Fun and Games with ROH Package Booking

[Geoff]

13 hours ago, penelopesimpson said:

I feel like you do when a much-loved friend lets you down.

 

Quite apart from the dubious ethics, the strategy isn’t even being executed competently.  Here’s a rundown of the conversations:

 

’Good evening.  I want to enquire about Fidelio tickets next year.’

’There are none available but you could watch for returns.’

’I tried to buy some when Packages opened for General Booking but even at 0900 it said sold out.’

’Yes, that’s correct.  They had all been sold to Friends. It’s very popular.’

’So what about when General Booking opens in a week or so ?’

’You will have to look for returns’

So are there no tickets available unless you are a Friend.?’

’You should write in to our Customer Relations department.’

’Are you aware of the media furore over La Forza?’’

’Yes.  You will need to look for returns.’

’Okay. But can you confirm that there are no Fidelio tickets going on sale to the General Public.?

’Yes.  This was decided by Marketing working with Friends.  I think you should speak to our public relations department.’

 

Clearly they know there is a looming problem but have not been briefed as to how to handle it.

 

Well done on getting to (at least a bit of) the truth. Customers do not like being misled or obfuscated or patronised, all of which seemed to be the way of the late lamented Lucy Sinclair. One hoped things would get better with her departure: seems sadly not to be the case. 

 

I for one cannot understand why initial ticket purchases for Fidelio were not capped at two or four per person (such restrictions can always be lifted nearer show date). The ROH do this all the time: currently I can’t get in to an Insight evening with lots of seats available as that would exceed my allocation.  

 

Edited October 19, 2019 by Geoff

[alison]

8 hours ago, JNC said:

At least with Forza they could claim unprecedented demand etc but there is no excuse here.

 

I thought Kaufmann was appearing in it?

[JNC]

35 minutes ago, alison said:

 

I thought Kaufmann was appearing in it?

 

He was in La Forza and also will be in Fidelio. My point was that I think the demand for La Forza was unexpected - yes it would be popular but there was a lot of general news coverage (which is rare for ballet/opera) about how people struggled to get tickets in general booking as well as the reselling of tickets on sites like viagogo - which were reported ‘neutrally’ but made the ROH not look great and also elitist. There is a thread somewhere on here about it and also if you google it I’m sure you’ll get the articles from that time. 

 

Because of that’s ROH will have known that tickets could sell out for friends only for Fidelio (and it seems have actually encouraged this) they can’t defend themselves by claiming some tickets were available for sale on general booking day (which is what they did for La Forza) - only 100 per performance but still better than Fidelio! 

 

https://www.roh.org.uk/news/la-forza-del-destino-the-royal-opera-houses-position-on-viagogo

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.classicfm.com/music-news/royal-opera-house-resold-tickets-verdi/

 

[ninamargaret]

i think it's,yet another example of the 'celebrity cult'.  I suspect Fidelio with a less glossy cast would have had far fewer people shelling out megabucks!

[penelopesimpson]

Yes and know, NinaMargaret.  I always wanted to see Kaufman and his Othello did not disappoint, hence my decision to see Forza.  Not, IMHO a great opera but he was wonderful.  The German repertoire is where he made his name andFidelio something of a calling card, so am desperate to get a ticket.

 

JNC I can’t agree that Forza too ROH by surprise.  Anything Kaufman does sells out and for some of the performances he was teamed with Netrebko who is probably the biggest female name in opera at present.  I absolutely cannot understand why tickets have not been limited to 2 per person, then you have the email to Friends almost inviting them to hoover up.  It is really awful behaviour.  Certainly I won’t be responding to any of their appeals from now on, nor adding the donation at booking.  Monday first thing I’m going to make as much fuss abou this as Ican, including speaking to the Arts Council.

[penelopesimpson]

11 minutes ago, ninamargaret said:

i think it's,yet another example of the 'celebrity cult'.  I suspect Fidelio with a less glossy cast would have had far fewer people shelling out megabucks!

Well, yes, but that’s because people want to see Kaufman, surely a reasonable expectation?

[JNC]

It will be interesting to see what (it anything) the Arts Council has to say!

 

Also I wonder if people will make a fuss when general booking opens and they realise they can’t book tickets, what ROH’s response/justification will be! 

