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8 minutes ago, Rob S said:

Guess the Aurora:

 

Is this a trick question? I reckon they are all Aurora. :unsure:

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Ballet is a highly aesthetic form of art and is loved, first of all, for its beauty. I regret very much that the majority of dancers choose now to dance in shoes with wide blocks. For me it is NOT beautiful. I remember very well the time when ballerinas' points were really pointed like on this photo of Galina Ulanova (37) as Aurora in 1947.

13254163_1054739611260620_8752913141074848254_n.jpg

Edited by Amelia
typo
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All those shoes look a tad clumpy to be honest I’m guessing it’s the same person in each clip? 
When I went to the Vaganova museum I was surprised how delicate some of the famous dancers shoes on display were! Have got used to seeing more modern shoes. 
I wish Id kept my last pair of pointe shoes... 35 years ago now ...my memory is ...not as pointy as Ulanova’s ones but not quite as clumpy as ones in Rob S’s clips. 
 

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11 minutes ago, Amelia said:

Ballet is a highly aesthetic form of art and is loved, first of all, for its beauty. I regret very much that the majority of dancers choose now to dance in shoes with wide blocks. For me it is NOT beautiful. I remember very well the time when ballerinas' points were really pointed like on this photo of Galina Ulanova (37) as Aurora in 1947.

13254163_1054739611260620_8752913141074848254_n.jpg

 

Anna Pavlova pointe shoes. Look at the thick ugly darning. But she was renowned for the beauty of her dancing.

 

60eef8020dc61ed37a887f7ac0da7e3d.jpg

 

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Are those very pointed pointe shoes, as in the above photo, still manufactured nowadays?

 

As far as I know they aren''t . All major pointe shoe manufactures sell pointe shoes with wide blocks (surely they are far better for the feet, avoiding bunions in between the toes and on the toes, etc.)

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2 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

3 hours ago, Nogoat said:

 

Not knowing Mr Hallberg's training regime does not disqualify @redshoesgirl2 making the statement...

 

but if he is not taking time to strengthen his upper body,  lifts are not going to work well or be easy.

 

Though it would disqualify her from stating...

 

but if he is not taking time to strengthen his upper body,  lifts are not going to work well or be easy.

 

But she chose to ask a question that none of us knows the answer to and which could lead to unreasonable and unfair speculation.

 

I've now been pointed to a post on a previous page where a question was asked, though the quote/response to which I responded (above) directly addressed a subsequent post that did not contain that earlier question.

 

On a forum such as this - one dealing with a complex mix of knowledge, opinions and emotions - clarity is key to avoid misunderstandings, especially when criticism/rebuke is concerned.

After all, we only have the written word - ok, we've also got links; and embedded videos; and pictures; and 'likes'; and messages; and moderators; but it's still a tricky communication medium.

 

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Are you sure they are Pavlova's shoes ....except that my memory is that they were hardly pointe shoes at all!!

Perhaps I'm remembering the wrong persons shoes....maybe there were some shoes there from before Pavlova? 

I can't remember whether you were allowed to take pictures in the Vaganova museum but if you were the other friends with me all had iPhones with them so may have taken a picture of this display. 

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And the answers are:

 

Naghdi

Hayward

Osipova

 

There are no winners tonight so the prize pot rolls over to next week and stands at an estimated 75p

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7 minutes ago, Rob S said:

And the answers are:

 

Naghdi

Hayward

Osipova

 

There are no winners tonight so the prize pot rolls over to next week and stands at an estimated 75p

 

Shouldn't the prize be a signed pointe shoe?! :D

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17 minutes ago, LinMM said:

Are you sure they are Pavlova's shoes ....except that my memory is that they were hardly pointe shoes at all!!

Perhaps I'm remembering the wrong persons shoes....maybe there were some shoes there from before Pavlova? 

I can't remember whether you were allowed to take pictures in the Vaganova museum but if you were the other friends with me all had iPhones with them so may have taken a picture of this display. 

It was Taglioni who barely had pointe shoes. Pavlova was the first to wear big blocks and had a leather sole to strengthen the insole. It was considered "cheating" back then.

