Sim Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 19 hours ago, SwissBalletFan said: To be fair, this is a thread called Polunin/Kobborg etc etc... so if you don’t want to read about him either, you might not want to read the thread if it’s a boring topic to you, also given that it was started by a fan of Polunin. oh but wait... you want to hear about the performances and a review of the show? Oh and it makes you want to quit this forum? Or as in other threads stop being a moderator? How many ballet fans fans are driven away from this site due to such comments? To be fair, it is called balletforum.COM, and I can say if any of the international fans went on any of the Royal Ballet, ENB or UK based dancers and said ‘yawn’ it would be deleted in a second, and treated as unproductive (which would be fair). The Polunin thread was already closed down, and really due to non-Polunin fans criticizing the OTT admiration of a few members. Why not just let the fans of Polunin, chat among themselves and if you like you can choose not to read it? However to commment how bored you are about the topic...???? How much more bored must you be to open a thread about Polunin, read the comments about something that bores you, and then choose to comment? If you say you must do this as a part of your moderator job, then, I would say, it’s important to act as a moderator, which is very much appreciated, unproductive comments are not. Just a comment on civility... It’s always a nice check upon oneself to wonder if the thing you are about to post is something you would say in public, to a group of people, or fans of a certain dancer. I for one, would never walk around ROH and when overhearing a fan I know loves a certain dancer and always raving about them, lean in and say ‘YAWN’. Wouldnt it also be worse if you were an usher (person of authority) at the ROH, and did the same? I would walk on, and ignore it, which I think would be the civil thing to do. Also, as my own check. If I saw a person do this at the ROH I would say to them exactly what I have written in this post, and if it was an usher, I would ask for their manager and complain. Also and then if that manager didn’t take my comments seriously, then I would reconsider visiting again. EDITED to add: You might have felt compelled to read this thread as there are not so many new contributions on the many aspects of ballet - especially non UK. You and the owners of the forum might like to consider why that might be. I for one, have been turned off from starting threads or contributing for this exact behaviour. First of all, there are many comments on dance sites around the world that are allowed to stand that wouldn't be on this forum. Everyone has their own way of running things, and what is acceptable to one is not to another. "Why not let the fans of Polunin chat among themselves?" Because this is not a Polunin fan site. This is not a fan site full stop. Why is that? Because our members have said over and over again that they don't want the forum to be a fan site. This is indeed a COM....balletcoFORUM.com . It is not balletcoFANSITE.com. If Polunin fans (or any other dancers' fans) wish to create a fan site, that's great, but this isn't it. This is a forum. Forum means 'place of debate and discussion', as from ancient Greece and Rome. So if someone uses the forum to post up about a dancer or a piece of dance, whether positive or negative, they have to expect responses, either positive or negative. Your comparison with butting into a conversation at the ROH makes no sense. Of course people wouldn't do that; audience members chatting to each other during the interval at the ROH are having private conversations. People wouldn't just stick their heads in the circle and butt into a private talk. THIS is a public forum, so if someone posts something up, someone else will usually reply, and not always in agreement. Furthermore, you seem to have a chip on your shoulder about 'foreign' people commenting on UK dancers. Your comment is patronising and simply untrue. For your information, not all the moderators are British, and also how do you think we know if someone commenting on a dancer is foreign or not? Most people on here write under pseudonyms, so we often don't know where they are from. People have often said less than positive things about British dancers on this forum. As long as the comments are not personally insulting, we let them stand. There are many British people who say very negative things about British dancers; do you really think that we would weed out the 'foreign' comments from the British ones and let one stand but not the other? Finally, why do you sound so surprised that we want to hear about the Verona production? There is a big difference between wanting to hear about a production and not wanting to know about the personal lives of those involved. 