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Brexit, EU citizenship and job opportunities


Cluelessmomma
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14 hours ago, Peony said:

Sorry 48 hours not 45. Averaged over 17 weeks. It’s not much protection really 6 days of 8 hours excluding breaks and travel, arriving early for performances or waiting around the theatre etc, and any holiday will be averaged In the 17 weeks. Not sure what the answer is, a job market which has way more potential employees than jobs and a very high proportion of young inexperienced employees is ripe for exploitation. To be fair I don’t think some  companies are raking it in at the expense of their employees, I’ve been to a lot of performances with half full houses. Of course they should still be obeying employment law though

also  pressure to sign  away  those rights  an op -out the UK had  when still EU members and which won't be going away 

however   there  comes the issue of  pay rates for excessively long  days under the control of the  organisation  if  dancers are either workers or employees  ( defintion of worker  - https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/worker - which is how  casuals and  agency  workers can be treated differently to Substantives - where substantive in tthis case means meeting the   defintion of  an employee - https://www.gov.uk/employment-status/employee )

very interestingly   the business i current work for ( not in show biz)  has  a three way split  among employees  in how things go down   - there are the 'Corporate staff'   and  then there are  the supply chain  and contact centres  who are  broadly Unionised but more importantly  there is a  Union recognition agreement in place  for collective consultation )  and   retail  staff who are by and large not unionised and  do not have a recognised  Union if they are individually  union members)   

interestingly the  contact centres and   supply chain have seen  TUPEs  with  recognition of Union  - due to  need for investment that the parent company doesn't  want on their balance sheet  

if this is straying too far  please tell me to  shut up -    but as a  someone who has been  a  Trades union member  since the age of 19   ( and  union rep for 3 + years)    it is something i do care  about  quite a lot

 


 

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On 06/08/2021 at 20:44, Jan McNulty said:

 

On a performance week I would say so - class, rehearsal, performance or class and 2 performances on matinee days.  On a rehearsal week I don't know for sure.  But I suspect if a dancer took an employer to court I suspect they may find themselves a job free zone.

This is precisely why we have to take dancers of the Shortage Occupation List. As long as we continue to maintain a low barrier to entry which permits the importation of entry level dancers into the UK, dancers will continue to be regarded as  commodities. The more they are seen as commodities the less they are valued and they become more easily exploited. We do not have a shortage of dancers in the UK. We do not have a shortfall in the numbers needed to fill the extremely limited number of vacancies. If we did have a shortage, the dancers we train would be more valuable, and thus have more leverage.

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Corps dancers at the Arts council funded companies (BRB, RB, Northern, Rambert, Scottish Ballet) will be on a high enough salary that they can come in to the country regardless and not all of the smaller companies are listed as sponsors for the shortage occupation scheme. How many dancers come into the country on this scheme? How many UK citizens graduate at an appropriate standard (which I think ultimately is where the debate will lie!), how many of those prefer to stay in the country even if dancing with a minor company? How many vacancies are there each year?

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21 minutes ago, Peony said:

Corps dancers at the Arts council funded companies (BRB, RB, Northern, Rambert, Scottish Ballet) will be on a high enough salary that they can come in to the country regardless and not all of the smaller companies are listed as sponsors for the shortage occupation scheme.

I'm not sure that this is true. The Shortage Occupation List does permit companies to offer a lower wage than the £25,600 minimum income requirement for a tier 2 visa (after all the years of training dancers have put in to get to this standard, this is not a good thing!) I believe most starting salaries for corps dancers in the major companies are lower than this. Inclusion on the shortage list lowers the minimum salary requirement to just £20,480.  

 

Most of the smaller companies pay wages lower than this, which leaves many dancers struggling to afford the cost of living without continued parental assistance.  Surely it is not ethical to leave UK dancers in a position where these are the only options open to them where they receive the same consideration that all other UK citizens can expect as standard? 

 

35 minutes ago, Peony said:

how many of those prefer to stay in the country even if dancing with a minor company?

In many cases this would require additional finances or parental support - wages are low. Many dancers simply aren't that fortunate. 

 

38 minutes ago, Peony said:

How many vacancies are there each year?

