Has ballet got 'slower'

[JNC]

I know this topic has been vaguely discussed/mentioned in other threads, but I was watching this video of Fonteyn in Sleeping Beauty (from around 20 minutes in). 

 

Contrast that with the same extract with Cuthbertson and Polunin. There are passages which are notably slower, for example about two minutes in when Aurora pirouettes/spins around and then dips to the side and back up. Also around 3 and a half/4 minutes in where Aurora again spins around and then opens her arms out. (Apologies my ballet terminology isn't great). Maybe they aren't actually slower and I just think they are due to Fonteyn's style? But the music definitely sounds much faster with Fonteyn, at least to me!  

 

I appreciate these are fairly minor differences in the grand scheme of things that also have an element of individual dancers' style also, and perhaps Fonteyn was particularly fast, but I'm curious as to whether people think things have 'slowed down' and whether this is good/bad/neutral? 

 

I for one appreciate both and find the different styles both have pros/cons. I don't mean to start discussions/criticism around 'oh they were much better and faster back then' or alternatively 'oh we are so much better now with technique/extensions and narrative emphasis on certain places' etc, and neither do I mean to compare Cuthbertson/Fonteyn directly, it just so happens that these were the two clips of that specific section I stumbled across (in 'preparation' for the upcoming RB production which I am very much looking forward to but haven't seen the ballet in years so wanted to refresh my memory!)

 

In short - has ballet actually 'slowed down'? And if it has, I'd be curious to know why, and people's thoughts on this? 

 

(The videos automatically embedded when I copied and pasted the link so hope this is ok). 

 

 

 

[Geoff]

This is a great question JNC and one which (I would argue) happens to be of special importance to the performance of Sleeping Beauty. Yes we have discussed this before in various ways but that doesn’t mean one shouldn’t look at it again.

 

By way of illustration, there are many reasons people might find Sleeping Beauty “boring”: a lack of pace is an easy one to check. I went through a whole lot of recordings - official and unofficial - tracing the history of RB performances over more than 50 years. Guess what: the oft-stated view that “dancers are of course so much better these days” just doesn’t stand up. The reality is that there is an excitement about the recordings from the 1940s and 1950s which slackens off as the years pass (things are still ok in 1978 but then there are increasing problems).

 

For a while RB conductors (eg Russian guest conductors) ignored Tchaikovsky’s clear tempo markings and indulged dancers who wanted to dance with (Macmillan-inflected?) “posing” and “emoting” emphases which slow things down considerably and which go against the intention of the choreography. Add a lack of understanding of the “text” of the choreography (ie not just classical steps performed as in class) and it is no wonder the experience can end up feeling rather empty: the ballet risks becoming, literally, “meaningless”, without meaning. Those who were privileged to watch the incomparable Beryl Grey take over a Lilac Fairy rehearsal during an Insight evening - showing up not just the poor dancer but also her ballet mistress as not having the first idea of what the variation is “about” - can attest to the importance of dancing the intention as well as the steps.

 

There is much more to say: thank you for getting me thinking. 

 

Edited September 11, 2019 by Geoff

[annamk]

Definitely the tempo of the music has been slowed down. Extensions are higher and the feet not as quick. Is it better, worse or just different - I tend to prefer it quicker. There are many examples - I was watching Swan Lake Ashton’s Neapolitan Dance a few months ago and there was a noticeable difference between Sleep/Taylor and Acri/Choe. 

[JNC]

Thanks Geoff and Anna, I think it's true to say that dancing is now is no better (and equally no worse) than 50 years ago. I think it is a case of styles/preferences changing as well as different training?  I really don't know enough about it but I feel that perhaps the 'Russian' style has influenced a lot of the emphasis on extensions? I don't think this is necessarily a bad thing in general, and I think the RB has historically always been about 'blending' styles, but at the same time I don't want ballet to be homogenous and lose that kind of style that Fonteyn/Grey etc had, which I fear is a risk. Perhaps it is unrealistic and or undesirable for us to have carbon copies of performances from the 50s etc as different generations will either willingly or unwillingly put their stamp on things, but I would like to think that the RB is invested in a core 'British' style that is differentiated from the Russians/French/Italians etc. 

