Brexit, EU citizenship and job opportunities

[Cluelessmomma]

Following a discussion on a currently hidden thread about the possible impact of Brexit on job opportunities, I was wondering if anyone has any insight, opinion or experience on the merits of dual citizenship? My dd, about to enter her graduate year, is entitled to claim Irish citizenship. This is a fairly long and not inexpensive process, but  in the current climate, especially with the delays and uncertainties surrounding Brexit, would it be worth exploring? I would be especially interested to hear from people who have been through the company audition process this year.  Thank you in advance to anyone able to comment, whether that be on here or via direct message. I understand it might be an impossible question to answer! 

[alison]

Welcome to the forum, Cluelessmomma (love the name!).

 

All I can say is that in my field (which does perhaps have closer links to the EU than many others) I get the feeling that pretty much all the Brits who are able to (which doesn't include me, sadly) are taking dual citizenship, to keep their job/domicile/pension/retirement etc. prospects as broad as possible.

 

I trust we can discuss this without it becoming overly political  

[Cluelessmomma]

Thank you Alison for your welcome and your experience. Yes, please no politics - I don’t want to cause controversy with my first post! 😉

[RuthE]

This is nothing specifically to do with dance, just a couple of practical tips. I haven’t “used” my dual citizenship yet, but have been through the processes of claiming Irish citizenship through the Foreign Births Register and subsequently obtaining an Irish passport. Each half of the process took a full 4 months from application to issue of the document - and for the duration of the passport application process I was without my British passport as it was one of the supporting documents with my application. However I understand from another forum member that one can get around this by visiting the Irish Embassy Passport Office (Cromwell Road, London SW7) in person and getting them to certify and return your supporting documents while you wait.

[Cluelessmomma]

Many thanks Ruth that is really very helpful advice! I wonder if ‘citizenship pending’ would be something that she could put on her applications - the criteria is pretty straightforward so no issue of being rejected but the timescale looks very tight! 

[Yrosered]

Hi, I am in the process of doing this for my 15 year old daughter for the exact same reasons. She isn't even at upper school yet, let alone looking for a job, but I wanted her to have the security of EU membership before she applies to upper school and shuts down other career options, especially as she is keen on applying to Europe for vocational school. 

It took me 6 months to get my passport and we are currently 8 months into waiting for her nationalisation. Passport will be another 6 months so I'm glad we did this well in advance. It's long-winded and complicated and expensive - but I did keep my passport by sending in a notorised copy. It's also worth it to keep her career options open in and out of dance. Good luck!

[Pups_mum]

Not dance related from us either, but we are looking at my husband getting citizenship of his mother's country of birth, so that our children potentially could then do the same and have more options in the future. I think if there is a reasonable chance of them wanting to live and work in the EU in the future it is likely to make things a lot easier to have nationality of an EU country. 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

My daughter definately wants to work in the EU and she is very worried so if its a possibility for you, I'd say go for it.

[FlexyNexy]

My DD has 3 citizenships (one includes EU) just in case, so we are hoping that they will open her the doors when applying for companies worldwide. Definetly go for it!

[Loulou]

We are doing the same, my husband is Irish, so my dd although born here is automatically an Irish citizen, we currently have the passports form completed just waiting to be witnessed and sent, we think this is all that is needed along with my husbands birth certificate and our marriage certificate, in this scenario for dd’s Irish passport. My dd has just finished 1st year of us, so not looking for jobs yet, but I have looked at some adverts and they say, entitled to work in the EU, I’m presuming after Brexit this won’t apply to British Citizens , but I’m not sure, presumably it will require some sort of visa, suspect this will form part of any withdrawal agreement. 

[Colman]

23 minutes ago, Loulou said:

suspect this will form part of any withdrawal agreement. 

 

If it doesn’t - and it would have to be reciprocal - I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s trouble when a huge number of British citizens with dual citizenship try to take advantage of free movement. Especially in the case of a bad tempered no deal exit, which is apparently becoming government policy. 

[Cluelessmomma]

Many thanks to everyone for your really helpful replies - hopefully we can get stup  1 completed before the audition process gets fully underway! We really do appreciate people taking the time to share their experiences and insights - I truly am clueless and not just about ballet! 😉

[Kate_N]

5 hours ago, Loulou said:

entitled to work in the EU, I’m presuming after Brexit this won’t apply to British Citizens

 

I think that is very much what will be the case. If we're not EU citizens, we're not EU citizens. However, I know that in Germany, for example, they are planning to ease things as much as possible for UK citizens after Brexit. But I gather (from a family member who lives & works there) that will chiefly apply to those already resident in Germany - and Germany is probably extra-sensitive about welcoming migrants, given their 20th century history.

