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Brexit, EU citizenship and job opportunities


Cluelessmomma

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59 minutes ago, Peony said:

The reference I found was £23800 in 2016 so I think those joining companies with equity contracts would be eligible without the shortage occupation scheme.

If you want to take this further I really do think that there needs to be figures and evidence attached to it for you to be heard. Crucially you will need to show that the reason companies are recruiting from abroad is for a reason other than that those dancers are more skilled and suitable and that UK dancers aren’t choosing to work abroad through preference. 

If you are correct and dancers joining those companies would be eligible without the scheme then there would be no problem removing dancers from the list. 

 

It is often presented as if inclusion on the Shortage Occupation List is the only way that dancers can be hired from abroad - this is incorrect. They can still be hired with a Tier 2 visa if the company is offering at least the minimum salary and has advertised the position to the resident labour market for the requisite amount of time. There will be a little more red tape, but only the same as every other company hiring overseas workers in the UK has to deal with. 

 

The majority of UK dancers who only possess UK nationality will find it very difficult to work in Europe or elsewhere post-brexit, as the Occupation Shortage List arrangement is not reciprocal. Local workers in those countries will have protections similar to those afforded to those seeking jobs in almost every other profession in the UK. 

 

'More skilled and suitable' isn't the criteria. The criteria for inclusion on the list is that the occupation must be 'in ‘shortage’, in that the demand for labour is higher than the supply.'  It isn't, as demonstrated by the number of UK candidates that turned up to the recent ENB auditions, as cited by GoldenLily17 above, and the much smaller number of full contracts that the companies have to fill each year. The Shortage Occupation List circumvents the need to prove that the overseas candidate the employer wishes to hire is 'more skilled and suitable'. They just need to be good enough, as after all, employers recruiting for occupations on the list must be desperate and struggling to find applicants! Clearly there are sufficient applicants who are good enough and already possess the right to work in the UK as the companies are happy to have those dancers perform in their corps de ballet as students and on short term contracts. They would not put them onstage if they weren't. 

 

It seems unfair to place the burden of proof on UK dancers, when for most other workers in the UK the opposite is the case. We are only asking for the same treatment and consideration that is given to every other profession in the UK as standard. 

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I don’t really understand that, if you want to change something the way to convince people is with hard evidence. That goes for pretty much everything and all occupations, action through unions etc. I feel sure that any employer wanting to be a sponsor has to provide evidence of shortages. You’re challenging that, you need evidence. I don’t quite understand what protections you think apply to other professions? Do you mean professions as that term traditionally only applies to occupations that meet certain criteria including meeting the requirements of a professional body and are restricted titles- so yes that does provide more protection

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54 minutes ago, Peony said:

I don’t really understand that, if you want to change something the way to convince people is with hard evidence. That goes for pretty much everything and all occupations, action through unions etc. I feel sure that any employer wanting to be a sponsor has to provide evidence of shortages. You’re challenging that, you need evidence. I don’t quite understand what protections you think apply to other professions? Do you mean professions as that term traditionally only applies to occupations that meet certain criteria including meeting the requirements of a professional body and are restricted titles- so yes that does provide more protection

The protections I am referring to are the right for UK nationals (and others who already possess the right to work in the UK) to be prioritised for job vacancies and to see those vacancies publicly advertised for 28 days in two places suitable for the job and industry in question.  Workers in all occupations benefit from this as standard, not just those considered professions in the narrower sense of the word. Employers can only hire an applicant on a Tier 2 visa once they can prove that these requirements have been met, thus the onus of proof falls firmly upon the employer. 

 

The data you ask for is not in the public domain, and may not even exist for those companies who do not advertise auditions. In the latter case, any data provided is unlikely to reflect the true picture, as, of course, fewer dancers will apply for vacancies if they don't know they exist in the first place! This puts dancers in an impossible position -  a catch 22. They are at a disadvantage when being considered, and at a disadvantage when proving that they are at a disadvantage when being considered. As I said above, in other UK occupations meeting the Tier 2 visa requirements is the default requirement and the burden of proving that lies with the employer, not the pool of candidates. 

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An enormous amount of occupations are on the ‘shortage’ list though. The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and doesn’t have to comply. It’s all about the best deal for employers not employees which I’m not saying I support. If you want to challenge it you will need some evidence though, which is where a strong union can help you. To become a sponsor the employer must have submitted evidence to show a shortage. Is that publically available? Perhaps the ones receiving public funding would have to divulge that information?

