Men now best at ballet, says Darcey Bussell

[taxi4ballet]

I have only just stumbled on this thread today (and can't read the article as the link doesn't work for me) but as someone who watched a large number of classes over the space of 15 years, and having had a dd go on to full-time vocational training, perhaps there is a point to be made here. I have seen with my own eyes, and had it relayed to be by dd, that the male students in training get much more in the way of attention, individual coaching and virtuosity training than the female students.

 

There seems to be the view that dancing girls are ten a penny, but the few boys are fawned over, supported and encouraged far more, right from the very beginning.

 

Female students in vocational training generally spend much more time on corps work (where they all have to be alike and individuality is frowned on), and only a select few are chosen for individual coaching in classical variations. Whereas the boys are coached in partner work, and usually matched with the same few favoured female students (so the others don't get a look-in), and the lads get a lot of opportunities to show their individuality and personality in solo variations.

 

So perhaps that is why female dancers are perceived to be falling behind their male couterparts.

[LinMM]

Are you saying that the girls at your ex  DD's Vocational School were not really offered training in pas de deux work....except for a few? 

I would have thought pas de deux work was an essential of the training ...at this level. 

Ive only just noticed this thread today. 

Im rather pleased that the men's standard has risen generally overall in recent years ....jumps are higher ...turns faster...and some lovely adage work from men who have very good extension etc. ( Not that any of these technicalities necessarily makes a dancer as such) 

But I don't think you can make a statement ( if indeed one was actual made) to say that "men are now best at ballet".....it's totally absurd! 

I don't see any evidence that females are falling behind the males ....you can't really directly compare anyway! 

I quite like the point we've reached where there are some roles which are meant for females....some roles are meant for males....and some roles can be for either male or female including in pas de deux work. 

I think I'd always like to see a female dancing the role of the Song Fairy in Sleeping Beauty and a male dancing the pirate roles in Corsaire.....to take two extremes!    But enjoy the luscious fluidity of both the male female dancing roles in a ballet like Monotones. 

 

 

 

[Springbourne3]

Bit of a strange and sweeping statement from Dame Darcey,  who has been President of the Royal Academy of Dance (RAD) since 2012 - a dance teaching organisation that promotes the highest standards of dance training and teacher training worldwide.  

[FionaM]

The whole idea that male dancers are outstripping female ones, breaks down when you look at the principal dancers of the RB.  I hope it is not a sweeping statement to note that ALL the female principals are highly versatile and superior in technique, dramatic, classic and contemporary roles.  Whereas ALL the male principals are limited in at least one of these, or by their height.  

 

Happy to be told otherwise.....

[capybara]

21 minutes ago, FionaE said:

 ALL the male principals are limited in at least one of these, or by their height.  

 .

.........or the higher ranking men are not afforded the same range of developmental opportunities.

This is potentially dangerous territory, FionaE 😉

[GailR]

As in most areas of life men and women are equal and different

 

[FionaM]

1 hour ago, capybara said:

 .

.........or the higher ranking men are not afforded the same range of developmental opportunities.

This is potentially dangerous territory, FionaE 😉

 

🤣🤣🤣

[taxi4ballet]

On 21/07/2019 at 15:24, LinMM said:

Are you saying that the girls at your ex  DD's Vocational School were not really offered training in pas de deux work....except for a few? 

I would have thought pas de deux work was an essential of the training ...at this level. 

Partner work is essential, yes. And in class they all take turns so everybody gets a go. The trouble is that there is usually (at least this was the situation in my dd's school) more women than men in a given year group. So when it comes to rehearsing for performances and training for classical pas-de-deux variations, the school will match particular pairs who suit one another together and they will be cast in those roles. This is commonplace in professional companies. Which means that since there are more females in the school, some of them will not be cast in pas-de deux roles so they get less pas-de-deux variation coaching than others. I hope that makes sense. 