 

I have to admit based solely on the two clips above I do prefer the faster tempo - but then perhaps I am being overly skewed by the brilliance of Fonteyn's dancing? (I do think Cuthbertson looks glorious by the way and have booked to see her later this year.) To balance it out I do prefer Polunin to Fonteyn's partner (controversial?) and generally prefer the style of male dancing today as I think they can jump higher/faster (but I will also say I probably haven't seen enough 'vintage' male dancing for this to be a fair comparison so accept I may be wrong on this!). 

 

Surely today's RB dancers could dance at the pace Fonteyn does in that extract? (Similarly not just RB but other premier companies?) If they can, does this mean they are choosing not to for a style preference for the 'emoting' and emphasis? Or do they have to dance at a 'slower' pace to do certain extensions which are now the fashion? 

 

And to diverge slightly, when different dancers dance the role does the tempo change at all according to their style/preference (e.g. would Hayward for example dance this 'faster' than Cuthbertson)? Or would it remain consistent across RB performances? 

 

 

 

[FionaM]

Certainly principals can have some influence with the conductor on speeds for their solos.  I am thinking especially men for their en manège jumps etc in their solos who will prefer a particular speed.   I also had a discussion with Gavin Sutherland at ENB about the incredibly fast speed that Alina Cojocaru wanted the Swan Lake fouettes to be.  (I was watching a rehearsal).  In fact the orchestra were not quite fast enough, so they and Alina repeated the fouettes.  What a thrill for the few of us ENB fans watching!

[FionaM]

On a separate note I thought the video of Cuthbertson/Polunin was not meant to be in the public domain?  It regularly appears on YouTube and is removed each time fairly quickly.   A full time job for someone at ROH?   You may be asked to remove it here?

[FLOSS]

I think everyone needs to remember that Petipa and Tchaikovsky worked in close collaboration on the creation of Sleeping Beauty. As Petipa provided the composer with a minutage indicating what he wanted in terms of the style, tempo and duration of various sections of the score  I think it has to be assumed that Petipa expected his choreography to be performed pretty much at tempo throughout the ballet. It really makes all the difference if the ballet is performed at a speed the choreographer would recognise. The 2017 revival which was conducted by Mr Kessels, an eccentric who believes that Tchaikovsky was a great composer whose tempi should be observed, prompted some to post expressing concern that the dancers could not keep up with the orchestra but I don't recall that there were any of the  usual complaints which generally accompany revivals of the ballet questioning why such a boring ballet is being revived. It is surprising what happens when you read and observe the composer's instructions . In the case of Sleeping Beauty it restores its structural coherence and its charm and transforms the experience of watching it so that even the divertisement for Cinderella and Prince Charming becomes worth seeing.

 

The problem with taking the choreography at a snail's pace is that Petipa's choreography is concerned with phrasing not the display of individual steps classroom style. If it is danced too slowly it begins to lose its overall shape, enchainements lose their internal coherence and they lose their connection with the enchainements which preceded them and those that follow them.I have no problem with dancers displaying their extensions , if that is what the choreographer intended the audience to see , I have a great deal of problem with them if they are alien to the style of the period in which the ballet was created and  style of the choreographer whose work is ,allegedly, being performed. Petipa was being  radical when he created a choreographic text for Sleeping Beauty which successfully combined the best of  the old French school and the  advances in technique made possible by Italian training and developments in the structure of the pointe shoe. Although he later wrote that he feared that he had polluted the  purity of the French school by creating choreography which accommodated the  technical skills of dancers like Brianzi and Legnani he stayed as close  as he could to the traditions of the school in which he himself had been trained including those traditions which regarded specific physical types as most suited to particular types of roles and allocated specific styles of dance to them. In the world of nineteenth century ballet it was still the case that the ideal in performance was ease, elegance and symmetry particularly when it came to the choreography created for princes and princesses. Demi character roles were given more obviously vigorous choreography to dance while asymmetry, essentially the vocabulary of the old grotesque dancer, where it occurred was allocated to those playing witches, goblins , trolls and characters like Carabosse. You might argue that an Aurora who indulges in high extensions which destroy the symmetry which Peitipa gave the role is aligning herself with Carabosse rather than the fairies who who bestowed the gifts of candour,vitality and a mellifluous  voice on her.