 

Under current UK employment law around citizenship, I'm told by my HR department when recruiting (not for a dance job, though!) that if we have two otherwise equal candidates, and one is an EU citizen and one is not, we give preference to the EU citizen (UK or non-UK EU). 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Kate_N

[Goldenlily17]

Dancers who aren’t fortunate enough to have dual citizenship are being refused contracts in ballet companies in the EU. I know of several examples. They have been offered contracts and then been told a short while later that visas can’t be obtained for them. This will have a devastating impact on their career prospects.
The EU market is critical, given the limited number of opportunities in the UK. So, even though this site is not supposed to be political, any UK citizen in this position who wants their DS or DD to have the possibility of a ballet career needs to get active and write to their MP, Equity and preferably the DCMS and to support the movement for visa waivers for cultural workers which is being led by the Incorporated Society of Musicians. If anyone want to contact me privately please do.

[Kate_N]

I would hope that anyone thinking of doing this did not vote for leaving the EU. It would be deeply hypocritical. 

[Peony]

Agree with Kate. 
many have lost so much. Is this worse for dancers than everyone else? Personally I’ve not only lost free movement for work but also the reciprocal recognition of my professional qualification (which is required to practice). This is what many people voted for

[Peanut68]

10 hours ago, Kate_N said:

I would hope that anyone thinking of doing this did not vote for leaving the EU. It would be deeply hypocritical. 

David Cameron has much to answer for.... bit what did he do? Run away to big cash rewards in the private sector!! HE is the hypocrite here!! 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Peanut68
Typo

[Kate_N]

Well, quite @Peanut68 !!

[Goldenlily17]

Answer to Peony’s question. It is worse for dancers because of the very limited number of opportunities in dance in the UK, especially in ballet. Opera singers and musicians who are starting out have the country house operas and festivals which don’t exist in ballet. It is easier for them to form chamber groups as they don’t need the space and bespoke flooring needed by dancers. Furthermore most of the choruses and orchestral players in these opera productions are British graduates from the UK’s leading music schools.
And yet, in ballet, the corps are overwhelmingly staffed by imported dancers, and so are contemporary dance companies. We are producing British dancers every year from our own leading internationally-renowned dance schools, most of whom have had to find jobs in European companies because they can’t get into British companies as a result of this obsession with the notion that there isn’t enough talent in the UK. Now they have lost that right to work and we have British dancers returning from cancelled contracts in the EU adding to their ranks. 
Frankly, it is insulting to the highly talented dancers who we do have, who worked for so many years for these corps jobs, and who have proved themselves by working in large company productions (for free) during their graduate years to have their talents ignored. So really the important thing is to lobby the DCMS through your MPs, tell them what is happening, ask them to support the removal of dancers from the Shortage Occupation List and write to Equity. The government is incredibly poorly informed about the reality of life and prospects for workers in this sector, and I know that their views have been formed by reports which were written pre-Brexit and pre-pandemic.

[Peony]

Your post was asking for visa waivers though, I think many people would like to be able to work abroad more easily, and are currently facing reduced career prospects and opportunities. I’m with you on the issue about employing dancers from abroad. We pay for MDS and then we don’t employ those people. Crazy

[Goldenlily17]

The problem is circular and two issues can’t be separated.  People need to work abroad because government policy favours the recruitment of overseas dancers which reduces opportunity at home.  If there was more protection for UK dancers - in fact only the protections which the majority of UK workers now enjoy and indeed most workers across the globe - the need for visa waivers to work in the EU would be less acute.
Attitudes need to change. It is ridiculous that the government is so fixed on the idea that there is insufficient talent in the UK to fill this fictitious ‘shortfall’. Everybody knows that jobs in all branches of the arts are oversubscribed. The dancers we already have in the UK, including settled EU citizens with the right to work here, could fill the small number of corps vacancies several times over. Just look at how ENB is deluged by freelance applicants for Christmas shows and the Albert Hall productions. Competition for these places from people with the right to work in the UK has never been fiercer. Importing soloists and principal dancers is quite a different matter. The entire argument surrounding recruitment and immigration in the arts must be re-thought.

[Peony]

 People need to work abroad because government policy favours the recruitment of overseas dancers which reduces opportunity at home
 

how so? 

[Kate_N]

Be careful what you wish for. The "British jobs for British people" idea is what fuelled the success of the Leave the EU campaign. 

[Out-the-other-side]

5 hours ago, Kate_N said:

Be careful what you wish for. The "British jobs for British people" idea is what fuelled the success of the Leave the EU campaign. 