Around ten for male dancers and ten for female dancers, depending on the year. Often there are fewer than that. There are more than enough British dancers to fill those vacancies, alongside others who may have the right to work in the UK through Irish or dual nationality, Settled Status or Indefinite Leave to Remain. 

 

In addition to graduate dancers there will be experienced dancers changing companies after long or short term contracts with major ballet companies in Europe or elsewhere - many of which are just as good as our major companies. 

 

As well as allowing companies to offer a reduced wage, inclusion on the Shortage Occupation List also absolves employers of the requirement to advertise the position to the resident labour market for 28 days. Several of the major companies don't advertise for full contract positions, either for entry level corps positions or the higher ranks.  The Paris Opera Ballet is often accused of being a 'closed shop' - but to their credit - at least they hold an advertised audition every year. Don't British dancers also deserve to see positions advertised so they can have a fair shot at them at least? 

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The reference I found was £23800 in 2016 so I think those joining companies with equity contracts would be eligible without the shortage occupation scheme.

If you want to take this further I really do think that there needs to be figures and evidence attached to it for you to be heard. Crucially you will need to show that the reason companies are recruiting from abroad is for a reason other than that those dancers are more skilled and suitable and that UK dancers aren’t choosing to work abroad through preference. 

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10 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

This is precisely why we have to take dancers of the Shortage Occupation List. As long as we continue to maintain a low barrier to entry which permits the importation of entry level dancers into the UK, dancers will continue to be regarded as  commodities. The more they are seen as commodities the less they are valued and they become more easily exploited. We do not have a shortage of dancers in the UK. We do not have a shortfall in the numbers needed to fill the extremely limited number of vacancies. If we did have a shortage, the dancers we train would be more valuable, and thus have more leverage.

 

But are the dancers trained to the standard that the Artistic Directors of this country are looking for?

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59 minutes ago, Peony said:

The reference I found was £23800 in 2016 so I think those joining companies with equity contracts would be eligible without the shortage occupation scheme.

If you want to take this further I really do think that there needs to be figures and evidence attached to it for you to be heard. Crucially you will need to show that the reason companies are recruiting from abroad is for a reason other than that those dancers are more skilled and suitable and that UK dancers aren’t choosing to work abroad through preference. 

If you are correct and dancers joining those companies would be eligible without the scheme then there would be no problem removing dancers from the list. 

 

It is often presented as if inclusion on the Shortage Occupation List is the only way that dancers can be hired from abroad - this is incorrect. They can still be hired with a Tier 2 visa if the company is offering at least the minimum salary and has advertised the position to the resident labour market for the requisite amount of time. There will be a little more red tape, but only the same as every other company hiring overseas workers in the UK has to deal with. 

 

The majority of UK dancers who only possess UK nationality will find it very difficult to work in Europe or elsewhere post-brexit, as the Occupation Shortage List arrangement is not reciprocal. Local workers in those countries will have protections similar to those afforded to those seeking jobs in almost every other profession in the UK. 

 

'More skilled and suitable' isn't the criteria. The criteria for inclusion on the list is that the occupation must be 'in ‘shortage’, in that the demand for labour is higher than the supply.'  It isn't, as demonstrated by the number of UK candidates that turned up to the recent ENB auditions, as cited by GoldenLily17 above, and the much smaller number of full contracts that the companies have to fill each year. The Shortage Occupation List circumvents the need to prove that the overseas candidate the employer wishes to hire is 'more skilled and suitable'. They just need to be good enough, as after all, employers recruiting for occupations on the list must be desperate and struggling to find applicants! Clearly there are sufficient applicants who are good enough and already possess the right to work in the UK as the companies are happy to have those dancers perform in their corps de ballet as students and on short term contracts. They would not put them onstage if they weren't. 

 

It seems unfair to place the burden of proof on UK dancers, when for most other workers in the UK the opposite is the case. We are only asking for the same treatment and consideration that is given to every other profession in the UK as standard. 