[penelopesimpson]

I fully expect them to pull another stunt like last time when they claimed the system had gone down at 0900 but a few people had go5 through and just happened to buy all the Forza tickets.  Once trust is gone, you don’t believ3 anything

[ninamargaret]

5 hours ago, penelopesimpson said:

Well, yes, but that’s because people want to see Kaufman, surely a reasonable expectation?

Agreed, but I think there is a certain section of the audience that likes the idea of seeing Kaufman because he's famous, just as people will go to the Bolshoi because they've heard of them!

[Lizbie1]

Warning: unpopular opinion coming up!

 

Firstly, as I've indicated above, I think it was a serious mistake both for ROH not to put a strict limit on Fidelio tickets any individual Friend could buy, and for them not to withhold a proportion for general booking.

 

That said, far from "hoovering up" tickets, the vast majority of Friends will have limited themselves to a handful of or fewer tickets, if only because of the prohibitive cost. I have bought one cheap ticket, as I did for Forza last year; the same goes for the only other Friend I've spoken to about it, though his seat is rather grander than mine. Of course other, more sociable, Friends will be bringing some people with them and still others will turn up, most likely on their own, to each of the six performances.

 

Those who have bought tickets with the purpose of selling them at a profit should face consequences, as some of them indeed did for Forza. But I find it very hard to believe that more than a few of these are regular opera goers, rather than touts who've spotted an opportunity and bought their way to the front of the queue. This is why I find the absence of a cap hard to understand.

 

As for Friends' right to the first - and in this case apparently only - bite of the cherry; it's worth considering that not only have they paid for this (in my case 10% of my annual opera and ballet going budget - though far less than the cost of a stalls seat for Fidelio), but most Friends are committed and loyal opera and ballet goers who can be relied on to show up for an indifferently cast Simon Boccanegra or Enescu's Oedipe - which many of those clamouring for Fidelio tickets come General Booking wouldn't even think about going to. (I know that many non-Friends also fall into the former category, but the proportion is far less.)

 

There has been much annoyance on these forums about ROH apparently taking its most loyal followers for granted; it is - just - possible to view this latest mess as a misguided attempt to reverse that, by rewarding many of the Royal Opera's most loyal fans with the best chance of obtaining the season's hottest ticket.

Edited October 19, 2019 by Lizbie1
Minor edits

[penelopesimpson]

Lizzie, I am not entirely unsympathetic to your point BUT when I complain about sharing the terrace with non ticket holders or turn my nose up at people eating BYO curry at the entrance to The Crush Room,  I am swiftly reminded that ROH is a public building, substantially funded by money from the public purse.  Argument 1.

 

Argument 2. If part of signing up to Friends is the ability to access tickets that members of the public are prevented from buying, then this needs to be made clear rather than allowing the pretence that, provided they have funds, anybody can buy a seat at ROH.  I suspect that the reason this policy is not spelt out let lis precisely because ROH know just how badly it would play against a background of public subsidy.

 

Argument 3. You appear to be saying that because you pay for privileged access, Friends should be allowed to buy as many tickets as they like.  Presumably when you signed  up to Friends, you went through the terms and conditions but now you want to change these to include more privileges.

 

Argument 4.  Do you really think it is right that the public, who indirectly through taxation also pay to support ROH, should b3 barred from seeing some of the great performers of our age, just because they haven’t signed up to an exclusive club?

 

Sorry, but this isn’t right.  And what is even less right is the blanket of hypocrisy surrounding the situation.

[Lizbie1]

7 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

Argument 3. You appear to be saying that because you pay for privileged access, Friends should be allowed to buy as many tickets as they like.  Presumably when you signed  up to Friends, you went through the terms and conditions but now you want to change these to include more privileges.

 

That is exactly the opposite of what I have repeatedly said, which is that it was a mistake not to cap the number of tickets Friends could buy.

 

As to the other points: I have also repeatedly said that there should have been a proportion held back for general booking; however I don't think it helps your case to use words such as "barred" and "prevented" as if non-Friends were actively banned from buying tickets.

[bridiem]

I understand that the ROH wants (and needs) to incentivise Friends membership; but it absolutely should not do that by allowing Friends to buy all the tickets for any given production (and not even acknowledging that they're doing so). There are all sorts of other ways for Friends to get value from their membership. (I speak as a Friend.)

[alison]

I have a new theory: perhaps it's a deliberate policy to help flush out - and get rid of - the touts?!  