As a very strong anti Brexiteer married to the son of an immigrant family this is most certainly not my standpoint! However, for ballet dancers EU jobs for EU citizens was undeniably a reality in the 2020-2021 audition season - either stated directly in job adverts or communicated in other ways - as someone has referenced either in this thread or the Radio 4 discussion one,  interest shown but made clear no help can be given with visa applications or being directly asked for passport status in email communication with companies/directors before material would be viewed. My DC experienced all of this first hand. 
Maybe this will be a short lived situation, something that will be ironed out in negotiations at some point in the foreseeable future, but in a time limited career it has rung the death knell for many young (predominantly female) careers before they even had chance to prove themselves. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by danceparent
Typo

[Jan McNulty]

1 hour ago, danceparent said:

As a very strong anti Brexiteer married to the son of an immigrant family this is most certainly not my standpoint! However, for ballet dancers EU jobs for EU citizens was undeniably a reality in the 2020-2021 audition season - either stated directly in job adverts or communicated in other ways - as someone has referenced either in this thread or the Radio 4 discussion one,  interest shown but made clear no help can be given with visa applications or being directly asked for passport status in email communication with companies/directors before material would be viewed. My DC experienced all of this first hand. 
Maybe this will be a short lived situation, something that will be ironed out in negotiations at some point in the foreseeable future, but in a time limited career it has rung the death knell for many young (predominantly female) careers before they even had chance to prove themselves. 

 

Could any of this possibly have been a side-effect of the pandemic?  At the moment we seem to be known as Plague Island!

 

I do hope everything settles down post-Brexit and dancers can once again apply with confidence for European companies.

[Goldenlily17]

On 30/07/2021 at 11:41, Kate_N said:

Be careful what you wish for. The "British jobs for British people" idea is what fuelled the success of the Leave the EU campaign. 

I certainly didn’t wish or vote for this. I was passionate for us to Remain because I could see how loss of freedom of movement would impact on dancers even before 2016. I’d like to see a world with open borders for cultural workers (including the USA) but given that we now have a Britain in which workers are supposed to be benefiting from ‘British jobs for British people’ it seems that dancers are excluded from that, and won’t benefit from protections. They only have the right to work in the UK whilst there are many exemptions  which permit international dancers to work here. We are in a lose, lose situation., and I think we have to fight for the reinstatement of some kind of level playing field.

[Peony]

The shortage list includes all nhs including managers, scientists,  care sector, various types of engineers, IT, graphic design, actuaries and many more. It’s not a short list! There will certainly be many jobs on there that aren’t actually particularly difficult to recruit to. I’m not sure that it’s as simple as they can just come over here and work with no restrictions though. 

[rowan]

The latest temporary short-term contracts advertised by ENB actually did say you needed to have the right to live and work in the UK and they were unable to sponsor visas.

[Pirouette]

1 hour ago, Peony said:

The shortage list includes all nhs including managers, scientists,  care sector, various types of engineers, IT, graphic design, actuaries and many more. It’s not a short list! There will certainly be many jobs on there that aren’t actually particularly difficult to recruit to. I’m not sure that it’s as simple as they can just come over here and work with no restrictions though. 

The NHS operates throughout the UK on a vast scale and has many roles it struggles to fill. As a previous poster said on the other post, in any one year there will only be around ten vacancies for male dancers and ten for female dancers available across the UK ballet companies.  Often it is even fewer than that.

 

The top ballet schools in the UK alone graduate enough dancers to fill those roles several times over.  To add to that, there will also be dancers moving from other companies, and experienced freelance dancers applying who have worked in several companies already.  

 

I really don't think this describes the kind of situation that the shortage list was created for. 

 

We see over and over again the suggestion that there should be fewer vocational schools producing fewer dancers.  Well, perhaps. But that argument renders the shortage point moot, doesn't it?

[Pirouette]

8 minutes ago, rowan said:

The latest temporary short-term contracts advertised by ENB actually did say you needed to have the right to live and work in the UK and they were unable to sponsor visas.

I believe that has always been the case for the Albert Hall contracts. The problem is that the freelance dancers who usually take those contracts rely on other short term contracts in Europe during the rest of the year to make this viable. Opportunities which have now been closed off to them. 

 

A short term contract once per year, whilst a wonderful opportunity in and of itself, is not sustainable on its own. Most dancers have bills to pay. 

[rowan]

Ah, had that always been the case? I didn’t know that. Yes, I agree, most ballet dancers surely want a full-time contract, not a temporary one where they are freelance. 

[Pirouette]

Just now, rowan said:

Ah, had that always been the case? I didn’t know that. Yes, I agree, most ballet dancers surely want a full-time contract, not a temporary one where they are freelance. 

Yes, past adverts have also been limited to those who already had the right to work in the UK (which included EU nationals as well whilst we were still members). I suspect the cost and bureaucracy of getting visas for so many dancers necessitates that. 

[Kate_N]

7 hours ago, Goldenlily17 said:

I’d like to see a world with open borders for cultural workers (including the USA) 

 

Totally agree with you, and I too was passionate about being European, part of the EU, and the freedom of movement that enabled. The loss for young people is just awful.

 

But we are where we are; it is what it is ... I think any action to be taken needs to accept that, first & foremost - and then think pragmatically about what can be done. 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Kate_N