Jump to content

Brexit, EU citizenship and job opportunities


Cluelessmomma
 Share

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

That's not good CDR but I think the companies have all been in a very precarious position and, indeed, they still are.

 

I saw both BRB and NB in June and I think they used students in a lot of corps roles so that they could maintain cast bubbles.  

 

If the world was normal would they usually have expected some sort of payment?  I remember seeing Xander Parish, Alex Campbell, Joe Caley and James Barton with BRB during midscale when they were all still students - would they have been performing for the experience or would they have had short term contracts do you know?

 

I know NB have recently held auditions because I saw the notice on the website but I do not know how many dancers they were looking to contract.

Royal Ballet used to pay the upper school students they used to boost their corps, approx £60/show plus expenses and pointe shoes for the girls. This changed around 2015/16, their pay’ went to the school instead. Not hearsay, witnessed as had DC at school.  ENB cover stipend/travel/accommodation and pointe shoes for ‘My First’ productions and the graduate yr students used in company performances. Again, not hearsay.  This is common practice and nothing to do with Covid, yes it is great to put on CV but sadly rarely comes to anything 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 107
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

8 hours ago, Direction_of_your_dreams said:

Royal Ballet used to pay the upper school students they used to boost their corps, approx £60/show plus expenses and pointe shoes for the girls. This changed around 2015/16, their pay’ went to the school instead. Not hearsay, witnessed as had DC at school.  ENB cover stipend/travel/accommodation and pointe shoes for ‘My First’ productions and the graduate yr students used in company performances. Again, not hearsay.  This is common practice and nothing to do with Covid, yes it is great to put on CV but sadly rarely comes to anything 

Yes.  This is true - my daughter danced a lot for rb whilst a rbs student. The money was given to school and apparently used for helping students attend auditions. Although this was means tested - so my daughter earned a large percentage of the funds and was prevented from accessing the help !! The girls were also lent to brb for Albert hall and nutcracker season. The reason was supposedly to showcase the students and help with resume - didn’t help get them jobs. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Nama said:

 The reason was supposedly to showcase the students and help with resume - didn’t help get them jobs. 

...but without this performance experience on their resumés it may have been even harder to get jobs.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The money went to the school NOT the students???? Outrageous!! So ticket buying public are yet again hood winked as to where their money is going....

Again I say, where is the transparent public auditing of schools & companies???

And why are people not shouting long & loud? Or is this a sign again of the long ingrained fear that anyone who speaks out will be cast out? Or rather.... never ever cast at all!!! 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Peanut68 said:

The money went to the school NOT the students???? Outrageous!! So ticket buying public are yet again hood winked as to where their money is going....

Again I say, where is the transparent public auditing of schools & companies???

And why are people not shouting long & loud? Or is this a sign again of the long ingrained fear that anyone who speaks out will be cast out? Or rather.... never ever cast at all!!! 

Agree, Peanut68. An audition fund sounds like a wonderful idea that other schools could learn from, but..... surely not financed with other students' earnings??

 

Personally, I don't agree with the 'good enough' idea either. If they are performing corps de ballet roles in a professional production they should be paid, and if they weren't good enough they wouldn't be allowed on in the first place. After all, supernumeraries get paid and some of those filling in for corps roles will doing far more technical dancing than that. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 08/08/2021 at 23:19, Jan McNulty said:

<snip>

 

As far as height requirements go don't most companies have them?  Over many years now of reading the Doing Dance forum I have seen many complaints that companies in Europe want taller dancers than most British dancers seem to be.  If you look at the makeup of NB (as I know you will have done) they have a number of male dancers who are on the shorter side of tall - realistically what would be the point of taking on a lady who was 6' tall.  Requirements surely vary with the need at the time.