[penelopesimpson]

1 hour ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

That is exactly the opposite of what I have repeatedly said, which is that it was a mistake not to cap the number of tickets Friends could buy.

 

As to the other points: I have also repeatedly said that there should have been a proportion held back for general booking; however I don't think it helps your case to use words such as "barred" and "prevented" as if non-Friends were actively banned from buying tickets.

So what would you call no tickets being available to non Friends and no plans to provide any when General Booking opens?  Bar and banned are indeed NOT nice words - but then neither is the action.

Edited October 19, 2019 by penelopesimpson

[Lizbie1]

10 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

So what would you call no tickets being available to non Friends and no plans to provide any when General Booking opens?  Bar and banned are indeed NOT nice words - but then neither is the action.

 

Try "unavailable" or "not released" - they're bad enough.

[penelopesimpson]

Look, I wouldn’t agree with it BUT I wouldn’t be making such a fuss we’re it not for the hypocrisy and obfuscation.  If ROH want to make some productions available only to Friends, then so be it.  Instead they seem to be trying to do it through the back door and one can only guess At reasons for their lack of honesty, probably disapproval from the funding bodies.

 

I struggle with your point about Friends being a better sort of customer, more dedicated and loyal.  I am guessing that even a quick look at the friends roster would reveal some pretty high net worth customers who buy opera tickets for all sorts of reasons.  If we start going down the who is most worthy route which is surely a road to perdition, I could argue that just because I donot struggle up from Dorset to see Simon Boccanegra ( and absolutely nothing will tempt me to see it again, not even Jonas),  doesn’t disqualify me from wanting to see Fidelio.  This isn’ t a loyalty scheme where you get one goodie if you see three duds!

[penelopesimpson]

Just now, Lizbie1 said:

 

Try "unavailable" or "not released" - they're bad enough.

Lizbie they are my choice of words and I stand by them.  Tickets ARE available and HAVE been released.  

[Lizbie1]

2 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

I struggle with your point about Friends being a better sort of customer, more dedicated and loyal.  I am guessing that even a quick look at the friends roster would reveal some pretty high net worth customers who buy opera tickets for all sorts of reasons.  If we start going down the who is most worthy route which is surely a road to perdition, I could argue that just because I donot struggle up from Dorset to see Simon Boccanegra ( and absolutely nothing will tempt me to see it again, not even Jonas),  doesn’t disqualify me from wanting to see Fidelio.  This isn’ t a loyalty scheme where you get one goodie if you see three duds!

 

It was suggested as a possible motive, not an ideal solution.

 

Genuine question: as far as I understand it, tickets for the Last Night of the Proms are allocated only to those who have attended at least five concerts in the series and have then been awarded seats in the ballot. This is stated upfront. Do you think this is a fair system? Would you approve of something similar for the most oversubscribed operas?

[alison]

I'm not sure that's accurate, but I'm sure one of the BBBs will know.

[penelopesimpson]

1 hour ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

It was suggested as a possible motive, not an ideal solution.

 

Genuine question: as far as I understand it, tickets for the Last Night of the Proms are allocated only to those who have attended at least five concerts in the series and have then been awarded seats in the ballot. This is stated upfront. Do you think this is a fair system? Would you approve of something similar for the most oversubscribed operas?

That’s a very good point and I can absolutely see why they do it and approve.  It might be a solution at ROH for the once in a year performances that are massively over subscribed.  I probably see 6-8 operas a year so don’t know if that would qualify.  Of course the difference with ROH is that it’s unlikely ever to be one performance - usually 4-6 for Kaufman et al.  Of course, the puzzle in all this is 
Why R O H have taken this step.  If we knew that, we might be able to suggest a solution.  But holding 20% of tickets  for General Booking doesn’t seem particularly onerous or unreasonable.

It’s not as if we’re asking them to sell them any cheaper.  Friday Rush is alsodiscrinatory as it’s no good at all if you live outside of London.

[Lizbie1]

2 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

Of course, the puzzle in all this is 
Why R O H have taken this step.

 

That's what I've been attempting to understand - hence my "loyalty bonus" explanation.

[alison]

29 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

Friday Rush is alsodiscrinatory as it’s no good at all if you live outside of London.

 

Surely it's perfectly good for a lot of people who live outside London, unlike the previous day tickets system?  I thought that was part of the reason for changing it (Open Up works being another?)