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2 hours ago, Peony said:

An enormous amount of occupations are on the ‘shortage’ list though. The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and doesn’t have to comply. It’s all about the best deal for employers not employees which I’m not saying I support. If you want to challenge it you will need some evidence though, which is where a strong union can help you. To become a sponsor the employer must have submitted evidence to show a shortage. Is that publically available? Perhaps the ones receiving public funding would have to divulge that information?

If it was all about the best deal for the employer, then I'm sure that all occupations would be on the list as no employer would want to lose out.   

 

As I said further up-thread, the NHS operates on a vast scale and has many vacancies it desperately needs to fill. I suspect that any  sufficiently qualified and suitable UK applicant who wanted a full time, year round contract in the NHS would be able to get one somewhere in the UK. As has been pointed out several times on this thread, there are not hundreds of positions for dancers with tens of applicants per post, there are around ten full company contract positions with hundreds of applicants for each post. The situation just isn't comparable.

 

I expect that those NHS positions will be removed from the Shortage Occupation List when the number of applicants increases to no longer necessitate their inclusion.  For the reasons explained above, I just don't have the same faith that this will happen for the young, vulnerable dancers that we are talking about here.  I challenge the government to listen to their plight and prove me wrong by taking action. 

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5 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

But are the dancers trained to the standard that the Artistic Directors of this country are looking for?

Of course they are! The Royal Ballet School and English National Ballet School are internationally renowned (as are some of the others which have a slightly different emphasis). They exist to train dancers for positions in leading companies, and dancers from across the world choose to train at them. Entry is highly competitive! Dancers who graduate from either of the above schools are at the standard required to enter the corps de ballet of the parent company and leading companies throughout the world. 

I don’t understand your scepticism? Where do you get this idea from that the dancers trained in these schools aren’t well enough trained?

4 hours ago, Pirouette said:

The protections I am referring to are the right for UK nationals (and others who already possess the right to work in the UK) to be prioritised for job vacancies and to see those vacancies publicly advertised for 28 days in two places suitable for the job and industry in question.  Workers in all occupations benefit from this as standard, not just those considered professions in the narrower sense of the word. Employers can only hire an applicant on a Tier 2 visa once they can prove that these requirements have been met, thus the onus of proof falls firmly upon the employer. 

 

The data you ask for is not in the public domain, and may not even exist for those companies who do not advertise auditions. In the latter case, any data provided is unlikely to reflect the true picture, as, of course, fewer dancers will apply for vacancies if they don't know they exist in the first place! This puts dancers in an impossible position -  a catch 22. They are at a disadvantage when being considered, and at a disadvantage when proving that they are at a disadvantage when being considered. As I said above, in other UK occupations meeting the Tier 2 visa requirements is the default requirement and the burden of proving that lies with the employer, not the pool of candidates. 

Quite right

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3 hours ago, Peony said:

An enormous amount of occupations are on the ‘shortage’ list though. The NHS is the biggest employer in Europe and doesn’t have to comply. It’s all about the best deal for employers not employees which I’m not saying I support. If you want to challenge it you will need some evidence though, which is where a strong union can help you. To become a sponsor the employer must have submitted evidence to show a shortage. Is that publically available? Perhaps the ones receiving public funding would have to divulge that information?

Dancers don’t have a strong union. This is one of the problems and a point that has been made earlier in this thread. We have the evidence that graduates are emerging into the workplace every year who could fill the small number of vacancies. 

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16 hours ago, Peony said:

Corps dancers at the Arts council funded companies (BRB, RB, Northern, Rambert, Scottish Ballet) will be on a high enough salary that they can come in to the country regardless and not all of the smaller companies are listed as sponsors for the shortage occupation scheme. How many dancers come into the country on this scheme? How many UK citizens graduate at an appropriate standard (which I think ultimately is where the debate will lie!), how many of those prefer to stay in the country even if dancing with a minor company? How many vacancies are there each year?

What do you consider to be a minor company? Scottish Ballet hasn’t hired anyone for 2 years, Northern only wants short females, Ballet Theatre UK only has 16 odd dancers and hasn’t hired for 2 years, Ballet Cymru appears to have only 4 resident company members now, Vienna Festival Ballet has gone bust, Ballet West International touring company closed engulfed by scandal, Balletboyz isn’t an option if you are female, and Ballet Black isn’t an option if you are white. 