 

Pavlova retouched all her pictures because she was sensitive about this. Here are other examples of her shoes:

 

f580e5b3963594b720b5f8214a983989.jpg

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Ah yes you must be right Ivy Lin .....as I know some of the pointe shoes were quite ancient and with one of the pairs ...must be Taglioni then ...the shoes didn't seem to have an awful lot of support at all in them.

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31 minutes ago, Rob S said:

And the answers are:

 

Naghdi

Hayward

Osipova

 

There are no winners tonight so the prize pot rolls over to next week and stands at an estimated 75p

I would have said from these photos that the platforms of these pointe shoes range from the smallest being Naghdi’s and the widest being Osipova’s. Naghdi’s certainly are not ‘colossal blocks’ and indeed the largest blocks of these three seem to be Osipova’s. 
 

 

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1 hour ago, bridiem said:

 

Shouldn't the prize be a signed pointe shoe?! :D

 

Oh don’t talk about talk to me about signed pointe shoes, I missed out on Tamara Rojo’s in the recent charity auction because I misjudged its end time!! 🙄

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1 hour ago, Legseleven said:

I would have said from these photos that the platforms of these pointe shoes range from the smallest being Naghdi’s and the widest being Osipova’s. Naghdi’s certainly are not ‘colossal blocks’ and indeed the largest blocks of these three seem to be Osipova’s. 
 

 

 

I do wish Osipova would go to Freed and get fitted there.  She has to do so much to her shoes that I’m sure wouldn’t be necessary if someone customised new shoes to suit her feet.  🙁 

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Answers to various points (pointes :) ) raised in this thread

1. Lifts in act 3 Wedding Pas:  these are not ever part of the choreographic text in Russia, and in previous versions of The Sleeping Beauty at the Royal Ballet, some dances did the lifts, while others did the other enchainement with arabesque développe efface.   The lifts themselves changed over the years, and have been done simple with Aurora just going straight into a sort of pas de chat position and being carried from one side to the other like this (I believe there is footage of Fonteyn doing it this way somewhere still).    The success of the way they are performed now, with développe croise,, depends very much on the proportions of Aurora.

Incidentally a lifted entrechat used to be staple diet before the pirouette which precedes the run into diagonal of fishes.

2. Generally speaking although successful lifts are of course somewhat dependant on physical strength, they are also dependant on the couple hearing the musical dynamics of the take off in the same way.   Even a very light ballerina weight wise may be heavy for a partner to lift if not coordinated with her partner - and vice versa (although all configurations can of course occur!)

3. There are different schools of thought as to how the fish dives should be managed.  The most exciting being when Aurora makes her second endedans turn go forward off the supporting leg  and dives - her Prince catches her.   As opposed to her doing two turns on balance and the Prince taking her into the fish.   

4  Platforms on shoes:  

A.  Many photographs from the past were retouched to show a very narrow point.   

B. Russian pointe shoes, especially of early to mid last century, were much narrower in the toes (and the Russian dancers did not balance for any length of time on one leg, in Rose Adagio or other. - in fact they didn’t take their arm up when balancing in attitude to give hand to the next partner).

C. Many if not most dancers use a wider platform when dancing the act 1 Aurora, as it is much easier to balance.   Many also darn around the edges to create a still wider platform.   It is easier to turn however on a narrower platform, and some  have been seen to favour a wide platform on the right foot and a narrower one on the left (on which most of the pirouettes are performed).

D. It would be interesting to see the old film of Nureyev and Seymour dancing act 3.   I am almost certain that they did not perform the lifts either.

E. And lastly, to make performing Odette/Odile in Swan lake dependant on whether the ballerina wishes, or can do 32 perfect fouettees is IMO  ludicrous.   One of the greatest would never have performed it then - Maya Plisetskaya...    Fonteyn always had difficulty...   They are used in the coda to dazzle the Prince, so if a manege is equally dazzling, it will not spoil the overall effect of the ballet!   Technical virtuosity and facility,  should be there to enable and enhance interpretation, not for their own sake...


 

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31 minutes ago, betterankles said:

  Technical virtuosity and facility should be there to enable and enhance interpretation, not for their own sake...

 

Exactly, although some (even some Directors) see it differently.

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Posé turns en manège are easier to do than fouettes.  But can look equally dazzling. And it returns us to the question is Ballet art, or circus?.  I prefer the former.    
 

