DD Driver Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 I note the latest instagram post from the RBS: 'We’re increasing our search for talent! We’ve announced that we will be holding more international auditions in 2018/19 as well as recruiting students at selected competitions. Competitions confirmed so far are @ibstage Grand Prix and the @prixdelausanne. Where will we see you? Visit our website to find out more about our 2018/19 opportunities.' July 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 So it does make you wonder, what is the purpose of White Lodge? 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DD Driver Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Pas de Quatre said: So it does make you wonder, what is the purpose of White Lodge? hmmm there are many confusing messages presented to parents. What it takes to be competitive at global comps is not necessarily the path followed at the vocational schools. Especially in the lower school age bracket. Many of these schools do not allow students to compete and do not aim to train them for that purpose. Maybe taking a slow boil approach rather than the more intense training offered elsewhere to get a student comp-ready by 14,15, 16 years old. The philosophy of elite schools selecting children at 11 and training them in their style over a long period of time e.g. through to 18yrs old....started in a time when there were less options for obtaining such high quality training elsewhere AND when there was less likelihood of students coming in from a global market. No easy answers! As an Australian parent the landscape is different again. It would be great if my dd was offered a place at The Australian Ballet School but that is just one pathway. Getting invited to the Prix de Lausanne or YAGP Finals is definitely a goal. It is notable that so few UK students attend the Prix. One reason that I have heard is that it clashes with the timing of their upper school auditions. Maybe more UK students will start to focus on this option in the coming years(?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Well this is a kick in the teeth for British training, isn't it? It appears they are only interested in applicants who have been intensively trained elsewhere in the world. They are going the same way as ENBS. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadielou Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Gob smacked that the RBS are proudly advertising this. How much more insecure must this make current RBS / UK students feel. Also saw that ENBS are increasing their international auditions, Mexico is a new venue. Makes me so sad, why is this allowed to happen. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 'English' National Ballet School - bit of a joke really. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legseleven Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Surely the top schools have always had a healthy mix of UK and international students? I can’t believe that White Lodge pupils would ever have thought that the Upper School would not have students coming from all over the world and from a wide range of backgrounds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArucariaBallerina Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Dancers from other countries are INCREDIBLE (I know a 'famous' young dancer from abroad that can do 7 flawless pirouettes on pointe who is only in the equivalent of English Year 6 (and in England, most girls aren't even en pointe yet at that age.) i don't think in England that the public understand how much ballet dancers need to train, but at the same time, I suppose a good solid education is good for those thousands who never become dancers. But I'm holding onto the hope that if you work really hard and love what you do, your dreams will come true 😊💕 I've decided not to audition for RBS or ENBS next year, though I would love to do a summer school there one day. There are plenty of other amazing quality ballet schools around! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, Legseleven said: Surely the top schools have always had a healthy mix of UK and international students? I can’t believe that White Lodge pupils would ever have thought that the Upper School would not have students coming from all over the world and from a wide range of backgrounds. I agree, the top schools will always be able to pick and choose from the best in the world, and rightly so. However... if POB and the Russian and American schools (and no doubt others) can fill themselves with homegrown students and rarely need to look elsewhere, how come we can't do the same? There's something very wrong with grass-roots training in this country. You only have to look on youtube to see youngsters of 12 or 13 doing full variations en pointe in international competitions (and doing them very well indeed). Here, most kids are only thinking about getting their first pair of pointe shoes at that age. How can we compete with that? The day my dd had her RBS upper school audition, guess where the AD was? Watching the audition? No - he was at the Prix de Lausanne instead. He couldn't even be bothered to turn up to auditions held at his own school. What does that tell you? Edited July 21, 2018 by taxi4ballet edited for spelling! 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadielou Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Ballet is now becoming more elitist than ever, very few ballet parents I know could go to the lengths needed to ready their child for some of these international competitions. Daily private coaching, costumes, travel, accommodation, audition photos, videos even the entrance fees in some cases are extreme. Therefore unfortunately many talented children are reliant on MDS awards / scholarships from the junior sections of the UK vocational schools and being very badly let down. How can you seriously expect year 7 and 8's that are literally doing single pirouettes from parallel and galops from the corner (RAD grade 1 level) to compete with those that are doing full blown Don Q solo's at the same age and doing them very well. These schools need to be brought to task, where are the teachers and training needed to allow these kids to perform along side the foreign talent on the world stage. If they are not able to train the younger children to the standard they themselves require then serious questions need to be answered. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 1 hour ago, ArucariaBallerina said: Dancers from other countries are INCREDIBLE (I know a 'famous' young dancer from abroad that can do 7 flawless pirouettes on pointe who is only in the equivalent of English Year 6 (and in England, most girls aren't even en pointe yet at that age.) i don't think in England that the public understand how much ballet dancers need to train, but at the same time, I suppose a good solid education is good for those thousands who never become dancers. But I'm holding onto the hope that if you work really hard and love what you do, your dreams will come true 😊💕 I've decided not to audition for RBS or ENBS next year, though I would love to do a summer school there one day. There are plenty of other amazing quality ballet schools around! 10 year olds shouldn't be en pointe for one very good reason and it's a clinical one. i.e. the bones of the foot are not sufficiently ossified at that age. The UK hasn't gone down the route that seems to be common in Australia of asking tweens to get a Medical and Physio report, but perhaps in part this is due to the fact it would be a chargeable activity for GPs and the UK public really doesn't get the contractural arrangements regarding general practice combined with the way in which the CDMT (ne CDET) accredited awarding bodies train their teachers ... Please put your Dunning-Kruger card down for a moment, as all you are doing is embarassing yourself and demonstrating where your knowledge is dangerously weak. from a dance point of view we've also seen the 'phenoms' come and go through injury, of the fact that their skill and talent runs out when they get to a company and become a little fish in a very big pond and suddenly they are in an environment where everyone is *that* good ... Edited July 21, 2018 by Nicola H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fiz Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Deep breaths, everyone. I am thinking of a young dancer who had multiple nationalities, parents with oodles of cash and involvement and did intensives everywhere as well as competitions. Although she was good and got a place at BNB for a year she then dropped out. They didn’t offer her a contract. Money isn’t the whole picture and neither is talent or hard work. Sometimes someone’s face doesn’t fit. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 1 hour ago, Sadielou said: Ballet is now becoming more elitist than ever, very few ballet parents I know could go to the lengths needed to ready their child for some of these international competitions. Daily private coaching, costumes, travel, accommodation, audition photos, videos even the entrance fees in some cases are extreme. Therefore unfortunately many talented children are reliant on MDS awards / scholarships from the junior sections of the UK vocational schools and being very badly let down. How can you seriously expect year 7 and 8's that are literally doing single pirouettes from parallel and galops from the corner (RAD grade 1 level) to compete with those that are doing full blown Don Q solo's at the same age and doing them very well. These schools need to be brought to task, where are the teachers and training needed to allow these kids to perform along side the foreign talent on the world stage. If they are not able to train the younger children to the standard they themselves require then serious questions need to be answered. and how many of these Phenoms are in companies and earning a living vs those who have trained properly and have technical competence not just the ability to reproduce a piece of choreography ... be interesting to see how many of the phenoms can 'sight read' a piece and what their standards of delivery would be like compared to the senior pupils in the conventional vocational training settings ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, Fiz said: Deep breaths, everyone. I am thinking of a young dancer who had multiple nationalities, parents with oodles of cash and involvement and did intensives everywhere as well as competitions. Although she was good and got a place at BNB for a year she then dropped out. They didn’t offer her a contract. Money isn’t the whole picture and neither is talent or hard work. Sometimes someone’s face doesn’t fit. being a 'phenom' might work for tennis , but it won;t produce dancers who can dance in a company and have a career performing a wide range of differing pieces, and start creating their own ... there is also a who extra level of stuff being put on the fact that WL and RBS Upper school share the RB branding ... meanwhile other organisations are not as explicitly linked , yet if you look at their links they are closer than the links between WL /RBS Upper school /RB company ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 The world (and YouTube in particular) is full of child "ballet prodigies". How many actually make it to the top as adults, though, rather than becoming sidelined by injury, health issues, growth problems and/or increasing lack of passion for the "art"? But I'd agree that for the RBS to be publicly casting its net that widely gives a distinctly negative impression of the school, and its lack of belief in its own students. I suppose most of the major schools are after the "super-talent" students so that they can polish them up and then claim that they are graduated of XXX Ballet School, though. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 8 minutes ago, alison said: The world (and YouTube in particular) is full of child "ballet prodigies". How many actually make it to the top as adults, though, rather than becoming sidelined by injury, health issues, growth problems and/or increasing lack of passion for the "art"? But I'd agree that for the RBS to be publicly casting its net that widely gives a distinctly negative impression of the school, and its lack of belief in its own students. I suppose most of the major schools are after the "super-talent" students so that they can polish them up and then claim that they are graduated of XXX Ballet School, though. that seems to be predicated on the assumption that there should be an automatic progression Lower school > Upper school > Company within the same silo ... rather than acknowledging that someone who has great potential at 11 and at that stage looks like thy might have the 'body type' and particularly balance of technician and artist for company A hasn't changed and developed by 16 to be someone and something different and more suited to a different