 

Wrt the Proms comments above, I believe it's only the "daytripper" Prommers who are allowed to buy equivalent Last Night Promming tickets if they can produce tickets for at least 5 different Proms (the season ticket holders having the Last Night included anyway, unless things have changed), which seems fair enough, as they've demonstrated a fair amount of commitment.  If you want to buy a seat, you can just enter the general ballot, although there's a separate one for those who again have bought tickets to 5 or more Proms.

[Lizbie1]

1 minute ago, alison said:

If you want to buy a seat, you can just enter the general ballot

 

TBH, the odds on getting one of those look a lot worse than picking up a Friday Rush ticket!

[JNC]

@Lizbie1 I totally understand your argument and it is good to see things ‘from the other side’ but this was not made clear to either friends or the general public (possibility that friends could buy all tickets leading no availability for the general public). (Also I’m aware you don’t necessarily agree that friends can buy all tickets.) There is an issue of transparency here, as well as an overarching ‘fairness’ /elitism issue. 

 

Also - my controversial opinion - as the casting is same for all the nights, is it really necessary for people to go to more than one performance considering the limited availability? Perhaps two maximum to compare different nights, but going to all six seems a bit greedy in my opinion. (I am sure most friends will only be going to one due to the expense you suggest and this is likely to be a rare scenario but I really do sometimes think that people ought to consider others who may like to go and perhaps have restraint?) A ticket cap would have solved this of course and made it fairer for all. 

 

4 hours ago, bridiem said:

I understand that the ROH wants (and needs) to incentivise Friends membership; but it absolutely should not do that by allowing Friends to buy all the tickets for any given production (and not even acknowledging that they're doing so). There are all sorts of other ways for Friends to get value from their membership. (I speak as a Friend.)

 

This exactly. 

 

I think most friends would have happily been able to get a ticket to Fidelio for themselves plus a few plus ones within a capped ticket number. And also understand the need for tickets to held back for the general public. 

 

I really hope this is not the direction for ROH. I noted my disappointment with the general public being unable to get tickets for the Linbury Cross Currents bill for example, which was frustrating but more understandable due to the size of the theatres and that it was only 4 performances across two evenings. I’m aware a lot of insight events also sell out to members, and members have benefits such as dress rehearsals etc, so there are other ways to be exclusive without disgruntling others. 

 

For a whole set of performances to be inaccessible to the general public is unacceptable in my opinion, especially considering ROH is part taxpayer funded. 

Edited October 19, 2019 by JNC

[Lizbie1]

2 minutes ago, JNC said:

Also - my controversial opinion - as the casting is same for all the nights, is it really necessary for people to go to more than one performance considering the limited availability? Perhaps two maximum to compare different nights, but going to all six seems a bit greedy in my opinion.

 

I completely agree! I've had people telling me that Kaufmann's Otello a couple of years ago improved a lot during the run (they'd seen perhaps two performances), so there is an interest in hearing it more than once, but I don't think  anyone should feel entitled to be at all performances.

 

FWIW I'd have put an initial cap of 2 or possibly 4 tickets per Friend, across all performances.

[JNC]

I think that’s fair. 2 I would argue would perhaps lead to complaints that it’s not enough so I (as a non friend) would understand 4 tickets - that allows 2 people at 2 performances or 4 or less at 1, or 1 person attending 4 - which is more than enough and fair in my opinion! 

 

No one has really touched upon the fact that the lack of a ticket cap means a lot of ‘friends of friends’ will have got their tickets through a friend rather than having a membership themselves.

 

memberships for galleries for example are for individuals (ie one free entry/tickets) or you could get a ‘plus one’ membership where you pay more but can bring a partner/guest. 

 

The fact that there is in essence no ticket caps also means that in practice you could have multiple people sharing one friends membership which is highly open to abuse (and not to overuse the word but unfair!) as the membership cost can be split across many people. Surely all it requires is for one person to share a login with their friends? Again, I’m sure the majority of friends respect the system and do not do this but without a ticket cap surely ROH could not prevent this behaviour - unless there is something I’m not aware of? (A ticket cap wouldn’t be necessarily for less popular productions.) Is ROH turning a blind eye to this? 

 

I don’t mean to slander friends by any means - I think it’s a good system overall and respect their willingness to support ROH. I just mean to point out further issues I have with the system, and also considering I am not a friend and yet still attend ‘regularly’ (between twice a month and once a week depending what’s on!) spending hundreds of pounds annually on tickets and introducing friends I really am both disappointed and angry at this situation. 