 


Northern  has a  decent range of  height among the men of the company , where it has to be noted that  mr Nixon  did  have a bit of a thing for his 'little china dolls' ( be they European  - like Pippa Moore  and Antionette Brooks -Daw  or East Asian) ... and it's become more noticeable since Hannah Bateman and Vicky Goldsmith (Sibson) retired from performing  -  however   inthe  MacMillan tribute troiple bill  ( but unsure of whether any arm twistign went on  - there was a t least one performance of las mermanas whenre  Zenadia Yanowsky guested ... 

 

obviously   the new  AD will  have to work at least initially with existing  staffing and any appointments made this summer ... 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

The money went to the school NOT the students?

 

But it did go to the students: presumably as a bursary fund to help those students from families without significant resources, to help pay for the expenses of auditions etc. 

 

So there's another way of looking at it: the RBS is trying to enable those less well-off to attend expensive auditions (ie travel, audition videos etc).

 

It's often bemoaned in this forum that children of less well-off families lose out because they can't be subbed for audition travel etc. So the RBS is trying to level the playing field a bit - isn't that a good thing?

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

But it did go to the students: presumably as a bursary fund to help those students from families without significant resources, to help pay for the expenses of auditions etc. 

 

So there's another way of looking at it: the RBS is trying to enable those less well-off to attend expensive auditions (ie travel, audition videos etc).

 

It's often bemoaned in this forum that children of less well-off families lose out because they can't be subbed for audition travel etc. So the RBS is trying to level the playing field a bit - isn't that a good thing?

Yes, the money did go to some students (if this is indeed what happened), but not to the students who had earned it.  I'm sure that none of us would be too impressed if our wages were deducted in their entirety at source and redistributed elsewhere?

 

Dancers - students or otherwise - have as much right to receive the wages they have earned as anyone else. 

 

I think that an audition fund is a wonderful idea that other schools should adopt, and the RBS should be applauded for that. But they could surely source the funds for this elsewhere? The school appears to benefit from a significant amount of philanthropy, as evidenced by the long list of sponsors on their website - far more than any of the other main vocational schools.

 

The wages earned by students are likely to be a drop in the ocean in comparison, and whilst the figures cited above may not sound like a lot of money in the bigger picture, they will mean a lot to the students who earned them. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Pirouette said:

Yes, the money did go to some students (if this is indeed what happened), but not to the students who had earned it.  I'm sure that none of us would be too impressed if our wages were deducted in their entirety at source and redistributed elsewhere?

 

Dancers - students or otherwise - have as much right to receive the wages they have earned as anyone else. 

 

I think that an audition fund is a wonderful idea that other schools should adopt, and the RBS should be applauded for that. But they could surely source the funds for this elsewhere? The school appears to benefit from a significant amount of philanthropy, as evidenced by the long list of sponsors on their website - far more than any of the other main vocational schools.

 

The wages earned by students are likely to be a drop in the ocean in comparison, and whilst the figures cited above may not sound like a lot of money in the bigger picture, they will mean a lot to the students who earned them. 

 

Do children at non-vocational schools get paid when they do work experience?  I certainly didn't and more recently neither did my nieces.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

Do children at non-vocational schools get paid when they do work experience?  I certainly didn't and more recently neither did my nieces.

 

 You don’t generally get paid on placement whilst doing higher education courses either e.g. nursing/ medicine. What you should get is a mentor/ support/ feedback at a higher level than if you were a member of regular staff. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, Peony said:

 You don’t generally get paid on placement whilst doing higher education courses either e.g. nursing/ medicine. What you should get is a mentor/ support/ feedback at a higher level than if you were a member of regular staff. 

 

Thanks Peony.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is correct that students on work experience or placements of less than one year are not automatically entitled to the minimum wage.  I trust that the period for which students are engaged with the company does not exceed that length of time. 

 

However, I disagree that already highly skilled ballet students should be deprived of a wage that they would have received in the past just because students of other subjects don't always receive one.  The dance world can do better than engaging in a race to the bottom which encourages exploitation.  We should be levelling up, not levelling down. 