Upper school or different company ... O'Hare, Rojo, Bintley (or his replacement) , Nixon, Hampson, Bourne, Pancho all look for different things in the dancers who they want for their company ... every dancer that they may consider will have a high level of technical skill and artistry ... but it;s do they fit with what the company does ? Edited July 21, 2018 by Nicola H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sadielou Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 You only need to look at the Youth American grand prix and Prix de Lausanne web sites to see how many (of these prodigies ) are currently working in companies. Only this week both sites published congratulations to alumni who have either been offered their first contracts or who have been promoted within their current companies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Just now, Sadielou said: You only need to look at the Youth American grand prix and Prix de Lausanne web sites to see how many (of these prodigies ) are currently working in companies. Only this week both sites published congratulations to alumni who have either been offered their first contracts or who have been promoted within their current companies. how many people offered first contracts , keep them ? how many of those promotions are substantive promotions rather than iterative ones , also any discussion of promotion and grades has to be considered in the face of a company's structure ( e.g. the number of dancers with Principal status at RB vs another of the big 5 companies who only ever has one Male and one female principal , but has 4 grades of Soloist as well as coryphees - even then has corps dancers dancing named roles in some pieces ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 How many of the current Principals and Soloists in British companies were vocationally trained solely in the UK from the age of 11? It seems to me that if upper schools are sourcing the majority of their students from international competitions, then they aren't finding what they are looking for here. 57 minutes ago, Nicola H said: 10 year olds shouldn't be en pointe for one very good reason and it's a clinical one. i.e. the bones of the foot are not sufficiently ossified at that age. The UK hasn't gone down the route that seems to be common in Australia of asking tweens to get a Medical and Physio report, but perhaps in part this is due to the fact it would be a chargeable activity for GPs and the UK public really doesn't get the contractural arrangements regarding general practice combined with the way in which the CDMT (ne CDET) accredited awarding bodies train their teachers ... Please put your Dunning-Kruger card down for a moment, as all you are doing is embarassing yourself and demonstrating where your knowledge is dangerously weak. from a dance point of view we've also seen the 'phenoms' come and go through injury, of the fact that their skill and talent runs out when they get to a company and become a little fish in a very big pond and suddenly they are in an environment where everyone is *that* good ... We know that pointework is not recommended until the child's feet are physically developed enough to take it. There are a huge number of posts on this forum saying exactly that. It appears, however, that everywhere else in the world ignores it. We know it isn't right, and it isn't good for their feet in the long term, but they are the students who are successful at upper school auditions here in the UK, and at 16-18 they are streets ahead of the local opposition. Some of them are practically company-ready and are only taken in into the 3rd (grad) year for a final polish so that the schools can boast about their graduate successes. Slow and steady training isn't the name of the game any more. It is obviously not what the upper schools are looking for. No idea what can be done about it though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) 23 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said: How many of the current Principals and Soloists in British companies were vocationally trained solely in the UK from the age of 11? Northern - and bearing in Mind that David Nixon isn't British by Birth and has no skin the UK vocational schools game ... Premier Dancers Pippa Moore - Hammond and the RBS Javier Torres - trained in Cuba so 1 - 1 Leading and First Soloists Hannah Bateman - didn't go to a vocational lower School , Upper School -Central Anoinette Brooks -Daw - RBS Lower and Upper schools Ashley Dixon - lower school not stated Upper School Central Mlindi Kulashe - Lower school in S Africa, Upper School at least partly ENBS Ayami Miyata - lower School in Japan, Upper School Académie de Danse Classique Princesse Grace (Monaco)Abigail Prudames - RBS Lower, Elmhurst Upper 4 -2 I make that 5 -3 to the British schools and note that of those 8 only 1 trained entirely outside Europe ... - Javier T , both Mlindi and Ayami had European upper School time (Ayami's biog suggests here entire upper school time was in Monaco) If anyone else feels like doing a similar analysis of other Big 5 comoanies, and other significant Uk companies ( e.g. New adventures, Ballet Cymru, Ballet Black etc etc ) that would be appreciated ... Edited July 21, 2018 by Nicola H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
All4dancers Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Nicola H said: Please put your Dunning-Kruger card down for a moment, as all you are doing is embarassing yourself and demonstrating where your knowledge is dangerously weak. I feel this comment was absolutely uncalled for! 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said: How many of the current Principals and Soloists in British companies were vocationally trained solely in the UK from the age of 11? 6 of the RB's current principals: Ball, Cuthbertson, Hayward, Morera, Naghdi and Watson. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArucariaBallerina Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Nicola H said: Please put your Dunning-Kruger card down for a moment, as all you are doing is embarassing yourself and demonstrating where your knowledge is dangerously weak. I'm not quite sure where this came from? All I've said is that dancers are more technically advanced at an earlier age abroad and thus go en pointe earlier? I do happen to know about dance anatomy, and I feel that this comment was really quite rude and hurtful towards me, a young girl who just loves to dance? 