Jump to content

BBC News at 6...The RB's attempt to be more diverse


Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, Richard LH said:

Unless there is some evidence of racism  I don't think we should try to imagine it might be there, simply based on some notion of what others might be assuming. I see that as being perfectly fair and rational, and not complacent.

As to the second, the concept of exclusivity under discussion has been in connection with selection on ethnicity. Does a broad swathe of the public actually believe the RB selects on this basis? Surely not, but anyone who might think so just needs to be referred to relevant background details of the company's dancers.

To debate the dubious  idea that "ballet is elitist" because of the other sort of factors you mention, would be to change the subject under discussion here.

I don’t think that a broad swathe of the public believes that the RB selects on that basis but I do think that a broad swathe believe that ballet selects on that basis and if so, why not the RB? It happens in other fields and other institutions so why not ballet or the RB? This has been the experience of many in ballet so how can anyone be so sure the RB is immune? I am not claiming that it is but I certainly don’t agree that it is so readily apparent that it isn’t if one would only look at the background of the dancers.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 89
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

I don't really understand what the parameters are for 'mixed race.'  Miss Naghdi is being referred to as such, but her mother is Belgian and her father Iranian.  Like many Mediterraneans or Middle Eastern people, their skin is a bit dark, but I would have thought they are Caucasian.  Therefore I don't see how Miss Naghdi can be classified as 'mixed race'.  Does having dark skin tone immediately make one 'mixed race.'??   

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Jam Dancer said:

I don’t think that a broad swathe of the public believes that the RB selects on that basis but I do think that a broad swathe believe that ballet selects on that basis and if so, why not the RB? It happens in other fields and other institutions so why not ballet or the RB? This has been the experience of many in ballet so how can anyone be so sure the RB is immune? I am not claiming that it is but I certainly don’t agree that it is so readily apparent that it isn’t if one would only look at the background of the dancers.

 

 

Why on earth should it matter what colour the dancers are?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why on earth should it matter what colour the dancers are or where they come from?

 

and

 

Ditto the audience.  Ballet and opera are available to anybody who wants to go.  All this agonising and analysing and trying to substitute one audience for another is ridiculous.  I'm not a Friend.  I book my tickets the same way as anyone else can and I take pot luck.  

Edited by penelopesimpson
  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Also from the article quoted earlier Hayward tellingly says:

‘When I was little and watching ballet videos in my living room, all the dancers were white but I never thought, “That’s a white ballerina; I’m not, so I can’t do that.” It worries me that people are putting a label on me and that it will make dancers of colour think, “Is this a problem? Will it be a problem?” If I am an inspiration for little girls I want it to be because race was something I never noticed — and they shouldn’t notice either.’

Obsessing about some kind of "correct" racial mix in ballet, and suggesting it is currently wrong, could actually turn some youngsters away.

 

(sorry I can't seem to get the text all the same size...)

Edited by Richard LH
  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is it not possible though that Hayward's experience is linked to the fact that she is very light-skinned and easily 'passes' as white?  I agree with many posters here that the RB is more diverse than many critics have suggested, but (unlike at ENB) there are still no dark-skinned female dancers in the company and very few in the school.   That would be the issue  I would worry about for anyone taking a dark-skinned little girl to watch ballet at the ROH - there would be literally nobody who looked like her.    Accept the situation is slightly better for the men (although I do wish they would stop casting dark skinned dancers disproportionately frequently as the caterpillar in Alice....)

 

I remember Michaela DePrince's mother in the 'First Position' film having to dye the 'flesh-coloured' parts of her costume to match her skin.  Even pointe shoes are designed to 'match' white skin.   Ballet is still very much a world where the 'norm' or 'default' is pale skin.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm genuinely happy about Francesca Hayward's experience (which she's been clear about for some time), and that she's on record about it. However, I don't think we can dismiss the possibility that racism in ballet exists or is perceived to exist based on her testimony alone.

 

Without wanting to be controversial about it, I'd also point out that it's well documented that so-called light skinned mixed race people often have a different (i.e. more positive) experience than those with darker skin. Moreover, Hayward's background of being brought up by middle class white grandparents may have been a significant factor.