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I don’t really understand that, if you want to change something the way to convince people is with hard evidence. That goes for pretty much everything and all occupations, action through unions etc. I feel sure that any employer wanting to be a sponsor has to provide evidence of shortages. You’re challenging that, you need evidence. I don’t quite understand what protections you think apply to other professions? Do you mean professions as that term traditionally only applies to occupations that meet certain criteria including meeting the requirements of a professional body and are restricted titles- so yes that does provide more protection

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54 minutes ago, Peony said:

I don’t really understand that, if you want to change something the way to convince people is with hard evidence. That goes for pretty much everything and all occupations, action through unions etc. I feel sure that any employer wanting to be a sponsor has to provide evidence of shortages. You’re challenging that, you need evidence. I don’t quite understand what protections you think apply to other professions? Do you mean professions as that term traditionally only applies to occupations that meet certain criteria including meeting the requirements of a professional body and are restricted titles- so yes that does provide more protection

The protections I am referring to are the right for UK nationals (and others who already possess the right to work in the UK) to be prioritised for job vacancies and to see those vacancies publicly advertised for 28 days in two places suitable for the job and industry in question.  Workers in all occupations benefit from this as standard, not just those considered professions in the narrower sense of the word. Employers can only hire an applicant on a Tier 2 visa once they can prove that these requirements have been met, thus the onus of proof falls firmly upon the employer. 

 

The data you ask for is not in the public domain, and may not even exist for those companies who do not advertise auditions. In the latter case, any data provided is unlikely to reflect the true picture, as, of course, fewer dancers will apply for vacancies if they don't know they exist in the first place! This puts dancers in an impossible position -  a catch 22. They are at a disadvantage when being considered, and at a disadvantage when proving that they are at a disadvantage when being considered. As I said above, in other UK occupations meeting the Tier 2 visa requirements is the default requirement and the burden of proving that lies with the employer, not the pool of candidates. 

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An enormous amount of occupations are on the ‘shortage’ list though. The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and doesn’t have to comply. It’s all about the best deal for employers not employees which I’m not saying I support. If you want to challenge it you will need some evidence though, which is where a strong union can help you. To become a sponsor the employer must have submitted evidence to show a shortage. Is that publically available? Perhaps the ones receiving public funding would have to divulge that information?

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2 hours ago, Peony said:

An enormous amount of occupations are on the ‘shortage’ list though. The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and doesn’t have to comply. It’s all about the best deal for employers not employees which I’m not saying I support. If you want to challenge it you will need some evidence though, which is where a strong union can help you. To become a sponsor the employer must have submitted evidence to show a shortage. Is that publically available? Perhaps the ones receiving public funding would have to divulge that information?

If it was all about the best deal for the employer, then I'm sure that all occupations would be on the list as no employer would want to lose out.   

 

As I said further up-thread, the NHS operates on a vast scale and has many vacancies it desperately needs to fill. I suspect that any  sufficiently qualified and suitable UK applicant who wanted a full time, year round contract in the NHS would be able to get one somewhere in the UK. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, there are not hundreds of positions for dancers with tens of applicants per post, there are around ten full company contract positions with hundreds of applicants for each post. The situation just isn't comparable.

 

I expect that those NHS positions will be removed from the Shortage Occupation List when the number of applicants increases to no longer necessitate their inclusion.  For the reasons explained above, I just don't have the same faith that this will happen for the young, vulnerable dancers that we are talking about here.  I challenge the government to listen to their plight and prove me wrong by taking action. 

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5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

But are the dancers trained to the standard that the Artistic Directors of this country are looking for?

Of course they are! The Royal Ballet School and English National Ballet School are internationally renowned (as are some of the others which have a slightly different emphasis). They exist to train dancers for positions in leading companies, and dancers from across the world choose to train at them. Entry is highly competitive! Dancers who graduate from either of the above schools are at the standard required to enter the corps de ballet of the parent company and leading companies throughout the world. 

I don’t understand your scepticism? Where do you get this idea from that the dancers trained in these schools aren’t well enough trained?

4 hours ago, Pirouette said:

The protections I am referring to are the right for UK nationals (and others who already possess the right to work in the UK) to be prioritised for job vacancies and to see those vacancies publicly advertised for 28 days in two places suitable for the job and industry in question.  Workers in all occupations benefit from this as standard, not just those considered professions in the narrower sense of the word. Employers can only hire an applicant on a Tier 2 visa once they can prove that these requirements have been met, thus the onus of proof falls firmly upon the employer. 