15 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 3 hours ago, Nicola H said: 10 year olds shouldn't be en pointe for one very good reason and it's a clinical one. i.e. the bones of the foot are not sufficiently ossified at that age. The UK hasn't gone down the route that seems to be common in Australia of asking tweens to get a Medical and Physio report, but perhaps in part this is due to the fact it would be a chargeable activity for GPs and the UK public really doesn't get the contractural arrangements regarding general practice combined with the way in which the CDMT (ne CDET) accredited awarding bodies train their teachers ... Please put your Dunning-Kruger card down for a moment, as all you are doing is embarassing yourself and demonstrating where your knowledge is dangerously weak. from a dance point of view we've also seen the 'phenoms' come and go through injury, of the fact that their skill and talent runs out when they get to a company and become a little fish in a very big pond and suddenly they are in an environment where everyone is *that* good ... Nicola, while I agree with your comments on pointework and ten year-olds, your second paragraph is rude and is uncalled for. Arucariaballerina is a young forum member and I would remind you that one of our forum rules is to be respectful of other posters. If you feel she or any other young person lacks knowledge, then why not inform them kindly instead of being so blunt? No human is born knowing everything; it's our job as adults to inform and educate young people, not to shame them. 17 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pas de Quatre Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Could someone please explain what a Dunning-Kruger card is? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Just now, Pas de Quatre said: Could someone please explain what a Dunning-Kruger card is? Wikipedia 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) Arucaria, just ignore ... we know you're serious and thoughtful about your training, and that your comments were made in good faith, as an observation you have every right to make. Sometimes people come across as rude on forums, when they don't mean to be, or aren't aware that they need to moderate their expression - it's partly about the bluntness of the written word with no sense of body language, gesture, facial expression, or tone of voice <grin> But can I agree with Fiz, and say "deep breaths" again? <big grin> This is just ONE Instagram post in a heightened context of social media <even bigger grin> I doubt that the RBS is basing its entire recruitment & selection policies on international competitions. But seriously, ballet has always been a highly international, mobile art form - the first "phenoms" on the London stage in the 1840s (such as Taglioni, Elsser, Cerruti) were all "foreigners" - and 'twas ever thus. The apparently quintessential English training of the RAD or the RBS is derived from a mix of Maestro Cecchetti and later Russian influences (especially after Ballet Russe dancers stayed in the various countries to which they toured). Personally, I'm very proud that this country is still seen as a world centre for dance and dance training - that our teachers, facilities, State investment in the arts and in arts education is at the very top of the world. And international mobility is a two-way thing - look at the experiences of members of this forum, with their own or their children's ability to move abroad to study at the highest level. Edited July 21, 2018 by Kate_N 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate_N Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, bangorballetboy said: Wikipedia Gosh! So that comment is far ruder than I imagined. Gosh. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 2 hours ago, taxi4ballet said: .....Some of them are practically company-ready and are only taken in into the 3rd (grad) year for a final polish so that the schools can boast about their graduate successes. This is an important point. I am sure this happens at other upper schools but not, I suspect, to the extent that it happens at RBS. I wonder what percentage of RBS 3rd Year grad students have had UK lower school training AND have been at RB Upper School for all three years? How many are assessed out after years 1 or 2? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 4 minutes ago, Kate_N said: Gosh! So that comment is far ruder than I imagined. Gosh. And even ruder when the post being responded to is not even written by someone old enough to be in US, let alone be an adult. It is an appalling remark to make to anybody and I hope that a full apology is made. 16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 5 minutes ago, Anna C said: How many are assessed out after years 1 or 2? Quite a few if you compare the end year lists of students. I think around half a dozen RB Upper School second years disappeared last year, albeit that one of those got a job with ENB. The RBS has 10 (i.e nearly half) of its 2018 graduates with apprenticeship contracts but still lays claim to be THE best in the world. I feel I want to add that I am growing increasingly worried about how posters on BCF are treating one another. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 (edited) Sadly there does seem to be a minority of posters, one in particular who seem to enjoy trying to mansplain everything in the most condescending manner & attempt to assert their superiority at every turn. I myself have been the victim of this on many occasions where a certain poster or posters have clearly not known what they are talking about but that hadn’t stopped them. All done according to the DALOG principal. Edited July 21, 2018 by Anna C Poster wished original word to be reinstated. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 49 minutes ago, Anna C said: This is an important point. I am sure this happens at other upper schools but not, I suspect, to the extent that it happens at RBS. I wonder what percentage of RBS 3rd Year grad students have had UK lower school training AND have been at RB Upper School for all three years? How many are assessed out after years 1 or 2? You should try looking at ENBS... my dd knew quite a lot of one year's intake there (not her cohort but another one); by the time graduation came around and she looked at the graduation photos she didn't recognise anybody. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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