Degree at 18 or diploma at 16

[oliviaT]

Hello again. 

 

I’ve previously asked for advice about options for my daughter who is currently in year 11. 

 

She’s now finished all of her auditions so we are in a better position to make a decision. 

 

She has: 

 

2 x level 6 diploma offers but one without funding. She likes them both but they are not where she  would ideally like to go. 

 

2 x level 4 offers (teaching) 

 

level 3 offer extended BTEC at a performing arts college with a good reputation. 

 

Ideally she would like to study dance / mt  (she’s not applying for classical ballet) at somewhere like bird, performers etc so is thinking of accepting the level 3 place for now. However it’s a risk when she already has a level 6 offer (I know she is worried about ‘wasting 2 years’) 

 

Does anyone know which of the main colleges offer a degree with full student finance for the course fees? I keep reading information about top up fees and it’s a bit confusing. Before we make a decision I want to be confident we can afford a degree course. 

 

Also interested to hear from anyone who has been in a similar position. 

 

Thank you x 

 

 

[Pointetoes]

You get student funding with a degree course. 

 

DD is just coming to the end of a Level 3 Extended Diploma. She has had offers for Diploma ( full scholarship) and degrees in a mixture of MT and Actor Musician. All at big named colleges. 

Personally I don’t think it is worth going anywhere just for the sake of it. You need to love the course and college, 3 years is a long time. We definitely haven’t seen the level 3 as a waste of two years in fact quite the opposite. If she had gone at 16 she would definitely be doing the wrong course. The last 2 years have opened her eyes to different courses other than classical ballet/ contemporary or MT which is the way she thought she would end up going. 

 

To answer your question : Bird, Urdang, GSA, Arts Ed, Performers, Italia Conti, London Studio Center  to name just all offer degree courses. 

[oliviaT]

Thank you. I’m glad to hear you don’t feel the 2 years have been wasted. Hopefully a good level 3 course will be beneficial (we hear lots of negative opinions but they tend to be about the local mainstream colleges rather than performing arts colleges). 

 

I think shes very worried that in 2 years she might not get the offers she wants and will regret turning down a diploma offer now. But like you say she needs to go somewhere she will be happy. 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Whilst broadly correct it’s not totally accurate to say that all degree courses (including some of the institutions named) get full student funding. 

 

The difference lies lies in how the degree is accredited. 

 

If a university or Conservatoire runs its own degree (eg Chichester,Trinity) then full student finance is available to cover tuition fees. 

 

If a university sub-contracts a degree course out to a college (eg. Hammond/Chester, Bird/Greenwich, GSA/Surrey) then again full student funding is available. 

 

However if a college runs its its own independent degree course which is merely accredited by an awarding institution (eg. Arts Ed) then it is classed as a private college and a maximum of £6,000 per annum funding for tuition fees is available from Student Finance (fees at Arts Ed are £15,360 per annum)

 

I’m in a caravan at the moment! But when im back at work I have a spreadsheet I created detailing exactly which degree courses offer what funding. It will be a little out of date as I created it in September (Urdang for example have made some changes since then) but it may be a starting point. 

 

[oliviaT]

29 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Whilst broadly correct it’s not totally accurate to say that all degree courses (including some of the institutions named) get full student funding. 

 

The difference lies lies in how the degree is accredited. 

 

If a university or Conservatoire runs its own degree (eg Chichester,Trinity) then full student finance is available to cover tuition fees. 

 

If a university sub-contracts a degree course out to a college (eg. Hammond/Chester, Bird/Greenwich, GSA/Surrey) then again full student funding is available. 

 

However if a college runs its its own independent degree course which is merely accredited by an awarding institution (eg. Arts Ed) then it is classed as a private college and a maximum of £6,000 per annum funding for tuition fees is available from Student Finance (fees at Arts Ed are £15,360 per annum)

 

I’m in a caravan at the moment! But when im back at work I have a spreadsheet I created detailing exactly which degree courses offer what funding. It will be a little out of date as I created it in September (Urdang for example have made some changes since then) but it may be a starting point. 

 

 

This is where I have been getting confused. And in which case it would be more sensible to apply for a level 6 with dada funding based on our personal circumstances. 

That would be very helpful if you can post it when you get back. Thanks very much 

[BlueLou]

If she wants to study dance / MT and not classical ballet there is no rush to go at 16 and I would definitely wait and try again to get an offer from one of her top choices before settling for second best. Some of the top MT colleges don’t even accept under 18s. If she starts the level 3 course she could still audition for a couple of her top choices next year (assuming that they take under 18s), and then quit the BTEC half way through if she gets in. 