13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 I have very little 'skin in this game' - I don't live in London and see the RB or performances at the ROH very seldom. I think that in a thread labelled "Polunin" we might expect fans and critics. And people express their views in different ways. My day job is teaching undergrads how to look at performance analytically - but I will also advise them to start with their gut feelings about a performance, and interrogate those. However, I wouldn't expect or require that level of analysis on an internet forum. Part of the joy of reading this site is reading different approaches to watching dance. I have my own views but they are framed by my long professional & technical training & practice in performance analysis and going to the theatre! So I always find that it's good for me to read less formal responses, and to remind myself of the sheer joy of watching any kind of performance. That moment when the lights go down (if they do) and I snuggle back into my seat (if I'm seated) and become immersed in a fictional world. I've done that all my life (since I was in utero in fact!) and the joy never ceases - even for a bad or mediocre performance. I hope we can all respect each others' ways of doing this, and sharing it here. I really hope no-one leaves because of this. I think there has been some intolerance of others' opinions on this thread - my advice to myself when I read something that I respond to in an intemperate way, is to ask myself "Why do I react so strongly?" It says as much about me as the post I'm reading. And then I hum to myself "Scroll on by" (to the tune of Burt Bacharach "Walk on By"). 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 18 minutes ago, Kate_N said: And then I hum to myself "Scroll on by" (to the tune of Burt Bacharach "Walk on By"). There's my ear-worm sorted for a while! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bridiem Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 hour ago, maryrosesatonapin said: If I posted a picture of a dancer I liked and someone wrote 'yawn' I would feel hurt. What might seem flippant to an 'outsider' can seem spiteful to the recipient of the jibe. I just feel that moderators, in particular, should find a pleasanter and politer way of expressing themselves and I had hoped for better from this forum. It's fine to disagree; but it's the manner of expression which jars. I agree with you that it would not normally be a polite or appropriate response. But it was made in the context of what even to me - a former great supporter of Polunin who still tries to give him the benefit of all doubts - feels like an endless stream of Polunin-propaganda. It's fine to enthuse about a dancer - especially after a performance one has seen - but it's another to constantly 'promote' them as if trying to persuade doubters, when it's clear that many posters here have seen him in the past or recently and have formed their own perfectly well-informed opinions of him (positive or negative or somewhere in between). So even I thought 'yawn', I'm afraid. But I do also look forward very much to hearing all opinions about the R&J in Verona, and I hope that the collaboration with Kobborg and Cojocaru brings out the (considerable) best in Polunin. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 50 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said: There's my ear-worm sorted for a while! Oh dear, sorry @bangorballetboy! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 I feel I should gently remind people that as Moderators, we don’t have the luxury of cherry picking which threads and posts to read, or scrolling past. People don’t always remember to use the “Report” function so we do have to be omnipresent in a way to ensure that the rules, which ensure the continued running of this forum, are adhered to. Moderators are unpaid volunteers with lives and jobs outside this Forum. We’re a small team of people who love Ballet and want to ensure that Bruce’s, and later, John’s wonderful and tireless work in giving us a place to air all our opinions endures. Because we are unpaid volunteers, we Moderators have the right to express our own opinions and thoughts. BBB’s thoughts of an (in my opinion) utterly pointless photo of Polunin being posted here were valid and he is entitled to air those thoughts. Typing “yawn” is not against forum rules. Incidentally, the forum only has a suffix of “.com” because of the location of IPS, the server hosts. Like some other people, I will be very interested to hear about this production. What I am not interested in is die-hard fans trying to change my opinion of Polunin the *man*. There is a big difference and that’s what we mean when we say we are not a fan site. Finally, I often think this but rarely say it; if anyone here doesn’t like the rules, Moderators having a voice, or the way this forum is run, do feel free to volunteer to join us on the Moderating team. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 17 minutes ago, Kate_N said: Oh dear, sorry @bangorballetboy! Well as ear worms go, it’s a good one! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 hour ago, bangorballetboy said: There's my ear-worm sorted for a while! I love a bit of Bacharach and David. It’s rather more gentle than my current earworm - “A message to you, Rudy” by The Specials! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 Well said everyone who has posted in support of the right to express a broad spectrum of differing views and opinions. This is the definition of a free and tolerant society. To anyone from overseas, a comment such as ‘yawn’ is, perhaps, a peculiarly British response and whilst Fiona E and others may feel that they are being unfairly pilloried I would certainly hope that this is not the case. There are others who post on the forum (they will know who they are and may not wish to be named) who have rallied against worse. I would hope that we can continue to express different views provided that these differences do not descend into personal attacks upon individual posters. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 47 minutes ago, Scheherezade said: To anyone from overseas, a comment such as ‘yawn’ is, perhaps, a peculiarly British response Be sure that also overseas we know the "yawns".😊 It has been made very popular by comics also in non English speaking Countries: the fact that the word is onomatopoeic and shorter than the Italian "sbadiglio" makes it much more effective. Personally, I have never had the slightest impression to be treated differently than Britons in this forum and find its editorial policy much more balanced that others I have experienced. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwissBalletFan Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 I’ve said my piece, I am not a Polunin fan, and I think my comment about ‘Yawn’ on RB,ROH, or ENB stands even if the person was also British. However I am too polite to test it. I don’t really have a chip on my shoulder about foreigners, I think the comment about Yawn stands even if the person was from the UK. I am not bored enough to give a long response, but of course reading a thread an inner yawn or three is expected, even at a dinner party, when that crosses into actually yawning or posting it, then it to me it becomes uncivil. In terms of anyone posting about Polunin’s performance, of Kobborg (it’s of course not all about Polunin) etc..how comfortable do you think a member will feel to detail their thoughts here? Without feeling each word will be picked over like bones on a carcass? It isn’t a fan site, but who decides how positive it can be before it becomes too much? About the chip on my shoulder...There once was a time where the British vernacular, humour, wit and manners were a shining beacon, sadly ever more the beacon dims like a welcome lighthouse on your shores. Not only on this forum, but in politics, news and with Brexit. I much prefer the wit Oscar Wilde over boorish Nigel Farage humour. For reference I’m not a fan of Polunin, I can’t comment much on his dance, and disagree very much with his social media posts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FLOSS Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 I have to say that I never cease to be surprised at how quick some dance fans; the fans of particular dancers and those who loathe the same dancers are to take offence when none is intended. Perhaps it is me, and I have to admit I have not been keeping tally, but we seem to have lost several interesting voices from this site over the years as a result of people taking things the wrong way. It is not always the people who take things the wrong way who choose to leave the site. No one has to like the dancers I admire nor are they compelled to share my tastes in choreographers. if I say that I find a particular dancer unmusical and over reliant on technique or that a particular choreographer relies too much on technology for his stagings or bores me with a limited dance vocabulary that is simply my opinion and you are free to agree or disagree with me as you wish. One thing I will pray in aid is that I do try to show my "working out" when I really dislike something or find a performance or a revival unsatisfactory. Now to the point. I am always grateful to those who take the time to tell us what is happening elsewhere in the world of dance whether they are writing about what is happening in Europe or further afield. It is always refreshing to read about new works and new choreographers even if the description suggests that the work might not be something I would travel vast distances to see or the choreographer is unlikely to be of interest to me. should any of his works be taken up here. It so happens that I should like to have some idea about what Kobborg's new ballet is like as a piece of choreography and a piece of theatre as it seems to me that it marks an important stage in his development as a choreographer.This will inevitably mean that someone will have tell us what the performances of the leading dancers were like .Those who have an aversion to Polunin being mentioned will simply have to look away. I just hope that comments posted on this thread have not deterred those who might be in a position to tell us about the new Romeo and Juliet. A final thought, perhaps it would have helped if Kobborg's name rather than Polunin's had appeared first at the head of this discussion as sacrilegious though it may seem to some I think that his involvement in this enterprise is of far greater interest and far less controversial than that of Polunin. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 3 hours ago, annamicro said: Personally, I have never had the slightest impression to be treated differently than Britons in this forum As someone who also writes about performances outside the UK, I can only echo this view. While discussions about these performances tend to be limited as - in all likelihood - not that many other forum members will have seen the same performance or run, I definitely sense that the interest in what is happening elsewhere is there. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 1 hour ago, FLOSS said: Those who have an aversion to Polunin being mentioned will simply have to look away. I am in complete agreement with almost all your words Floss, but there’s a difference between “mentioning” Polunin and posting Instagram photos of him with no top on to try and prove (completely unnecessarily) that he’s fit. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 And twice, at that 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scheherezade Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 4 hours ago, Duck said: I definitely sense that the interest in what is happening elsewhere is there. Absolutely, Duck, I only wish that I could afford to travel overseas more often to see these performances. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sim Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 48 minutes ago, Scheherezade said: Absolutely, Duck, I only wish that I could afford to travel overseas more often to see these performances. Me too. But since I can’t, I am so grateful to people like Duck, Angela, Naomi, Ivy Lin and others who take the trouble to post on this forum, often in a language that is not their mother tongue. My deepest thanks to them all. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamk Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 9 hours ago, SwissBalletFan said: About the chip on my shoulder...There once was a time where the British vernacular, humour, wit and manners were a shining beacon, sadly ever more the beacon dims like a welcome lighthouse on your shores. Not only on this forum, but in politics, news and with Brexit. I much prefer the wit Oscar Wilde over boorish Nigel Farage humour. This is a ballet lovers forum so why do you think it is an appropriate place to make offensive and upsetting comments like this ? It is nothing to do with ballet, is not in the spirit of this site and it spoils the positive and courteous atmosphere that exists here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, annamk said: offensive and upsetting This may be the lowest bar for offensive and upsetting I’ve ever seen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamk Posted August 13, 2019 Share Posted August 13, 2019 6 minutes ago, Colman said: This may be the lowest bar for offensive and upsetting I’ve ever seen. Really, thanks for that useful comment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duck Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 7 hours ago, Scheherezade said: Absolutely, Duck, I only wish that I could afford to travel overseas more often to see these performances. The same here ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 9 hours ago, Sim said: Me too. But since I can’t, I am so grateful to people like Duck, Angela, Naomi, Ivy Lin and others who take the trouble to post on this forum, often in a language that is not their mother tongue. My deepest thanks to them all. Seconded & thirded. I often read these reports, and determine to travel more - cheap weekend flights etc etc. But work & quotidian life take over ... So thank you for the reports from all around the world written here! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penelopesimpson Posted August 14, 2019 Share Posted August 14, 2019 (edited) 17 hours ago, Anna C said: I am in complete agreement with almost all your words Floss, but there’s a difference between “mentioning” Polunin and posting Instagram photos of him with no top on to try and prove (completely unnecessarily) that he’s fit. On a more light-hearted note, I thought this pic had the opposite effect and that Sergei looked anything but fit! But please, anybody who attends Verona, give us your verdict. I am pretty sure that everybody on this forum would be genuinely over the moon if it is reported that Mr. Polunin dances wonderfully. Edited August 14, 2019 by penelopesimpson 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaM Posted August 14, 2019 Author Share Posted August 14, 2019 On 13/08/2019 at 16:19, alison said: And twice, at that Apologies for the double posting, that was a technical fault possibly on my side, I do struggle with posting here from my iPhone and assume the site is more user-friendly on a PC. I did not mean to post the same picture twice and had not realised I had until you mentioned it here. If there is a way to delete the duplicate, please advise. The picture was meant to be evidence against the many (!) comments that Sergei Polunin does not train or rehearse and is no longer in good shape or good balletic form. I realise a topless photo wasn’t going to be to everyone’s taste. I am as keen as anyone to see perfect technique once again from Sergei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angela Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 On 12/08/2019 at 18:26, FionaE said: Of course his off-peak is better than most dancers’ peak. He is on a different artistic journey than the normal company-bound ballerino No, his off-peak is just as bad as any other dancer's off-peak, because you realise that he could do better. I've seen him outdanced by Osiel Gouneo in Spartacus, just because Gouneo had more stamina. Fiona, you really need to watch some other dancers - the Shklyarovs, Hallbergs, Lantratovs, Kims, Vogels and all the other great male dancers of the world. So many "normal company-bound ballerinos" are creating works by modern choreographers every season, and mostly by better choreographers than the ones Polunin choses. Polunin is not the first dancer to work freelance or to commision creations, it has been done since many years. 19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninamargaret Posted August 15, 2019 Share Posted August 15, 2019 I'd like to know what the actual production of R and J is like? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FionaM Posted August 15, 2019 Author Share Posted August 15, 2019 7 hours ago, Angela said: No, his off-peak is just as bad as any other dancer's off-peak, because you realise that he could do better. I've seen him outdanced by Osiel Gouneo in Spartacus, just because Gouneo had more stamina. Fiona, you really need to watch some other dancers - the Shklyarovs, Hallbergs, Lantratovs, Kims, Vogels and all the other great male dancers of the world. So many "normal company-bound ballerinos" are creating works by modern choreographers every season, and mostly by better choreographers than the ones Polunin choses. Polunin is not the first dancer to work freelance or to commision creations, it has been done since many years. I have seen some of those you suggest. Kimin Kim is awesome technically but doesn’t move me emotionally. Osiel Gouneo is a one trick pony. He can spin beautifully but is limited elsewhere. On the other hand, I saw Friedemann Vogel do the most beautiful Des Grieux in Manon with Daria Klimentova, it made me cry. Such control in the adagio solo! I would love to see his Mayerling. I saw David Hallberg with Osipova just this season in R&J and it was so disappointing as he was so unconnected with the role and of course Osipova was fully immersed. I was doubly disappointed as I’d missed seeing their Giselle when he pulled his Achilles. His technique wasn’t up to the pre-injury videos I’d seen. I have not seen Lantratov and Shkylarov live but I have watched videos of both. Maybe I’ll get to see them live one day. It’s a shame Lantratov is not in London for the Bolshoi tour - I’ve been told there may be a conflict between him and the management and that his recent injury isn’t the real reason he is not here. Beyond these names that you mention there are many wonderful male dancers around ... Wagman, Hernandez, Sissens, Sambe, Bracewell, Richardson, David Motta Soares, Tissi, .... even Figuerido ....and more. And actually I agree completely with you that it is disappointing to watch any dancer (Sergei included) in offpeak form when you know they can do better. I hope I am not going to be disappointed with Bolle/Nuñez Manon next season, as Bolle May be on the retirement decline. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 On 13/08/2019 at 15:57, FLOSS said: A final thought, perhaps it would have helped if Kobborg's name rather than Polunin's had appeared first at the head of this discussion as sacrilegious though it may seem to some I think that his involvement in this enterprise is of far greater interest and far less controversial than that of Polunin. Oh, well, for me it would always be "Cojocaru &..." 😂, but IMO Polunin, whatever one think of him, deserves to to have this R&J under his name. I don't think this project could ever had happened without Polunin: it's a huge investment of money and risky and he (or somebody for him) clearly is able to make money flow around him. If this is aimed to artistic quality and not to screaming hordes of fans is for sure a good thing. There is a massive press coverage, totally unusual in Italy, and journalists (maybe also TVs: I saw a Sky clip of rehearsals) were in invited to Belgrade for a press conference and open rehearsals. I don't think journalists travelled from Italy to Serbia on their budget. The show is mainly advertised (especially by general press) with "the bad boy" line, as it was his longish summer tour: Bolle was sold for ages to Italian audience as the greatest dancer of the world and that was believed. Maybe the organizers are hoping to move aldo the horde of Bolle crazy fans to Polunin, but they need an "easy" bait, sparkling and colourful, to do that: to hook that kind of audience quality is obviously not the option. Creating a popular figure is the key: I remember myself saying to Cojocaru, after one of her LaScala show, a few years ago, that she is not enough a Diva for this Country ...things are not changed, but I am happy she will be in Verona, with Kobborg and Polunin😊. I saw the poster with the cast a few days ago and Kobborg tweeted it yesterday: interesting costume design and a strong mark as Kobborg production in the scenic decoration. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Here two clips from Belgrade "press rehearsals". The first one is especially interesting, having Juliet "stealing" a scene 😊 https://www.danzaedanzaweb.com/articolo/1908/polunin-cojocaru-passione-e-talento-per-shakespeare 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 The clumsy and awkward (I am trying to be gentle) posts of Polunin are still a resource for people seeking for attention (homophoby is a problem in bigoted Italy): gay associations failed to boycott the show and ticket sale (the numbered seats seem sold out), but are planning to protest at time of gate opening on the day of the event https://www.veronasera.it/attualita/boicottaggio-protesta-polunin-arena-13-agosto-2019.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maryrosesatonapin Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 Thank you for the links, @annamicro. So it is mentioned that this Romeo and Juliet might be coming to the Royal Albert Hall.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annamicro Posted August 16, 2019 Share Posted August 16, 2019 1 minute ago, maryrosesatonapin said: Thank you for the links, @annamicro. So it is mentioned that this Romeo and Juliet might be coming to the Royal Albert Hall.... I saw it only there, but it's the most similar venue to Arena di Verona, so it would make sense 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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