In the case of Osipova she was able to do 32 fouettés before, and I’ve seen at least one video where she returned to the stage to repeat them.  So that’s two lots of 32 in short succession, which is pretty remarkable.  

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Saying that "many photographs were retouched to show a very narrow point" is misleading. The next thing we will hear, I am afraid, is that the old recordings were similarly retouched frame after frame. Enormous enlargement of the blocs is not a one person's illusion, it has happened relatively recently. I know very well from my own experience, after all I am not very young, how the blocs on the point shoes have been expanding and, having an opportunity to examine pointe shoes worn by dancers from a number of companies, over an extended period of time, I made the comment that the Royal Ballet, unfortunately, has been at the forefront of this tendency, deplored by coaches and teachers. A direct comparison of the pointe shoes used for the same role by Fonteyn and by Nuñez shows the extent of the process. I was staring at them in a state of shock accompanied by colleagues from the Vaganova Academy and from Hamburg Ballett who were visiting London.

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1 hour ago, betterankles said:

D. It would be interesting to see the old film of Nureyev and Seymour dancing act 3.   I am almost certain that they did not perform the lifts either.

 

 

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21 minutes ago, assoluta said:

Saying that "many photographs were retouched to show a very narrow point" is misleading. The next thing we will hear, I am afraid, is that the old recordings were similarly retouched frame after frame. Enormous enlargement of the blocs is not a one person's illusion, it has happened relatively recently. I know very well from my own experience, after all I am not very young, how the blocs on the point shoes have been expanding and, having an opportunity to examine pointe shoes worn by dancers from a number of companies, over an extended period of time, I made the comment that the Royal Ballet, unfortunately, has been at the forefront of this tendency, deplored by coaches and teachers. A direct comparison of the pointe shoes used for the same role by Fonteyn and by Nuñez shows the extent of the process. I was staring at them in a state of shock accompanied by colleagues from the Vaganova Academy and from Hamburg Ballett who were visiting London.

 

They are no larger now then during the 70s...   western ballerinas always favoured square platforms (more or less large as wished), Russian ones less square and not flat, so balance was extremely difficult.

One of the difficulties with hand made pointe shoes such as Freed’s, is that the platform while flat, occasionally can do so at an angle, forcing over the instep, or not allowing the dancer comfortably to get to full pointe but remaining slightly back of it.  Occasionally even tilting to one side, making the dancer ‘roll’ or ‘sickle’.

Hence the enormous amount of time choosing the best shoe for each floor and according to the technical demands of the ballet danced.

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35 minutes ago, assoluta said:

I made the comment that the Royal Ballet, unfortunately, has been at the forefront of this tendency, deplored by coaches and teachers

 

Assoluta - it would be helpful if you could supply some names or pictures of current dancers whose shoes you consider closer to the ideal so that we can draw a comparison.

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42 minutes ago, Richard LH said:

Back to The Sleeping Beauty.....Akane is back and on top form !☺

Thanks Richard LH - that was the news I was waiting (and hoping) to hear!

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1 hour ago, FionaE said:

In the case of Osipova she was able to do 32 fouettés before, and I’ve seen at least one video where she returned to the stage to repeat them.  So that’s two lots of 32 in short succession, which is pretty remarkable.  

 

Not only "before" as on this video below, with a whole variety of Fouettés. She can perfectly do the same now. 'betterankles' is right, some of the greatest didn't perform them. The best Odiles in my memory were Dudinskaya and Plisetskaya who both did manege that was like an evil spell, sorcery, bewitchment.

 

 

Edited by Amelia
to add the text
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I wonder when darning/crocheting the toes ...a la a Pavlova went out of fashion! 

We did this certainly up to about 1980 or so though not sure whether Professionals would have had the time to do this because of the sheer number of pointe shoes they get through. 

They do certainly seem to bash their pointe shoes about more though! And I do seem to notice dancers shoes more these days which I haven't always done so. 

I certainly remember Lynn Seymours feet ....beautiful!

I don't recall noticing her shoes in particular ...but maybe they were just as clumpy as ones in Robs piccies! 

Anyway clumpy shoes certainly don't equate to clumpy dancers!......so any shoe which enables a dancer to enhance a performance as opposed to shoe aesthetic is fine by me. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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