[sarahw]

I know it may be a bit 'outing' but people may have knowledge about the courses she is accepted to which may help you...

[oliviaT]

13 hours ago, sarahw said:

I know it may be a bit 'outing' but people may have knowledge about the courses she is accepted to which may help you...

Thank you. I’ve discussed it with a couple of people but she wouldn’t like me going into too much detail publicly x 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I’ve messaged you as I know we discussed things before but there have obviously been updates since then. Depending where the Level 3 Btec course is going from what you say I reckon gut instinct would say go there as your daughter obviously doesn’t feel the Levrl 6 with funding course is quite the right place for her. It’s a real shame that the other place hasn’t got funding but we were in a similar situation with a couple of places. 

[Anna C]

Just a thought; are any of them local or are they boarding/independent living?  That might have an impact on your decision.  Unless she’s very mature and/or used to boarding, moving away at 16 is enough of a challenge without also making the leap academically from GCSEs to a Level 6 Diploma.  

 

There is definitely less urgency in MT dance than in classical ballet to be starting a Diploma or Degree at 16.  I know a lovely and very gifted performer who moved away at 16 to start a MT degree course (almost all her peers on the course were 18) but who found the combination of course and independent living too much.  She changed to a Foundation course instead, did A Levels and is now at an excellent MT college doing her degree.  

 

If the Level 3 course is well established and has a good record for students on to great MT/general dance courses at 18 then I’d be inclined to go that route. 

[balletbean]

I can see many have covered the differences between the two. My personal view and that of my DD past Principal who also works as a guest teacher at one of the top MT colleges. Stay at school and do A levels (if possible) when embarking on MT Degree training. You will come to rely on the skills obtained through A levels to support your Degree just like any Uni course. Unlike classical where 16 is not a choice. The colleges whilst offering and supporting the 16yr olds the industry prefer the older graduate. Boys in particular are more physically developed and can embark on more adventurous duet work which is a bonus on their cv. To graduate at 19 and work overseas can be daunting as well. 

Obviously it’s all down to personal choice but points worth considering. 

[oliviaT]

14 hours ago, Anna C said:

Just a thought; are any of them local or are they boarding/independent living?  That might have an impact on your decision.  Unless she’s very mature and/or used to boarding, moving away at 16 is enough of a challenge without also making the leap academically from GCSEs to a Level 6 Diploma.  

 

There is definitely less urgency in MT dance than in classical ballet to be starting a Diploma or Degree at 16.  I know a lovely and very gifted performer who moved away at 16 to start a MT degree course (almost all her peers on the course were 18) but who found the combination of course and independent living too much.  She changed to a Foundation course instead, did A Levels and is now at an excellent MT college doing her degree.  

 

If the Level 3 course is well established and has a good record for students on to great MT/general dance courses at 18 then I’d be inclined to go that route. 

 

She would probably board which of course is a concern for me but not so much for her! 

The level 3 course has a very good track record of students going on to degree level study at some excellent colleges which is reassuring for both of us. 

[balletbean]

On 23/04/2019 at 08:33, oliviaT said:

 

She would probably board which of course is a concern for me but not so much for her! 

The level 3 course has a very good track record of students going on to degree level study at some excellent colleges which is reassuring for both of us. 

Hi. Sorry I might be a tad late on this post. Just picking up on one point. Level  3 qualification (= to A levels) is the equivalent to RAD/ISTD Grade 6 and above. Just make sure that the DC isn’t accidentally duplicating the training.  It’s easily done. Dancing exams already carry UCAS points/credits which support access to some Uni degree courses. 

[oliviaT]

8 minutes ago, balletbean said:

Hi. Sorry I might be a tad late on this post. Just picking up on one point. Level  3 qualification (= to A levels) is the equivalent to RAD/ISTD Grade 6 and above. Just make sure that the DC isn’t accidentally duplicating the training.  It’s easily done. Dancing exams already carry UCAS points/credits which support access to some Uni degree courses. 

 

Hi, thanks for this.

 

My understanding is that a lot of universities don’t accept ucas points from dance exams? 

 

Are you aware of some that do? 

 

If she had 3 at grade 6 and 3 at intermediate that would be a lot of points if they are accepted! 

[Pas de Quatre]

I believe that these days the UCAS points from dance exams are only taken into consideration for dance courses.

[Fiz]

It was coming in as were LAMDA exam points when our youngest dd  was applying for university and they were not counted, much to our disappointment especially as my dd was applying for drama courses. 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

They are not accepted for several dance/MT degrees either. I know that Hammond don’t accept them for their degree, only A levels, Btec & International equivalents. 