 

The data you ask for is not in the public domain, and may not even exist for those companies who do not advertise auditions. In the latter case, any data provided is unlikely to reflect the true picture, as, of course, fewer dancers will apply for vacancies if they don't know they exist in the first place! This puts dancers in an impossible position -  a catch 22. They are at a disadvantage when being considered, and at a disadvantage when proving that they are at a disadvantage when being considered. As I said above, in other UK occupations meeting the Tier 2 visa requirements is the default requirement and the burden of proving that lies with the employer, not the pool of candidates. 

Quite right

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3 hours ago, Peony said:

An enormous amount of occupations are on the ‘shortage’ list though. The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and doesn’t have to comply. It’s all about the best deal for employers not employees which I’m not saying I support. If you want to challenge it you will need some evidence though, which is where a strong union can help you. To become a sponsor the employer must have submitted evidence to show a shortage. Is that publically available? Perhaps the ones receiving public funding would have to divulge that information?

Dancers don’t have a strong union. This is one of the problems and a point that has been made earlier in this thread. We have the evidence that graduates are emerging into the workplace every year who could fill the small number of vacancies. 

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16 hours ago, Peony said:

Corps dancers at the Arts council funded companies (BRB, RB, Northern, Rambert, Scottish Ballet) will be on a high enough salary that they can come in to the country regardless and not all of the smaller companies are listed as sponsors for the shortage occupation scheme. How many dancers come into the country on this scheme? How many UK citizens graduate at an appropriate standard (which I think ultimately is where the debate will lie!), how many of those prefer to stay in the country even if dancing with a minor company? How many vacancies are there each year?

What do you consider to be a minor company? Scottish Ballet hasn’t hired anyone for 2 years, Northern only wants short females, Ballet Theatre UK only has 16 odd dancers and hasn’t hired for 2 years, Ballet Cymru appears to have only 4 resident company members now, Vienna Festival Ballet has gone bust, Ballet West International touring company closed engulfed by scandal, Balletboyz isn’t an option if you are female, and Ballet Black isn’t an option if you are white. 


So where are all these jobs which need to

be filled? The number of vacancies is tiny. Perhaps 10 for women and 10 for men including apprenticeships per annum.

 

I don’t know a single British Royal Ballet or English National Ballet graduate who hasn’t hoped to get a contract at either Royal, ENB or Birmingham, and who would have been pleased to be offered a contract with Scottish or Northern. In the absence of those job offers most have auditioned throughout Europe and those European contracts in national and regional companies have been their salvation.

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6 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

But are the dancers trained to the standard that the Artistic Directors of this country are looking for?

Certainly good enough to be regularly used to boost the corps…

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15 hours ago, Pirouette said:

I'm not sure that this is true. The Shortage Occupation List does permit companies to offer a lower wage than the £25,600 minimum income requirement for a tier 2 visa (after all the years of training dancers have put in to get to this standard, this is not a good thing!) I believe most starting salaries for corps dancers in the major companies are lower than this. Inclusion on the shortage list lowers the minimum salary requirement to just £20,480.  

 

Most of the smaller companies pay wages lower than this, which leaves many dancers struggling to afford the cost of living without continued parental assistance.  Surely it is not ethical to leave UK dancers in a position where these are the only options open to them where they receive the same consideration that all other UK citizens can expect as standard? 

 

In many cases this would require additional finances or parental support - wages are low. Many dancers simply aren't that fortunate. 

 

Around ten for male dancers and ten for female dancers, depending on the year. Often there are fewer than that. There are more than enough British dancers to fill those vacancies, alongside others who may have the right to work in the UK through Irish or dual nationality, Settled Status or Indefinite Leave to Remain. 

 

In addition to graduate dancers there will be experienced dancers changing companies after long or short term contracts with major ballet companies in Europe or elsewhere - many of which are just as good as our major companies. 

 

As well as allowing companies to offer a reduced wage, inclusion on the Shortage Occupation List also absolves employers of the requirement to advertise the position to the resident labour market for 28 days. Several of the major companies don't advertise for full contract positions, either for entry level corps positions or the higher ranks.  The Paris Opera Ballet is often accused of being a 'closed shop' - but to their credit - at least they hold an advertised audition every year. Don't British dancers also deserve to see positions advertised so they can have a fair shot at them at least? 

