Just marvellous detailing in the design and colour. Unfortunately ElIsa Badenes reminded me of a certain English princess and I couldn't get her out of my head which kind of spoiled the experience of watching it. 😏 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lizbie1 Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 1 hour ago, stucha said: Quite different and individual. It really gave prominence to male dancing and the sets and costumes by Jurgen Rose were lovely particularly those of act 3 which were the very essence of 19th century story book characters. Off topic, but can someone point me to any designs by Jurgen Rose which *don't* work? I think some people here dislike his Concerto designs, but plenty of others love them, including me! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dawnstar Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 6 hours ago, stucha said: @Dawnstar I have to say that I loved the Stuttgart version. Quite different and individual. It really gave prominence to male dancing and the sets and costumes by Jurgen Rose were lovely particularly those of act 3 which were the very essence of 19th century story book characters. Just marvellous detailing in the design and colour. Unfortunately ElIsa Badenes reminded me of a certain English princess and I couldn't get her out of my head which kind of spoiled the experience of watching it. 😏 I thought having a male principal dancing Carabosse was the biggest difference for the Stuttgart production. I remember seeing the previous RB production with Dowell as Carabosse on TV years ago but from what I remember the role was a mime/character one so not actually too different from the female Carabosses in the current production. Whereas Reilly doing so much actual dancing, including lots of jumps, was completely unexpected. I agree the Stuttgart sets & costumes were very attractive. In particular I thought Aurora's 3rd act tutu was one of the loveliest tutus I've seen. Fortunately I didn't have any issues with Badenes! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted April 4, 2020 Share Posted April 4, 2020 5 hours ago, Lizbie1 said: Off topic, but can someone point me to any designs by Jurgen Rose which *don't* work? Always stunningly beautiful in my opinion. Was heartbroken when the National Ballet of Canada ditched his Onegin designs for much inferior ones by Santo Loquasto. I think Tatiana's third act red dress is one of the most beautiful costumes in ballet. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stucha Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 @Lizbie1 I would love to see his designs for Mayerling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
now voyager Posted April 5, 2020 Share Posted April 5, 2020 7 hours ago, stucha said: @Lizbie1 I would love to see his designs for Mayerling. They are stunning! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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