 

By the way the answer to your question is that it has got slower,with some performances  in the recent past looking like Aurora was wading through treacle. The problem is that not only is this wrong aesthetically but it reveals that the performer and coaches have lost any understanding they may once have had of the ballet's style but it also leads to the text being savagely cut so that it will run for three hours and avoid incurring overtime payments. It is years since we have seen the hunting scene with anything more than the dance with the countess and courtiers which is a great pity as the score at that point contains a suite of dances each of which takes the audience further back in time to the point at which the spindle incident occurred. In the original designs it was clear that the Prologue was set in Fontainbleau in the mid sixteenth century and the second and third acts were set a century later in the reign of Louis XIV( the Sun King) hence the arrival of Apollo ( the Sun god ) in his chariot in the apotheosis to bless the happy couple.

Edited September 12, 2019 by FLOSS

[Pas de Quatre]

Perfectly said Floss.

[trog]

I have always thought the Sleeping Beauty as being too slow and boring, until the story is out of the way. One the BlueBird, Puss In Boots and Little Red Riding Hood appear, I think the ballet improves no end. Romeo and Juliet is another that needs a good prune. There is far too much music. When you prune the garden, it looks so much nicer and there are several ballets that I feel the same about. :)

[Colman]

I always lose interest in Sleeping Beauty when the story ends. I can be roused from my nap by a good pair of cats, but other than that … 

[Two Pigeons]

14 hours ago, FionaE said:

On a separate note I thought the video of Cuthbertson/Polunin was not meant to be in the public domain?  It regularly appears on YouTube and is removed each time fairly quickly.   A full time job for someone at ROH?   You may be asked to remove it here?

 

 

I have a copy of this taken off Sky Arts.  I haven't seen it for a while and would be hard pushed to find it but I do remember being not that impressed with Cuthbertson's performance.  She was clearly having on off night. 

 

I did chat to someone at the Hippodrome in 2012 who had seen it at the cinema relay a few weeks early.

 

He was giggling that before the performance there was some text on the screen comparing this partnership as one of the greats, right up there with Sibley and Dowell etc.  We will never know as Polunin had left the RB very shortly afterwards.

[Richard LH]

I make the Fonteyn/Blair version of the PDD about 10 seconds quicker overall (at approx 4 mins 20 secs)  than the Cuthbertson/Polunin version*. So the latter appears to be  about 4% slower, which could add up to about 5 minutes for the full performance, if representative of the ballet as a whole. That doesn't seem a huge percentage difference, but I do think  it is enough to be discernible to both ear and sight, especially for those very familiar with the music and choreography.  I don't think slower is necessarily always worse, though,  and  in this particular case I don't personally find the  issue of speed in itself to be enough of a factor to  be determining my preference. 

 

* A caveat in this regard....I am no film technician, but are we sure that the recording/playback speed of the older version (in particular) accurately represents the speed at which this was actually performed?

 

 

Edited September 12, 2019 by Richard LH
Name error

[JNC]

@FLOSS thank you for a comprehensive and well informed comment! It’s interesting to note that styles are also about settling character and could be perceived as altering choreography/choreographer’s intentions. 

 

@Richard LH only 10 seconds, wow that’s surprising! It’s quite interesting how such a small time span actually makes quite a lot of difference. Fonteyn does seem to move as if she’s been sped up (and maybe she had been slightly, I don’t know?). I saw the Cuthbertson clip first and was impressed by the speed of the fish dives but after seeing Fonteyn’s they look so much slower!

 

As for the clip, it was found quite easily under a google search for ‘Cuthbertson Sleeping Beauty’. Of course happy for a mod to remove it if it breaches some sort of forum rules. 

 

Sleeping Beauty seems to have its detractors but generally it seems to be a well liked ballet. I don’t worry about it being lost from the repertoire as it is a classic but I do worry (and Floss has made me think) that we do risk losing some of the essence of the ballet as originally conceived musically and choreographically, as Geoff mentioned Beryl Grey highlighting. I hope RB (and other companies) do their best to treasure this historical knowledge and preserve ballet history, as well as of course allowing new dancers to make the roles their own - a tricky balance which I don’t envy companies on how they tackle this!  