So where are all these jobs which need to

be filled? The number of vacancies is tiny. Perhaps 10 for women and 10 for men including apprenticeships per annum.

 

I don’t know a single British Royal Ballet or English National Ballet graduate who hasn’t hoped to get a contract at either Royal, ENB or Birmingham, and who would have been pleased to be offered a contract with Scottish or Northern. In the absence of those job offers most have auditioned throughout Europe and those European contracts in national and regional companies have been their salvation.

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15 hours ago, Pirouette said:

I'm not sure that this is true. The Shortage Occupation List does permit companies to offer a lower wage than the £25,600 minimum income requirement for a tier 2 visa (after all the years of training dancers have put in to get to this standard, this is not a good thing!) I believe most starting salaries for corps dancers in the major companies are lower than this. Inclusion on the shortage list lowers the minimum salary requirement to just £20,480.  

 

Most of the smaller companies pay wages lower than this, which leaves many dancers struggling to afford the cost of living without continued parental assistance.  Surely it is not ethical to leave UK dancers in a position where these are the only options open to them where they receive the same consideration that all other UK citizens can expect as standard? 

 

In many cases this would require additional finances or parental support - wages are low. Many dancers simply aren't that fortunate. 

 

Around ten for male dancers and ten for female dancers, depending on the year. Often there are fewer than that. There are more than enough British dancers to fill those vacancies, alongside others who may have the right to work in the UK through Irish or dual nationality, Settled Status or Indefinite Leave to Remain. 

 

In addition to graduate dancers there will be experienced dancers changing companies after long or short term contracts with major ballet companies in Europe or elsewhere - many of which are just as good as our major companies. 

 

As well as allowing companies to offer a reduced wage, inclusion on the Shortage Occupation List also absolves employers of the requirement to advertise the position to the resident labour market for 28 days. Several of the major companies don't advertise for full contract positions, either for entry level corps positions or the higher ranks.  The Paris Opera Ballet is often accused of being a 'closed shop' - but to their credit - at least they hold an advertised audition every year. Don't British dancers also deserve to see positions advertised so they can have a fair shot at them at least? 

Absolutely right

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49 minutes ago, Peony said:

Things aren’t nearly as Rosy for the rest of the UK workforce as you imagine. You can disagree with other people but you really do need to come up with some tangible evidence to back up your opinion 

do you mean   the workforce outside the  performing arts ? 

 the workforce where even the Real Living wage' is no longer enough to  recruit  and retain at entry  level  jobs ?

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6 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

Of course they are! The Royal Ballet School and English National Ballet School are internationally renowned (as are some of the others which have a slightly different emphasis). They exist to train dancers for positions in leading companies, and dancers from across the world choose to train at them. Entry is highly competitive! Dancers who graduate from either of the above schools are at the standard required to enter the corps de ballet of the parent company and leading companies throughout the world. 

I don’t understand your scepticism? Where do you get this idea from that the dancers trained in these schools aren’t well enough trained?

Quite right

 

I can't remember if it was this thread or the recently hidden one but the implication  was that British graduates did not seem as successful in gaining jobs in the UK companies as the international students.

 

It was a genuine query.

 

6 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

Dancers don’t have a strong union. This is one of the problems and a point that has been made earlier in this thread. We have the evidence that graduates are emerging into the workplace every year who could fill the small number of vacancies. 

 

Could you please provide evidence?  Most of what you have alleged in this and in other threads has basically been hearsay and your opinion not backed up by facts.

 

5 hours ago, danceparent said:

Certainly good enough to be regularly used to boost the corps…

 

Many years ago I went to a talk by ballet staff members of BRB.  They were saying that when they looked at students different companies had different needs - some were looking for dancers to fill the corps and others were looking for dancers THEY felt had the potential to reach the top.

5 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

What do you consider to be a minor company? Scottish Ballet hasn’t hired anyone for 2 years, Northern only wants short females, Ballet Theatre UK only has 16 odd dancers and hasn’t hired for 2 years, Ballet Cymru appears to have only 4 resident company members now, Vienna Festival Ballet has gone bust, Ballet West International touring company closed engulfed by scandal, Balletboyz isn’t an option if you are female, and Ballet Black isn’t an option if you are white. 