 

p.s. I feel a bit uncomfortable making an example of Hayward as I've never got the impression she enjoys discussing the subject.

Edited by Lizbie1
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't like the idea of 'passing as white.'  Hayward is Hayward.  A wonderful young dancer who seems to have much more important things to think about other than whether being mixed race is a problem.  It is all rubbish this stuff.  Nobody cares what colour, creed or religion a dancer is.  If there were no British dancers at all at RB I would think there must be something wrong at the School but it wouldn't affect my enjoyment of and support for the company one jot.

 

Does anybody ever tie themselves up in knots over who goes to a U2 concert or attends Old Trafford.  It's a simple transaction.  You book a ticket, pay your money and away you go.  Sorted.

Edited by penelopesimpson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, penelopesimpson said:

Why on earth should it matter what colour the dancers are or where they come from?

 

and

 

Ditto the audience.  Ballet and opera are available to anybody who wants to go.  All this agonising and analysing and trying to substitute one audience for another is ridiculous.  I'm not a Friend.  I book my tickets the same way as anyone else can and I take pot luck.  

 

I agree on both counts, but I'd like as wide an audience as possible to enjoy ballet as I do and know that they are welcome.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

...and who can blame her!  Isn't it enough that she's an incredible dancer ? Does she have to bare her soul and say how lucky she is that being relatively pale has meant she hasn't been subjected to racism?  'we can't discount the possibility that racism exists in ballet ' - Oh, so what are we going to do, get our bloodhounds out to track down something we don't even know is there?  And for what?  Bah!

Edited by penelopesimpson
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, Lizbie1 said:

 

I agree on both counts, but I'd like as wide an audience as possible to enjoy ballet as I do and know that they are welcome.

Can you give me any evidence at all that somebody whom you might consider outside of core audience is not welcome?  Aren't we searching for problems that don't exist?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ballet Black exists as a company to provide more dance role models for young black people, - they are a fantastic company I have often very much enjoyed watching.

It is interesting to read their website and ponder other peoples expereinces.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, penelopesimpson said:

Can you give me any evidence at all that somebody whom you might consider outside of core audience is not welcome?  Aren't we searching for problems that don't exist?

 

I haven't looked into it, but a glance around the audience at the ROH could be considered evidence. I think it's more complicated than that, obviously (age and social background play their part too).

 

I'd like to point out though, that my comments so far on this thread have been in reaction to people saying that racism and the perception of racism categorically *isn't* a problem in UK ballet and not me "searching" for a problem. If we're going to make this assertion, isn't the onus on us to provide evidence that it isn't, above and beyond the testimony of a couple of successful dancers?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that's right Lizbie1.

Noone runs a small dance company to get rich and in these days of very severe cuts in the arts, how hard it must be, so the Ballet Black people must think there is a real need for their existence. I am not sure that I as a white non-dancer, know better than they do.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry, you want us to spend time trying to prove something doesn't exist??????  Shall we dig up trees to see if they are growing?

 

I think I'd rather have a glass of champagne!

 

So, you look round at the audience and find it predominantly middle-class, white, not so-young people, and you conclude what?  That they are all guilty of racism and want to keep people out of their sanctum?   If you look round at an Arianna Grande concert and find most people below the age of eighteen, do you conclude that the youngsters are keeping the oldies out?  If you take a snapshot in a bingo hall, do you reach the conclusion that people who don't like bingo have been forced out by those that do?

 

Is it not time to use some common sense?  Some people like some things and others like other things.  Simple, really.  

Edited by penelopesimpson
  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The 'so what' in this case is that, at the current rate, the audiences for ballet and for classical music will wither and die without being replaced.   I feel like a positive youngster at the ROH, even more so at the RFH or the Wigmore and I am well into what most people would consider middle age.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

But where's the harm in encouraging people who would otherwise feel put off or intimidated? I know these people exist!

 

Forum members often talk about friends or colleagues who they've introduced to ballet: isn't what we're talking about essentially the same thing?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think we can say we know there is no problem.