 

A good vocational style Level 3 btec provider will use the qualification as a means to an end (providing full time training for 16-18 year olds). There are however many such courses thstvpretty much accept anyone and so Standards are not as high or different units are chosen. 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

1 hour ago, oliviaT said:

 

Hi, thanks for this.

 

My understanding is that a lot of universities don’t accept ucas points from dance exams? 

 

Are you aware of some that do? 

 

If she had 3 at grade 6 and 3 at intermediate that would be a lot of points if they are accepted! 

 

The highest grade obtained in each subject only would be counted. 

[2dancersmum]

Some universities do accept points from dance and drama exams but certainly not very many points. There is a space to fill them in in the ucas application. My DD had a couple of offers that specifically stated her dance exams would not count towards her points totals and a couple where a maximum of 'x points' could come from them. She did A levels and applied for a science degree - An overall points value was offered along with min A level grades  relevant subjects to the degree - eg biology was given a minimum grade she had to achieve to do the degree course but the 'x points' clause would have allowed her to drop a grade in a subject less relevant to her degree course and by including dance exams still meet the overall points value.  I cannot remember the points value but it was not a lot and certainly did not reflect the number of level 3 dance qualifications she had.

 

I would have thought that my DDs experience would be more usual - applying for a degree that had nothing to do with performing arts. Those I know who have done dance or drama at university have not had UCAS points accepted for dance/drama - probably because they expect most applicants to have taken exams in these subjects and even more so because there is normally an audition involved in the application procedure so they can judge an applicants relevant ability/talent for themselves.

 

For the record my DD is in her 1st year at university so this is based on last years experiences. Some of her dancing friends going onto degrees in fields totally unrelated to dance also had the clause about ' a max of x points can come from other level 3 qualifications' with their offers stating a level grades and overall points required.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

I’m finding similar in researching music courses for ds. Some state they will accept a Grade 8 theory or practical in lieu of A level music as they realise not all schools can offer A level music, but the majority of points have to come from traditional academic qualifications. 

[Anna C]

All dd’s conditional offers for Oxbridge/RG Unis were based on A Level grades, not points.  When applying there were limited spaces for recording extra points so she just recorded her two grade 8 music exams and (IIRC) her Grade 8 ballet and RAD Intermediate as there are no UCAS points for Advanced 1 or 2.

 

She did however mention on her Personal Statement her time in full-time training, her Advanced 1 result and that she was taking Advanced 2.  All the Unis looked favourably upon this and it was discussed at her Oxbridge interview so even though the UCAS points themselves weren’t counted, the dedication required and level of ballet training reached all contributed to the unis’ overall view of dd as a candidate.

 

So even if a student changes pathway from the performing arts to a different degree course, those Grade 8 and Vocational exams can help, albeit indirectly.  

 

 

[balletbean]

On 29/04/2019 at 18:33, oliviaT said:

 

Hi, thanks for this.

 

My understanding is that a lot of universities don’t accept ucas points from dance exams? 

 

Are you aware of some that do? 

 

If she had 3 at grade 6 and 3 at intermediate that would be a lot of points if they are accepted! 

Hi.

There are some individual courses that don’t specify exact subjects for entry at Uni  just Grades which = UCAS points. Only today a Yr12 pupil at the school I help out at told me that the course he’s applied for at UWE (University of Western England)  whilst requesting BCC also state a specific number of points. He’s taking AS photography but not taking a full A level in the subject purely to get the points and take pressure off on results day. Photography is irrelevant subject for the Double Degree course he’s planning on taking. I think it was Law/Business Management.  Ok it’s photography but the principal remains the same as Dance . They supplement the academic A levels not replacing them. Every little helps. As they say.  

 

Just look closely and read the small print for the prospectus. It’s amazing what you learn. 

Work smarter not harder as they say.   

[BlueLou]

My daughter (not the dancing one!) has a 120 point offer to study Primary Education starting this September. That equates to BBB. The offer specifies that at least 80 points must come from 2 A levels (i.e. BB or AC), but the other 40 points can come from anywhere. In effect this means that her third A level could drop to a D because she has 8 points from grade 6 Flute and 8 points from grade 6 Lambda Drama. If she had achieved a grade 6 in any dance discipline that would also have counted. 