 

 

We have been in a pandemic vortex since March 2020 - how are companies precariously balanced financially supposed to take on new dancers at the moment?  Even the Royal Ballet has had a voluntary redundancy scheme that has included dancers.

 

As far as height requirements go don't most companies have them?  Over many years now of reading the Doing Dance forum I have seen many complaints that companies in Europe want taller dancers than most British dancers seem to be.  If you look at the makeup of NB (as I know you will have done) they have a number of male dancers who are on the shorter side of tall - realistically what would be the point of taking on a lady who was 6' tall.  Requirements surely vary with the need at the time.

 

If you are going to make allegations and insinuations please provide evidence and, in line with the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy, please do not hide behind a pseudonym.

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10 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I can't remember if it was this thread or the recently hidden one but the implication  was that British graduates did not seem as successful in gaining jobs in the UK companies as the international students.

 

It was a genuine query.

 

 

Could you please provide evidence?  Most of what you have alleged in this and in other threads has basically been hearsay and your opinion not backed up by facts.

 

 

Many years ago I went to a talk by ballet staff members of BRB.  They were saying that when they looked at students different companies had different needs - some were looking for dancers to fill the corps and others were looking for dancers THEY felt had the potential to reach the top.

 

We have been in a pandemic vortex since March 2020 - how are companies precariously balanced financially supposed to take on new dancers at the moment?  Even the Royal Ballet has had a voluntary redundancy scheme that has included dancers.

 

As far as height requirements go don't most companies have them?  Over many years now of reading the Doing Dance forum I have seen many complaints that companies in Europe want taller dancers than most British dancers seem to be.  If you look at the makeup of NB (as I know you will have done) they have a number of male dancers who are on the shorter side of tall - realistically what would be the point of taking on a lady who was 6' tall.  Requirements surely vary with the need at the time.

 

If you are going to make allegations and insinuations please provide evidence and, in line with the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy, please do not hide behind a pseudonym.

There are a lot of points to address here, some have been answered elsewhere in the thread by other members (also with pseudonyms). However I will address them all in due course when I have time. Briefly, however, most companies have dancers with a range of heights. Some ask for a median of around 5’6” and I know of 3 in Europe and Russia which want very tall dancers over 5’8”, that is very useful for tall dancers, but of course now not possible for UK citizens. 
The point of highlighting Northern’s height limits was not to criticise the company for its choices, but to highlight how limited opportunities are within the UK. The same goes for the other companies listed.

You could argue that because we have been in a pandemic is was even more important that companies with full corps de ballet contracts available should have demonstrated their support for emerging British talent by employing a higher number of British graduates and freelancers. However they did not. It is easy to check these facts by looking at the destinations of graduates from the schools which have been published online and doing a few minutes research into dancers’ bios.

 

Regarding your point about “allegations”, I am not sure what you mean? All of the information about these companies is easily checked and if you are referring to what I said about Ballet West. The reasons for its closure are also in the public domain. That is not an allegation. It is a shame that the touring company closed as it provided recent graduates with wonderful opportunities for international touring. 

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12 minutes ago, Goldenlily17 said:

I can't remember if it was this thread or the recently hidden one but the implication  was that British graduates did not seem as successful in gaining jobs in the UK companies as the international students.

I think it really depends which schools the British dancers graduate from. For example, those who have trained at RBS and ENBS usually are successful in securing contracts whether or not those contracts are for companies in this country is debatable. There is no excuse for British companies not to be taking on these dancers having been trained to an extremely high standard. However RBS do not take on many British females in the first place and I think ENBS is similar. You’ll find a larger amount of British dancers at the other upper schools eg Elmhurst, Central, Tring. As for these upper schools it’s rare for English dancers to secure contracts in this country which is evident from looking at the graduation destinations on their websites. The top companies in this country are more likely to go to RBS to scout talent with more internationals than British students. It then makes sense for them to take on an international dancer. Maybe the problem lies in the intake to the top upper schools and the rest of the schools need to be supporting and training their dancers to a higher standard. 