How do we know there aren't people who feel unwelcome, sidelined, that it is 'not for them'? -amongst whom may be many who would get a lot out of it, and  with a lot to contribute.

I was very lucky to have music at home and to be taken to the ballet. But what if you never get any kind of exposure to really good music, say? More and more children do not and it is a great shame. This is a more general point, but I don't think it is just about personal choice. Of course there is always that and it should be respected. But for it really to be a choice rather than just  -well-  what you have been left with - you need some kind of chances and education.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Lindsay said:

The 'so what' in this case is that, at the current rate, the audiences for ballet and for classical music will wither and die without being replaced.   I feel like a positive youngster at the ROH, even more so at the RFH or the Wigmore and I am well into what most people would consider middle age.

Really?  Audiences are at an all-time high and when I look around there are plenty of young people attending.  Why are we looking for problems?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ROH has 'welcome' performances and schools performances, which are, correctly, not open to regular audiences. How do those who want to make regular performances more welcoming propose to do it? And is there any evidence that those attending welcome performances return for future performances?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, penelopesimpson said:

Really?  Audiences are at an all-time high and when I look around there are plenty of young people attending.  Why are we looking for problems?

 You must be going to different performances from me then.  I was there on Monday and I would say that the majority of the audience in the stalls was over 50.  Probably for Nutcracker there will be more youngsters and I have noticed that an all-McGregor programme attracts a somewhat different crowd but other ballet (and certainly opera) audiences skew elderly.

 

And you don’t have to take my word for it - the stats in section 4 of this article are interesting

https://www.artsprofessional.co.uk/magazine/article/audiences-classical-music

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Given that I wasn't a teenager by any means when I discovered ballet, I was so naive that I didn't realise ordinary people could actually buy tickets to go and watch ballet at the Royal Opera House.  Just writing that down makes it sound ludicrous.

 

When I discovered that I could buy tickets and my friend and I coincidentally went to see a performance of Mayerling in December 1984 we felt is was a friendly and welcoming theatre to go to.  I started off sitting in the amphitheatre.

 

A friend I met on the LFB Friends' trip to Russia in 1986 told me that it was not usual for women to wear trousers if they were sitting in the lower levels.  On one occasion - maybe around 1991 - I was going to a matinee on a day trip.  The weather was horrendous and I was dressed appropriately for the weather - wearing warm trousers.  I was "tutted" at by several people in the bar area that used to be at the back of the stalls.  That was the only occasion I was made to feel out of place but it didn't deter me from going.

 

I've often been critical of ROH in the past for a variety of reasons but never because it has felt like any exclusive club.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Jan McNulty said:

Given that I wasn't a teenager by any means when I discovered ballet, I was so naive that I didn't realise ordinary people could actually buy tickets to go and watch ballet at the Royal Opera House.  Just writing that down makes it sound ludicrous.

 

I don't think it does sound ludicrous, in fact, Jan. I think there is still a perception - obviously not universal, but not that unusual either - that the ROH isn't for 'ordinary' people and that tickets are all very expensive, etc. I often have to explain to people when I say that I go to ballet there that I DON'T buy very expensive tickets and that it is possible to go even if you're not rich. However if the ROH is going to raise the cheaper ticket prices to deter people like me, it will also deter the people to whom I say this. So much for helping 'diversity'.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, penelopesimpson said:

Why on earth should it matter what colour the dancers are?

it  doesn't seem to to at least one of the big  five   given we're had a  black Hitler  ( Der Fury)  and   a Black Mr Rochester from  them in recent years  and he's currently  swapping between a muskeeter  a Cardinal  and  Louis XIII depending which cast  ... 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Michaela dePrince has some interesting things to say about being a black ballet dancer in this article:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2015/feb/08/michaela-deprince-ballet-memoir-sierra-leone

 