It does very much depend on the Uni and course in question though. Most of the top academic universities still make 3 grade offers, although as Anna has said they still do look at the extra-curricular achievements and the tariff points must help them to judge their value - I’m guessing that your typical Oxford don would have little clue how much of an achievement a grade 6 in Ballet was if she didn’t have the tariff tables to give her some indication!

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Its really interesting because I'm in a cluster group of Year 12 parents online, most of whom are applying for universities and attending open days.  A couple of the parents have been attendding talks on appliations and making notes.  Some RG universities say thay are not interested in extra curricular AT ALL, advise you leave personal statements only for matters related to your subject wheras others (also RG)  have said they value extra curricular achievments highly.

[BlueLou]

I think the problem for universities when looking at extra-curricular is trying to determine it’s true worth, hence why many people believe that they barely even read personal statements sometimes. The person in charge of admissions may well have no clue what goes into getting a black belt in karate, or a particular gymnastics award, or whatever. That’s where I think the tariff tables could come in useful, even if they don’t make points based offers - it helps to quantify certain non-academic achievements. 

 

[2dancersmum]

It really does depend on the university, course applied for and A level subjects studied.  Only one of DDs offers was on points (and that one specified but not from dance qualifications). I spoke with DD and she reminded me the 'x' in the 'x' points could come from other qualifications was actually only 12 points maximum.

 

[Anna C]

I think if you put the Vocational exams in terms of their equivalent level on the qualifications framework it probably helps; for example Adv 1 is a Level 4 Certificate, Adv 2 is a Level 4 Diploma.  

 

As Pictures says; some Unis aren’t interested in extra curriculars and some are.  My dd mentioned hers briefly at the end of her Personal Statement which seemed to please everybody; the ones who might not have been interested had the choice to stop reading at that point. 

 

 

[SissonneDoublee]

Y13 form tutor here. When mentioning extra curricular activities, it is important to talk about them in terms of the transferable skills learnt. Such as resilience, time management, teamwork commitment etc. Dance ticks these boxes brilliantly. This goes down well everywhere, RG included. Good luck with applications, everyone!

[Legseleven]

We certainly saw that the transferable skills learned from extra-curricular activities (not the activities in themselves) can make a difference; a girl at DD’s dance school was told that her explanation of how her ballet (she was at RAD Advanced 1 level) had given her those skills at her interview for a top medical school had propelled her to the top of the admissions list. 

[Pups_mum]

Interesting discussion. I think if you are doing dance, drama, music etc exams ONLY as a means of gaining potential extra UCAS points/ something for the personal statement then its probably a waste of time. The effort required is very high for a limited and unpredictable gain.

However, whether it is acknowledged directly by universities or not I do think students with this kind of background have real advantages. The transferable skills that sometimes seem a bit formulaic when written on a personal statement are genuine.

Additionally, and so importantly, these activities provide students with an escape from the stresses of their course and potentially an almost instant new bunch of friends if they sign up for the dance club, orchestra or whatever during Fresher's Week. There is so much pressure on young people these days. I think it is crucial that we encourage them to enjoy their extra curricular activities for their intrinsic value rather than allowing them to become yet another hoop to jump through.  I think it should be completely acceptable for a student of an unrelated subject to say "I dance because it makes me happy". The world needs more happy people.

[balletbean]

On 01/05/2019 at 12:24, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Its really interesting because I'm in a cluster group of Year 12 parents online, most of whom are applying for universities and attending open days.  A couple of the parents have been attendding talks on appliations and making notes.  Some RG universities say thay are not interested in extra curricular AT ALL, advise you leave personal statements only for matters related to your subject wheras others (also RG)  have said they value extra curricular achievments highly.

It’s a sad indication that there are still some institutions that only look at academic results. If a student can attain good academic grades whilst balancing extra curriculum commitments (sport/dance/music) doesn’t that show a strong work ethic with resilience and time management. Compare that to a student who can only offer academic grades with no outside interest. It could show potential issues when they hit University and not being able maintain that level and also developing as an individual that an employer would be looking at after graduation. If that makes sense. 

As we all know there are important life skills learnt within the confines of a dance studio. And we aren’t just taking plies and fouettes.  Respect, dedication with a strong work ethic as well as boundless amount of stamina.  

[Picturesinthefirelight]

From what I gather (& this was based on a parent/6th former alk at a Cambridge open day) these universities want potential students to focus on what they call “supra curricular” so evidence of reading round the subject, attending workshops and lectures or listening to TED talks or podcasts  or getting involved in activities related to the subject they are applying for. 

 

 

[sarahw]

I imagine Oxbridge will select differently to most Unis... There are interesting/multi talented people there despite that 🤣🤣