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28 minutes ago, Glissé said:

I think it really depends which schools the British dancers graduate from. For example, those who have trained at RBS and ENBS usually are successful in securing contracts whether or not those contracts are for companies in this country is debatable. There is no excuse for British companies not to be taking on these dancers having been trained to an extremely high standard. However RBS do not take on many British females in the first place and I think ENBS is similar. You’ll find a larger amount of British dancers at the other upper schools eg Elmhurst, Central, Tring. As for these upper schools it’s rare for English dancers to secure contracts in this country which is evident from looking at the graduation destinations on their websites. The top companies in this country are more likely to go to RBS to scout talent with more internationals than British students. It then makes sense for them to take on an international dancer. Maybe the problem lies in the intake to the top upper schools and the rest of the schools need to be supporting and training their dancers to a higher standard. 

I agree with this about the leading upper schools. There isn’t any excuse for RB and ENB not taking more of their own British graduates who have been so carefully selected over the years, especially now when British graduates and freelancers who trained at these schools don’t have the right to work for the wide range of European companies which have been on offer until now. However, I don’t see why it makes more sense for them to take a majority of international dancers when there are so few contracts and apprenticeships available and it is cheaper and more straightforward to employ their British talent. (This is aside from the fact that it would fulfil the lifelong ambitions of those dancers to move from their alma mater into the company). 
Regarding the other schools, lots of those dancers won’t be aspiring to work for ENB or Royal, but for dance theatre companies like Mathew Bourne, so the ambitions aren’t quite the same.

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1 hour ago, Goldenlily17 said:

if you are referring to what I said about Ballet West. The reasons for its closure are also in the public domain. That is not an allegation. It is a shame that the touring company closed as it provided recent graduates with wonderful opportunities for international touring

The touring company of Ballet West was made up of the school's students.  You are correct it is in the public domain, but I would not under any circumstances use it as a good example.  Two of my students went through the school.

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11 minutes ago, Pas de Quatre said:

The touring company of Ballet West was made up of the school's students.  You are correct it is in the public domain, but I would not under any circumstances use it as a good example.  Two of my students went through the school.

There were graduates and recent graduates of ENBS and other schools who went on the international tours, ie Swan Lake in Malaysia. At least three of them have told me they thought it was good experience, and freelance dancers told them the company provided useful summer short contracts.

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41 minutes ago, Goldenlily17 said:

There were graduates and recent graduates of ENBS and other schools who went on the international tours, ie Swan Lake in Malaysia. At least three of them have told me they thought it was good experience, and freelance dancers told them the company provided useful summer short contracts.

 

3 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

 

 

Regarding your point about “allegations”, I am not sure what you mean? All of the information about these companies is easily checked and if you are referring to what I said about Ballet West. The reasons for its closure are also in the public domain. That is not an allegation. It is a shame that the touring company closed as it provided recent graduates with wonderful opportunities for international touring. 

 

You have answered your own point re "allegations" with your second sentence in the first quote.  Although this thread is not specifically about schools the rules laid down in the Forum's Acceptable Use Policy still applies to this thread:

 


"Discussion of schools and courses This may lead to the expression of strong opinions, both positive and negative when experiences and views have understandably differed. Against that background, the general Acceptable Use Policy Conditions continue to apply but, as regards schools and courses, additional parameters are added.
    •    Posts about schools or courses must report personal experiences only (posted by the student, the student’s parent/guardian or the student’s teacher with permission).
    •    They must not include second-hand information or innuendo e.g. claiming to speak on someone else’s behalf, for “many people”, for “the majority of students” and so forth.
    •    Nothing should be included that could be construed as defamatory in any way and which could therefore lead to legal ramifications for the Forum and members."

 

Either on this thread or another you made allegations about dancers who had been taken into other companies such as they had married American citizens  so that they had a "right to work".  You did not provide proof of how you knew this given that the 5 companies I gave as examples were chosen by me at random.

 

If you continue to respond without proof your posts are, at best, likely to be hidden and this thread will be locked.

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2 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

Regarding the other schools, lots of those dancers won’t be aspiring to work for ENB or Royal, but for dance theatre companies like Mathew Bourne, so the ambitions aren’t quite the same.

Even though they won’t  be aspiring to join ENB or Royal they may still have similar company ambitions to those who are not offered the Aud Jebson apprenticeship. For example Northern Ballet, Scottish Ballet etc. 