Absolutely right

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Things aren’t nearly as Rosy for the rest of the UK workforce as you imagine. You can disagree with other people but you really do need to come up with some tangible evidence to back up your opinion 

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49 minutes ago, Peony said:

Things aren’t nearly as Rosy for the rest of the UK workforce as you imagine. You can disagree with other people but you really do need to come up with some tangible evidence to back up your opinion 

do you mean   the workforce outside the  performing arts ? 

 the workforce where even the Real Living wage' is no longer enough to  recruit  and retain at entry  level  jobs ?

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6 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

Of course they are! The Royal Ballet School and English National Ballet School are internationally renowned (as are some of the others which have a slightly different emphasis). They exist to train dancers for positions in leading companies, and dancers from across the world choose to train at them. Entry is highly competitive! Dancers who graduate from either of the above schools are at the standard required to enter the corps de ballet of the parent company and leading companies throughout the world. 

I don’t understand your scepticism? Where do you get this idea from that the dancers trained in these schools aren’t well enough trained?

Quite right

 

I can't remember if it was this thread or the recently hidden one but the implication  was that British graduates did not seem as successful in gaining jobs in the UK companies as the international students.

 

It was a genuine query.

 

6 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

Dancers don’t have a strong union. This is one of the problems and a point that has been made earlier in this thread. We have the evidence that graduates are emerging into the workplace every year who could fill the small number of vacancies. 

 

Could you please provide evidence?  Most of what you have alleged in this and in other threads has basically been hearsay and your opinion not backed up by facts.

 

5 hours ago, danceparent said:

Certainly good enough to be regularly used to boost the corps…

 

Many years ago I went to a talk by ballet staff members of BRB.  They were saying that when they looked at students different companies had different needs - some were looking for dancers to fill the corps and others were looking for dancers THEY felt had the potential to reach the top.

5 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

What do you consider to be a minor company? Scottish Ballet hasn’t hired anyone for 2 years, Northern only wants short females, Ballet Theatre UK only has 16 odd dancers and hasn’t hired for 2 years, Ballet Cymru appears to have only 4 resident company members now, Vienna Festival Ballet has gone bust, Ballet West International touring company closed engulfed by scandal, Balletboyz isn’t an option if you are female, and Ballet Black isn’t an option if you are white. 

 

 

We have been in a pandemic vortex since March 2020 - how are companies precariously balanced financially supposed to take on new dancers at the moment?  Even the Royal Ballet has had a voluntary redundancy scheme that has included dancers.

 

As far as height requirements go don't most companies have them?  Over many years now of reading the Doing Dance forum I have seen many complaints that companies in Europe want taller dancers than most British dancers seem to be.  If you look at the makeup of NB (as I know you will have done) they have a number of male dancers who are on the shorter side of tall - realistically what would be the point of taking on a lady who was 6' tall.  Requirements surely vary with the need at the time.

 

If you are going to make allegations and insinuations please provide evidence and, in line with the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy, please do not hide behind a pseudonym.

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10 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I can't remember if it was this thread or the recently hidden one but the implication  was that British graduates did not seem as successful in gaining jobs in the UK companies as the international students.

 

It was a genuine query.

 

 

Could you please provide evidence?  Most of what you have alleged in this and in other threads has basically been hearsay and your opinion not backed up by facts.

 

 

Many years ago I went to a talk by ballet staff members of BRB.  They were saying that when they looked at students different companies had different needs - some were looking for dancers to fill the corps and others were looking for dancers THEY felt had the potential to reach the top.

 

We have been in a pandemic vortex since March 2020 - how are companies precariously balanced financially supposed to take on new dancers at the moment?  Even the Royal Ballet has had a voluntary redundancy scheme that has included dancers.

 

As far as height requirements go don't most companies have them?  Over many years now of reading the Doing Dance forum I have seen many complaints that companies in Europe want taller dancers than most British dancers seem to be.  If you look at the makeup of NB (as I know you will have done) they have a number of male dancers who are on the shorter side of tall - realistically what would be the point of taking on a lady who was 6' tall.  Requirements surely vary with the need at the time.