She thinks the European companies are more accepting of black dancers than American companies are. I'm not sure if there are any statistics behind that or if it's just an impression based on a few companies in the USA and Europe. I think part of the problem is that the corps of a classical company is supposed to look as uniform as possible in the classical repertoire, and one or two really dark-skinned dancers in a sea of white will stand out. I remember reading an article where one black dancer (not sure if it was Ms dePrince) said that early on in her ballet life she was hoping to get the role of Clara and was told that the family wouldn't have had a black daughter so it was out of the question. Hopefully that attitude isn't common.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Seems that ballet may be a bit late in catching up! The RSC put on the Henry VI plays around 2002 and, shock and horror, cast a black actor as Henry. There was much consternation at the time. Since then it has become so normal to have 'black' actors playing 'white' parts that very few people would even comment on it. The big stumbling block is of course Othello,where generations of white actor can. no longer play the role.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, bridiem said:

 

I don't think it does sound ludicrous, in fact, Jan. I think there is still a perception - obviously not universal, but not that unusual either - that the ROH isn't for 'ordinary' people and that tickets are all very expensive, etc. I often have to explain to people when I say that I go to ballet there that I DON'T buy very expensive tickets and that it is possible to go even if you're not rich. However if the ROH is going to raise the cheaper ticket prices to deter people like me, it will also deter the people to whom I say this. So much for helping 'diversity'.

 

Once you actually get in the door, you realise that it is fine to wear normal clothes and that there are plenty of normal people there  (even the ballet fans!).

But if you have never been...you are not sure. The media do the most terrible job of perpetuating totally outworn ideas about what the ROH is like, which many of us have found maddening for years.

 

BUT recent events, revealing a nasty attitude at work behind the scenes, which looks at the ROH simply as a business whose aim is to 'maximise commercial potential', is not interested in the arts for themsleves, and  has no regard at all for an informed and loyal audience.etc,  is very alarming because it threatens to turn the clock back....to move away from being a theatre for all of us, ( working towards it anyway)  to becoming a more expensive and therefore exclusive reserve of the rich.

 

  • Like 10
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/10/2018 at 08:24, Saodan said:

I didn't see the news piece, but this article was posted on here a while ago: https://life.spectator.co.uk/2017/11/dancing-queens-meet-britains-next-great-ballerinas/

 

Hayward on racism in ballet: “it’s something I’ve never thought about… No one in the ballet world has ever made me aware of the colour of my skin — to be asked now makes it feel like we’ve taken a million steps back.”

By the way, this was not "Hayward on racism in ballet", Saodan - it was Hayward describing her answer to a pretty inane question she had been asked some time ago.

 One of the first things I was asked when I became a soloist was, “How does it feel to be a mixed-race dancer?” and I was taken aback because it’s something I’ve never thought about,’ .....then continuing as per your quote.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

17 hours ago, Lindsay said:

I was there on Monday and I would say that the majority of the audience in the stalls was over 50.

Due to cost, the stalls are not  likely to be where you would  find the majority of younger ballet lovers. Having said that, at various different performances I have seen quite a few people in the stalls who look well below the ripe old age of 50. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/10/2018 at 13:38, Sim said:

I don't really understand what the parameters are for 'mixed race.'  Miss Naghdi is being referred to as such, but her mother is Belgian and her father Iranian.  Like many Mediterraneans or Middle Eastern people, their skin is a bit dark, but I would have thought they are Caucasian.  Therefore I don't see how Miss Naghdi can be classified as 'mixed race'.  Does having dark skin tone immediately make one 'mixed race.'??   

 

Why is there a need to "classify" dancers by race and to interview them on TV? To illustrate diversity (yawn)?

For Miss Hayward growing up in the UK and training at the RBS it was never an issue. Why turning it into an issue now? The exceptional talent of Hayward and Naghdi is what matters, not their origin, ethnicity/race. They are both British: Naghdi was born in London and Hayward in Kenya.  As Sim rightly stated: what ARE the parameters of "mixed race"? 

Miss Hayward is African - Caucasian. 

Miss Naghdi's parents are of a different nationality. Her father is Persian and this is a nationality, not a race classification. 

 

(PS. Well, out of curiosity I looked it up: Persians are Aryans, of Indo-European origin, thus Miss Naghdi is (for those to whom this matters...) Aryan-Caucasian). 

 

Edited by Xandra Newman
add a PS
  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...