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I’m trying to follow this thread but when it started on about equity etc I got lost 🤣

All graduating students have dreams and aspirations but the reality is that they need a job, any job. We aimed for our Ds and Dd just to get their foot on the first rung of the ladder. Nothing too prestigious, just somewhere that they could dance in and be happy, a better environment that the school had provided. This would prove to them and us that maybe the pain had been worth it in the end. One found their happy dancing place and the other found greater happiness in stopping. Covid and Brexit has destroyed the careers of two generations of graduates before they even started and countless others who have lost contracts 😢 I feel that the British ballet companies could have done more. And that doesn’t mean increasing the use of students in their productions free of charge. Both mine were used multiple times in productions, pre and post graduation, but weren’t good enough to be paid. 

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That's not good CDR but I think the companies have all been in a very precarious position and, indeed, they still are.

 

I saw both BRB and NB in June and I think they used students in a lot of corps roles so that they could maintain cast bubbles.  

 

If the world was normal would they usually have expected some sort of payment?  I remember seeing Xander Parish, Alex Campbell, Joe Caley and James Barton with BRB during midscale when they were all still students - would they have been performing for the experience or would they have had short term contracts do you know?

 

I know NB have recently held auditions because I saw the notice on the website but I do not know how many dancers they were looking to contract.

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55 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

That's not good CDR but I think the companies have all been in a very precarious position and, indeed, they still are.

 

I saw both BRB and NB in June and I think they used students in a lot of corps roles so that they could maintain cast bubbles.  

 

If the world was normal would they usually have expected some sort of payment?  I remember seeing Xander Parish, Alex Campbell, Joe Caley and James Barton with BRB during midscale when they were all still students - would they have been performing for the experience or would they have had short term contracts do you know?

 

I know NB have recently held auditions because I saw the notice on the website but I do not know how many dancers they were looking to contract.

Ds did 2 shows and toured, Dd did 5 shows and toured. They were given money for food and the transport and hotel was paid for. They also provided pointe shoes for Dd. But no wage, it was for the experience 😒 

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4 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

That's not good CDR but I think the companies have all been in a very precarious position and, indeed, they still are.

 

I saw both BRB and NB in June and I think they used students in a lot of corps roles so that they could maintain cast bubbles.  

 

If the world was normal would they usually have expected some sort of payment?  I remember seeing Xander Parish, Alex Campbell, Joe Caley and James Barton with BRB during midscale when they were all still students - would they have been performing for the experience or would they have had short term contracts do you know?

 

I know NB have recently held auditions because I saw the notice on the website but I do not know how many dancers they were looking to contract.

Royal Ballet used to pay the upper school students they used to boost their corps, approx £60/show plus expenses and pointe shoes for the girls. This changed around 2015/16, their pay’ went to the school instead. Not hearsay, witnessed as had DC at school.  ENB cover stipend/travel/accommodation and pointe shoes for ‘My First’ productions and the graduate yr students used in company performances. Again, not hearsay.  This is common practice and nothing to do with Covid, yes it is great to put on CV but sadly rarely comes to anything 

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8 hours ago, Direction_of_your_dreams said:

Royal Ballet used to pay the upper school students they used to boost their corps, approx £60/show plus expenses and pointe shoes for the girls. This changed around 2015/16, their pay’ went to the school instead. Not hearsay, witnessed as had DC at school.  ENB cover stipend/travel/accommodation and pointe shoes for ‘My First’ productions and the graduate yr students used in company performances. Again, not hearsay.  This is common practice and nothing to do with Covid, yes it is great to put on CV but sadly rarely comes to anything 

Yes.  This is true - my daughter danced a lot for rb whilst a rbs student. The money was given to school and apparently used for helping students attend auditions. Although this was means tested - so my daughter earned a large percentage of the funds and was prevented from accessing the help !! The girls were also lent to brb for Albert hall and nutcracker season. The reason was supposedly to showcase the students and help with resume - didn’t help get them jobs. 

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The money went to the school NOT the students???? Outrageous!! So ticket buying public are yet again hood winked as to where their money is going....

Again I say, where is the transparent public auditing of schools & companies???

And why are people not shouting long & loud? Or is this a sign again of the long ingrained fear that anyone who speaks out will be cast out? Or rather.... never ever cast at all!!! 

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Just now, Peanut68 said:

The money went to the school NOT the students???? Outrageous!! So ticket buying public are yet again hood winked as to where their money is going....