 

If you are going to make allegations and insinuations please provide evidence and, in line with the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy, please do not hide behind a pseudonym.

There are a lot of points to address here, some have been answered elsewhere in the thread by other members (also with pseudonyms). However I will address them all in due course when I have time. Briefly, however, most companies have dancers with a range of heights. Some ask for a median of around 5’6” and I know of 3 in Europe and Russia which want very tall dancers over 5’8”, that is very useful for tall dancers, but of course now not possible for UK citizens. 
The point of highlighting Northern’s height limits was not to criticise the company for its choices, but to highlight how limited opportunities are within the UK. The same goes for the other companies listed.

You could argue that because we have been in a pandemic is was even more important that companies with full corps de ballet contracts available should have demonstrated their support for emerging British talent by employing a higher number of British graduates and freelancers. However they did not. It is easy to check these facts by looking at the destinations of graduates from the schools which have been published online and doing a few minutes research into dancers’ bios.

 

Regarding your point about “allegations”, I am not sure what you mean? All of the information about these companies is easily checked and if you are referring to what I said about Ballet West. The reasons for its closure are also in the public domain. That is not an allegation. It is a shame that the touring company closed as it provided recent graduates with wonderful opportunities for international touring. 

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12 minutes ago, Goldenlily17 said:

I can't remember if it was this thread or the recently hidden one but the implication  was that British graduates did not seem as successful in gaining jobs in the UK companies as the international students.

I think it really depends which schools the British dancers graduate from. For example, those who have trained at RBS and ENBS usually are successful in securing contracts whether or not those contracts are for companies in this country is debatable. There is no excuse for British companies not to be taking on these dancers having been trained to an extremely high standard. However RBS do not take on many British females in the first place and I think ENBS is similar. You’ll find a larger amount of British dancers at the other upper schools eg Elmhurst, Central, Tring. As for these upper schools it’s rare for English dancers to secure contracts in this country which is evident from looking at the graduation destinations on their websites. The top companies in this country are more likely to go to RBS to scout talent with more internationals than British students. It then makes sense for them to take on an international dancer. Maybe the problem lies in the intake to the top upper schools and the rest of the schools need to be supporting and training their dancers to a higher standard. 

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28 minutes ago, Glissé said:

I think it really depends which schools the British dancers graduate from. For example, those who have trained at RBS and ENBS usually are successful in securing contracts whether or not those contracts are for companies in this country is debatable. There is no excuse for British companies not to be taking on these dancers having been trained to an extremely high standard. However RBS do not take on many British females in the first place and I think ENBS is similar. You’ll find a larger amount of British dancers at the other upper schools eg Elmhurst, Central, Tring. As for these upper schools it’s rare for English dancers to secure contracts in this country which is evident from looking at the graduation destinations on their websites. The top companies in this country are more likely to go to RBS to scout talent with more internationals than British students. It then makes sense for them to take on an international dancer. Maybe the problem lies in the intake to the top upper schools and the rest of the schools need to be supporting and training their dancers to a higher standard. 

I agree with this about the leading upper schools. There isn’t any excuse for RB and ENB not taking more of their own British graduates who have been so carefully selected over the years, especially now when British graduates and freelancers who trained at these schools don’t have the right to work for the wide range of European companies which have been on offer until now. However, I don’t see why it makes more sense for them to take a majority of international dancers when there are so few contracts and apprenticeships available and it is cheaper and more straightforward to employ their British talent. (This is aside from the fact that it would fulfil the lifelong ambitions of those dancers to move from their alma mater into the company). 
Regarding the other schools, lots of those dancers won’t be aspiring to work for ENB or Royal, but for dance theatre companies like Mathew Bourne, so the ambitions aren’t quite the same.

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1 hour ago, Goldenlily17 said:

if you are referring to what I said about Ballet West. The reasons for its closure are also in the public domain. That is not an allegation. It is a shame that the touring company closed as it provided recent graduates with wonderful opportunities for international touring

The touring company of Ballet West was made up of the school's students.  You are correct it is in the public domain, but I would not under any circumstances use it as a good example.  Two of my students went through the school.