[bridiem]

49 minutes ago, JNC said:

 

Sleeping Beauty seems to have its detractors but generally it seems to be a well liked ballet. I don’t worry about it being lost from the repertoire as it is a classic but I do worry (and Floss has made me think) that we do risk losing some of the essence of the ballet as originally conceived musically and choreographically, as Geoff mentioned Beryl Grey highlighting. I hope RB (and other companies) do their best to treasure this historical knowledge and preserve ballet history, as well as of course allowing new dancers to make the roles their own - a tricky balance which I don’t envy companies on how they tackle this!  

 

Not the only tricky balance involved in Sleeping Beauty 😊 (Sorry, couldn't resist it.)

[JNC]

2 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

Not the only tricky balance involved in Sleeping Beauty 😊 (Sorry, couldn't resist it.)

 

Ha! Gave me a small chuckle 

[alison]

8 hours ago, Two Pigeons said:

I have a copy of this taken off Sky Arts.  I haven't seen it for a while and would be hard pushed to find it but I do remember being not that impressed with Cuthbertson's performance.  She was clearly having on off night. 

 

Really?  I'm surprised that it was released to Sky at all.  My memories of the whole thing are of it being rather subpar.  But I guess that's the risk with live broadcasts.

[redshoesgirl2]

12 hours ago, Richard LH said:

....

 

* A caveat in this regard....I am no film technician, but are we sure that the recording/playback speed of the older version (in particular) accurately represents the speed at which this was actually performed?

 

 

exactly my thoughts. i was trying to listen to hear the pitch was different in the orchestra and i think it was definitely higher in the fonteyn slip.

re cutherbertson: I don't see a bad night here, maybe one bobble, but sergie's one-arm fish are the best ever. and the turns SO fast. he was just a great partner. blair wasn't a slouch either. i've seen some really horrid versions of this pdd on youtube.

i wish we could see his Manon.

Edited September 13, 2019 by redshoesgirl2

[Geoff]

14 hours ago, JNC said:

we do risk losing some of the essence of the ballet as originally conceived musically and choreographically, as Geoff mentioned Beryl Grey highlighting. I hope RB (and other companies) do their best to treasure this historical knowledge and preserve ballet history

 

At the risk of labouring the point, consider how often we see a Petipa variation beginning with a dancer standing still on stage, nothing in their head (no "text"), just waiting for the music to get to the point when they can "start to dance". Petipa was a genius who worked in great detail with Tchaikovsky to get the music just so: he simply would not have tolerated a succession of such "meaningless" stage waits. Performances that are in touch with the original intentions of those who created the ballet flow so much better. 

[bridiem]

I think it's not just speed, it's continuity; dancing, not doing a series of steps or making a series of images. Flow (physical and musical). So you're not admiring the technique, it's disguised so that what you experience is simply dancing, music, story. But yes, also speed.

[LinMM]

I was just wondering whether Ratmansky's Sleeping Beauty for ABT has a closer link ....or just a different one ..to the original.

And Again ...when are ABT coming to UK.....pleeeease a visit soon.

 

Regards to speed of past performances etc .....but first ...I've given up these kind of comparisons as times change and every time has its great exponents of the Art so I'm happy with that!

However just trying to get the old memory going.....and memory is not always that reliable ....but  I do think ....the Royal at least ...did take things that bit faster back in 60's 70's and 80's. Not so many double turns as today but they were really excitingly fast across the stage. 

Dances like the Neopolitan in Swan Lake were at breakneck speed so again really exciting to watch......not just another dance god it through! 

I seem to remember that back then when the Russians came over they took things noticeably more slowly than the Royal....for real ...nothing to do with film speeds! ....but still loved  them as they showed different interpretations which were much appreciated at the time. 

I was impressed in the above Fonteyn clip of just how deep a plié she comes off the floor onto pointe ....right at the end....makes my knees hurt just looking at it! Also her deep back bend. But the height of the legs was standard for the time. But her lines and phrasing immaculate of course! 

[annamk]

On 11/09/2019 at 21:17, annamk said:

Definitely the tempo of the music has been slowed down. Extensions are higher and the feet not as quick. Is it better, worse or just different - I tend to prefer it quicker. There are many examples - I was watching Swan Lake Ashton’s Neapolitan Dance a few months ago and there was a noticeable difference between Sleep/Taylor and Acri/Choe. 

 

I think I made a mistake here and it was Hinkis/Sambe not Choe/Acri.