Again I say, where is the transparent public auditing of schools & companies???

And why are people not shouting long & loud? Or is this a sign again of the long ingrained fear that anyone who speaks out will be cast out? Or rather.... never ever cast at all!!! 

Agree, Peanut68. An audition fund sounds like a wonderful idea that other schools could learn from, but..... surely not financed with other students' earnings??

 

Personally, I don't agree with the 'good enough' idea either. If they are performing corps de ballet roles in a professional production they should be paid, and if they weren't good enough they wouldn't be allowed on in the first place. After all, supernumeraries get paid and some of those filling in for corps roles will doing far more technical dancing than that. 

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On 08/08/2021 at 23:19, Jan McNulty said:

<snip>

 

As far as height requirements go don't most companies have them?  Over many years now of reading the Doing Dance forum I have seen many complaints that companies in Europe want taller dancers than most British dancers seem to be.  If you look at the makeup of NB (as I know you will have done) they have a number of male dancers who are on the shorter side of tall - realistically what would be the point of taking on a lady who was 6' tall.  Requirements surely vary with the need at the time.

 


Northern  has a  decent range of  height among the men of the company , where it has to be noted that  mr Nixon  did  have a bit of a thing for his 'little china dolls' ( be they European  - like Pippa Moore  and Antionette Brooks -Daw  or East Asian) ... and it's become more noticeable since Hannah Bateman and Vicky Goldsmith (Sibson) retired from performing  -  however   inthe  MacMillan tribute troiple bill  ( but unsure of whether any arm twistign went on  - there was a t least one performance of las mermanas whenre  Zenadia Yanowsky guested ... 

 

obviously   the new  AD will  have to work at least initially with existing  staffing and any appointments made this summer ... 

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14 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

The money went to the school NOT the students?

 

But it did go to the students: presumably as a bursary fund to help those students from families without significant resources, to help pay for the expenses of auditions etc. 

 

So there's another way of looking at it: the RBS is trying to enable those less well-off to attend expensive auditions (ie travel, audition videos etc).

 

It's often bemoaned in this forum that children of less well-off families lose out because they can't be subbed for audition travel etc. So the RBS is trying to level the playing field a bit - isn't that a good thing?

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57 minutes ago, Kate_N said:

 

But it did go to the students: presumably as a bursary fund to help those students from families without significant resources, to help pay for the expenses of auditions etc. 

 

So there's another way of looking at it: the RBS is trying to enable those less well-off to attend expensive auditions (ie travel, audition videos etc).

 

It's often bemoaned in this forum that children of less well-off families lose out because they can't be subbed for audition travel etc. So the RBS is trying to level the playing field a bit - isn't that a good thing?

Yes, the money did go to some students (if this is indeed what happened), but not to the students who had earned it.  I'm sure that none of us would be too impressed if our wages were deducted in their entirety at source and redistributed elsewhere?

 

Dancers - students or otherwise - have as much right to receive the wages they have earned as anyone else. 

 

I think that an audition fund is a wonderful idea that other schools should adopt, and the RBS should be applauded for that. But they could surely source the funds for this elsewhere? The school appears to benefit from a significant amount of philanthropy, as evidenced by the long list of sponsors on their website - far more than any of the other main vocational schools.

 

The wages earned by students are likely to be a drop in the ocean in comparison, and whilst the figures cited above may not sound like a lot of money in the bigger picture, they will mean a lot to the students who earned them. 

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1 hour ago, Pirouette said:

Yes, the money did go to some students (if this is indeed what happened), but not to the students who had earned it.  I'm sure that none of us would be too impressed if our wages were deducted in their entirety at source and redistributed elsewhere?

 

Dancers - students or otherwise - have as much right to receive the wages they have earned as anyone else. 

 

I think that an audition fund is a wonderful idea that other schools should adopt, and the RBS should be applauded for that. But they could surely source the funds for this elsewhere? The school appears to benefit from a significant amount of philanthropy, as evidenced by the long list of sponsors on their website - far more than any of the other main vocational schools.

 

The wages earned by students are likely to be a drop in the ocean in comparison, and whilst the figures cited above may not sound like a lot of money in the bigger picture, they will mean a lot to the students who earned them. 

 

Do children at non-vocational schools get paid when they do work experience?  I certainly didn't and more recently neither did my nieces.

 

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