[LinMM]

Yes it does Taxi. It's a shame they miss out on this experience though especially when looking for jobs down the line. I guess the only way you can support yourself in this position is by going privately for coaching etc.

[maryrosesatonapin]

The mention of pointe work for men reminds me of the Georgian National Ballet, where men are en pointe and women are not.  Those men could hardly be more masculine though, nor the women more feminine    One of the things I love about classical ballet is that the difference between the sexes is celebrated rather than neutralised.  Both genders are of great importance, and valued for those particular qualities they epitomise rather than trying to ape each other, as so often happens in our crass modern world.  There isn't a competition - working together is the key.

[taxi4ballet]

On 22/07/2019 at 21:53, LinMM said:

I guess the only way you can support yourself in this position is by going privately for coaching etc.

Full-time vocational schools don't usually allow that. 

[BeaverElliot]

On 24/07/2019 at 00:25, maryrosesatonapin said:

The mention of pointe work for men reminds me of the Georgian National Ballet, where men are en pointe and women are not.  Those men could hardly be more masculine though, nor the women more feminine    One of the things I love about classical ballet is that the difference between the sexes is celebrated rather than neutralised.  Both genders are of great importance, and valued for those particular qualities they epitomise rather than trying to ape each other, as so often happens in our crass modern world.  There isn't a competition - working together is the key.

 

From what I can tell, until relatively recently (i.e., so, going back to since C Medici and Louis Quartorze) gender expression and presentation, manners and customs in ballet have always tended towards an almost stylized binary, hetero duality, with a few notable, more recent exceptions (e.g. Troks, MB’s Male Swans) and older Mother Ginger role in Nut; and despite the preponderance of (openly and otherwise) gay men both on and off stage... with some danseurs presenting more femininely while others less so and more stereotypically masculine projecting. To me, Billy Elliot (the movie) followed by the eponymous hit musical challenged and made short shrift of those age old, tedious, formulaic and (to me at least) tiresome clichés.  The question for me then is: the best of >what?< in ballet, are male dance artists supposedly in the ascendency, according to the quoted interviewee’s estimation and perspective. Perhaps the interviewer-reporter could have done a more thorough job by qualifying the spoken account and digging into the underlying evidence base beneath the assertions of relative superiority claimed.

Unless of course the piece was intentionally trying to be provocative, cheeky and sensational.

Edited July 29, 2019 by BeaverElliot

[Lizbie1]

55 minutes ago, BeaverElliot said:

and despite the preponderance of (openly and otherwise) gay men both on and off stage...

 

I think that’s quite a big statement! It may have been the case in Western Europe and North America for much of the 20th century (and I really wouldn’t know either way), but - and again we’re working woth incomplete information - I don’t think it necessarily applies outside that time and place.

 

Certainly in Russia - long ballet’s most important market - no such assumptions are made.

[Jan McNulty]

1 hour ago, BeaverElliot said:

 

Unless of course the piece was intentionally trying to be provocative, cheeky and sensational.

 

I suspect that may have been the case.

[BeaverElliot]

On 29/07/2019 at 01:29, Lizbie1 said:

 

I think that’s quite a big statement! It may have been the case in Western Europe and North America for much of the 20th century (and I really wouldn’t know either way), but - and again we’re working woth incomplete information - I don’t think it necessarily applies outside that time and place.

 

Certainly in Russia - long ballet’s most important market - no such assumptions are made.

 

 

You have a point in that the concept of homosexuality only emerged relatively recently, in the last century or so.  

 

So there are no gay danseurs, teachers or choreographers in Russia. Alright. Stands to reason.

Edited July 31, 2019 by BeaverElliot

[Jan McNulty]

6 hours ago, BeaverElliot said:

 

 

You have a point in that the concept of homosexuality only emerged relatively recently, in the last century or so.  

 

So there are no gay danseurs, teachers or choreographers in Russia. Alright. Stands to reason.