 

Anyway I’ve said my piece. I’ll report back if ROH ever respond to my email to them about this. 

[penelopesimpson]

JNC may I ask who you emailed?

[JNC]

Perhaps emailed is the wrong word!

 

I submitted a message via their contact us page, I selected customer services. 

 

http://www.roh.org.uk/contact

 

When I’ve contacted before they have been quick to get back (there is someone who I think is called Geoff who is really great at responding) - apart from when I complained about general lack of availability of the Linbury Cross Currents when it took a few days/a week as opposed to the 24 hour turnaround they seem to have for ‘easier’ questions. I note that when I complained about the Linbury availability for the general public they clearly had an PR approved set of text which didn’t answer the questions I asked. (Other responses have been very informative and answered directly by a human rather than a PR mouthpiece!)

 

I don’t know if there is another way to contact them aside from Twitter and of course calling. Depending on how general booking day goes I may tweet them too if I don’t get a response by then also. (You could also tweet the same text at multiple parties including the arts council for example which may be a good way of highlighting the issue to a wider audience.) 

[Scheherezade]

I am a Friend. I had always understood that 20% of tickets for each production were held back and was happy with that.

 

I was also, in the interests of fairness, happy to accept a ticket cap, although my preference is for four as I do like to attend with my family and/or personal friends.

 

I believe that the ‘benefits’ of Friends membership and fairness to the public are both met by this means although I will say that one of the main reasons why I pay a Friends subscription is precisely so that I can have a better chance of getting affordable tickets to the over-subscribed productions.

 

I have a limited budget and Friends membership gives me a chance of buying cheap tickets which would otherwise be unavailable. There are no overall savings since the lower ticket cost is offset by the cost of subscription but I prefer to do things this way to make sure, as far as possible - and it is not always possible even as a Friend - that I can get to see the productions of my choice.

 

Whilst there are clearly many Friends who have large budgets (lucky them!), there are equally

obviously many who do not, as can be seen by the high number of the cheapest tickets taken during the early stages of Friends booking.
 

I had wondered whether these were held back for public booking but on current evidence that would seem not to be the case and I must therefore assume that these tickets have been bought by similar Friends to me - ie those on limited budgets who are prepared to swallow the subscription fee and, in return, limit their consumption to the cheaper tickets as a trade off in order to see the over-subscribed as well as the under-subscribed productions.

 

Sorry for going on at length but I do feel that, like me, most Friends wholly approve holding back a reasonable percentage of tickets for each production and at a broad range of prices provided that one of the tangible benefits of Friends’ membership includes an enhanced chance of obtaining affordable tickets to all productions.

 

By way of comparison, the National Theatre, itself highly subsidised, seems to sell out completely to the highest level of Friends for the must-see productions, suggesting that the only difference between it and the ROH is the misleading messages as to public availability put out by the ROH rather than ticket availability per se.

[San Perregrino]

I read this forum because it is for dance and ballet lovers for whom I believe it was set up? 
I am sorry that people have experienced difficulties getting tickets for non-ballet  and non-dance performances at the ROH but I don’t need to read about it here. Perhaps there is a forum for opera lovers where it would be more appropriate for them to vent their ticket frustrations?

If anyone experienced similar difficulties getting tickets for dance and ballet performances then  I suggest the discussion re-focus on this. If not, I move that the moderators end or delete this thread.
 

[bridiem]

I think the principles of booking for tickets at the ROH, and its funding and Friends membership benefits, are relevant for ballet lovers too. (And there have in the past been concerns about not being able to get tickets for certain ballets/casts.) So I think this is a perfectly valid discussion.

 

[penelopesimpson]

2 hours ago, prs59 said:

I read this forum because it is for dance and ballet lovers for whom I believe it was set up? 
I am sorry that people have experienced difficulties getting tickets for non-ballet  and non-dance performances at the ROH but I don’t need to read about it here. Perhaps there is a forum for opera lovers where it would be more appropriate for them to vent their ticket frustrations?

If anyone experienced similar difficulties getting tickets for dance and ballet performances then  I suggest the discussion re-focus on this. If not, I move that the moderators end or delete this thread.
 

Err, then why read it?  It might have started about Opera but actually relates to the Friends system that operates across ballet and opera.  Shutting down topics of debate because you personally aren’t interested seems somewhat OTT