 

The main point here, though, isn't that the students are unpaid, it's that in the scenario described above (if it is indeed the case) a service is being provided and paid for , but yet the people performing the service are apparently not receiving the money owed to them as it is being directed elsewhere. This is not the same situation as if the work was unpaid and no money changed hands. This is the point that I believe the posters above were making. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Pirouette said:

It is correct that students on work experience or placements of less than one year are not automatically entitled to the minimum wage.  I trust that the period for which students are engaged with the company does not exceed that length of time. 

 

However, I disagree that already highly skilled ballet students should be deprived of a wage that they would have received in the past just because students of other subjects don't always receive one.  The dance world can do better than engaging in a race to the bottom which encourages exploitation.  We should be levelling up, not levelling down. 

 

The main point here, though, isn't that the students are unpaid, it's that in the scenario described above (if it is indeed the case) a service is being provided and paid for , but yet the people performing the service are apparently not receiving the money owed to them as it is being directed elsewhere. This is not the same situation as if the work was unpaid and no money changed hands. This is the point that I believe the posters above were making. 

 

Previously did ballet students get paid for performances with companies?

 

The students used by BRB and NB for their June seasons had just over a week of performances each plus rehearsal time so definitely not longer than a year.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Pirouette said:

It is correct that students on work experience or placements of less than one year are not automatically entitled to the minimum wage.  I trust that the period for which students are engaged with the company does not exceed that length of time. 

 

However, I disagree that already highly skilled ballet students should be deprived of a wage that they would have received in the past just because students of other subjects don't always receive one.  The dance world can do better than engaging in a race to the bottom which encourages exploitation.  We should be levelling up, not levelling down. 

 

The main point here, though, isn't that the students are unpaid, it's that in the scenario described above (if it is indeed the case) a service is being provided and paid for , but yet the people performing the service are apparently not receiving the money owed to them as it is being directed elsewhere. This is not the same situation as if the work was unpaid and no money changed hands. This is the point that I believe the posters above were making. 

Not hearsay: my DS when at RBS Upper School danced for BRB in a Nutcracker season not so long ago, doing 30 shows, including the Albert Hall.  He did absolutely love the experience, and it certainly looked good on his CV at the time. He was not standing at the back holding a tray of drinks - he was one of the three Russian Trepak dancers, among other roles.  As a parent, I was disappointed to say the least that not only did he not get paid a penny (even a token amount) but there was quibbling over his train fares from London, and there was no 'thankyou' of any kind for dancing in 30 shows for free. They didn't even think to give these unpaid dancers a BRB Christmas bauble or a bunch of flowers. DS went straight into a prestigious company in Europe the month after, so he was certainly of the required standard.   

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

Previously did ballet students get paid for performances with companies?

 

The students used by BRB and NB for their June seasons had just over a week of performances each plus rehearsal time so definitely not longer than a year.

 

 

Yes, Direction_of_your_dreams said in their post above that students used to get paid when performing for the RB up until around 2015/16.  I don't know about the other companies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

also  it  can be argued that  these  dancers are there to 'provide service'   not  there for training or  practise placement ... 

the subtley of this argument may  be lost on  the readers who don;t have a health professional background though 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/08/2021 at 11:18, Kate_N said:

 

But it did go to the students: presumably as a bursary fund to help those students from families without significant resources, to help pay for the expenses of auditions etc. 

 

So there's another way of looking at it: the RBS is trying to enable those less well-off to attend expensive auditions (ie travel, audition videos etc).

 

It's often bemoaned in this forum that children of less well-off families lose out because they can't be subbed for audition travel etc. So the RBS is trying to level the playing field a bit - isn't that a good thing?

In theory possibly.....bit who gets to decide who/what/where???? Hmmmm

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

Brexit: We have temporarily paused all orders to EU/EEA countries until further notice. 

I was looking at ROH’s shop on line and couldn’t help but notice the banner above.
A new season, choosing seats, full houses etc hopefully all herald a return to more familiar ways but it may well take a long time for non COVID problems to be resolved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
 Share


×
×
  • Create New...