 

I think you are being a bit over-simplistic here.  Anyway, what does it matter what anyone's orientation is?  I go to watch performances, not wonder about the personal lives of the dancers performing.

[Lizbie1]

9 hours ago, BeaverElliot said:

 

 

You have a point in that the concept of homosexuality only emerged relatively recently, in the last century or so.  

 

So there are no gay danseurs, teachers or choreographers in Russia. Alright. Stands to reason.

 

To the first point - I mentioned that we have very incomplete information. To the second, that's very far from what I said: there's a big difference between claiming there are "no gay dancers, teachers or choreographers" and questioning whether they amount to a majority.

[BeaverElliot]

On 29/07/2019 at 02:21, Jan McNulty said:

 

I suspect that may have been the case.

 

I was being facetious and agree with you 100%; so it was contrived simplicity on my part, yes.

 

This thread is touching upon gender expression in classical dance.  So maleness (however that is defined, presented and performed / executed / delivered / perceived / received) as in ‘men are ascendent’ (the thesis of interviewee according to the article author).

 

Today we better understand that effeminancy can be performative or not (gender expressive), and is not directly correlated to gender identity and expression or to sexual preference.  So the long held stereotypes, simplifications, and myths and misconceptions are gradually being debunked and dismantled.  Billy Elliot (the plot and the characters) did some of this myth busting so it is now a part of our popular culture (thank goodness). 

 

Ballet has begun to dabble in androgynous works, and maybe even non-binary choreography, particularly in modern ballet.  I have yet to hear of transgender ballet, but I there’s a lesbian queer company in the USA with a website.

 

The traditional men vs women binary that is inherent to ballet is so limited and limiting I think, male vs female variations, roles snd expectations by audiences.

Edited August 3, 2019 by BeaverElliot

[BeaverElliot]

On 01/08/2019 at 01:54, Lizbie1 said:

 

To the first point - I mentioned that we have very incomplete information. To the second, that's very far from what I said: there's a big difference between claiming there are "no gay dancers, teachers or choreographers" and questioning whether they amount to a majority.

 

Correction: I misused the word preponderance which I now see means 51% or more (i.e. a majority).  I mistakenly believed that it meant an inclination or tendency towards or pre-disposition for some phenomenon of the other.  Sorry for the foul up.  

 

My point was simply that despite the not rare participation and involvement of non-hetero humans, ballet outwardly for the most part tends to celebrate male-female split as a fixed duality.  I guess it is what some in the audience crave.  I cant see the point of asserting that males are better than females therefore.  So the interviewee’s assertions might have been presented out of context.  We just dont knoe at this point.

Edited August 3, 2019 by BeaverElliot

[Jan McNulty]

47 minutes ago, BeaverElliot said:

 

I was being facetious and agree with you 100%; so it was contrived simplicity on my part, yes.

 

This thread is touching upon gender expression in classical dance.  So maleness (however that is defined, presented and performed / executed / delivered / perceived / received) as in ‘men are ascendent’ (the thesis of interviewee according to the article author).

 

Today we better understand that effeminancy can be performative or not (gender expressive), and is not directly correlated to gender identity and expression or to sexual preference.  So the long held stereotypes, simplifications, and myths and misconceptions are gradually being debunked and dismantled.  Billy Elliot (the plot and the characters) did some of this myth busting so it is now a part of our popular culture (thank goodness). 

 

Ballet has begun to dabble in androgynous works, and maybe even non-binary choreography, particularly in modern ballet.  I have yet to hear of transgender ballet, but I there’s a lesbian queer company in the USA with a website.

 

The traditional men vs women binary that is inherent to ballet is so limited and limiting I think, male vs female variations, roles snd expectations by audiences.

 

I think you are being a bit sweeping here.  Bournonville, 200 years ago, may have had men and women but they tend to be equals in those ballets of his that still exist (La Sylphide, Napoli etc).

 

For such a slight article this thread has gone on way too long!