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11 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

The touring company of Ballet West was made up of the school's students.  You are correct it is in the public domain, but I would not under any circumstances use it as a good example.  Two of my students went through the school.

There were graduates and recent graduates of ENBS and other schools who went on the international tours, ie Swan Lake in Malaysia. At least three of them have told me they thought it was good experience, and freelance dancers told them the company provided useful summer short contracts.

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41 minutes ago, Goldenlily17 said:

There were graduates and recent graduates of ENBS and other schools who went on the international tours, ie Swan Lake in Malaysia. At least three of them have told me they thought it was good experience, and freelance dancers told them the company provided useful summer short contracts.

 

3 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

 

 

Regarding your point about “allegations”, I am not sure what you mean? All of the information about these companies is easily checked and if you are referring to what I said about Ballet West. The reasons for its closure are also in the public domain. That is not an allegation. It is a shame that the touring company closed as it provided recent graduates with wonderful opportunities for international touring. 

 

You have answered your own point re "allegations" with your second sentence in the first quote.  Although this thread is not specifically about schools the rules laid down in the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy still applies to this thread:

 


"Discussion of schools and courses This may lead to the expression of strong opinions, both positive and negative when experiences and views have understandably differed. Against that background, the general Acceptable Use Policy Conditions continue to apply but, as regards schools and courses, additional parameters are added.
    •    Posts about schools or courses must report personal experiences only (posted by the student, the student’s parent/guardian or the student’s teacher with permission).
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Either on this thread or another you made allegations about dancers who had been taken into other companies such as they had married American citizens  so that they had a "right to work".  You did not provide proof of how you knew this given that the 5 companies I gave as examples were chosen by me at random.

 

If you continue to respond without proof your posts are, at best, likely to be hidden and this thread will be locked.

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2 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

Regarding the other schools, lots of those dancers won’t be aspiring to work for ENB or Royal, but for dance theatre companies like Mathew Bourne, so the ambitions aren’t quite the same.

Even though they won’t  be aspiring to join ENB or Royal they may still have similar company ambitions to those who are not offered the Aud Jebson apprenticeship. For example Northern Ballet, Scottish Ballet etc. 

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I’m trying to follow this thread but when it started on about equity etc I got lost 🤣

All graduating students have dreams and aspirations but the reality is that they need a job, any job. We aimed for our Ds and Dd just to get their foot on the first rung of the ladder. Nothing too prestigious, just somewhere that they could dance in and be happy, a better environment that the school had provided. This would prove to them and us that maybe the pain had been worth it in the end. One found their happy dancing place and the other found greater happiness in stopping. Covid and Brexit has destroyed the careers of two generations of graduates before they even started and countless others who have lost contracts 😢 I feel that the British ballet companies could have done more. And that doesn’t mean increasing the use of students in their productions free of charge. Both mine were used multiple times in productions, pre and post graduation, but weren’t good enough to be paid. 

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That's not good CDR but I think the companies have all been in a very precarious position and, indeed, they still are.

 

I saw both BRB and NB in June and I think they used students in a lot of corps roles so that they could maintain cast bubbles.  

 

If the world was normal would they usually have expected some sort of payment?  I remember seeing Xander Parish, Alex Campbell, Joe Caley and James Barton with BRB during midscale when they were all still students - would they have been performing for the experience or would they have had short term contracts do you know?

 

I know NB have recently held auditions because I saw the notice on the website but I do not know how many dancers they were looking to contract.

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55 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

That's not good CDR but I think the companies have all been in a very precarious position and, indeed, they still are.

 

I saw both BRB and NB in June and I think they used students in a lot of corps roles so that they could maintain cast bubbles.  

 

If the world was normal would they usually have expected some sort of payment?  I remember seeing Xander Parish, Alex Campbell, Joe Caley and James Barton with BRB during midscale when they were all still students - would they have been performing for the experience or would they have had short term contracts do you know?

 

I know NB have recently held auditions because I saw the notice on the website but I do not know how many dancers they were looking to contract.

Ds did 2 shows and toured, Dd did 5 shows and toured. They were given money for food and the transport and hotel was paid for. They also provided pointe shoes for Dd. But no wage, it was for the experience 😒 

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