Grace on Ice

[Dawnstar]

I am, as usual when watching ice skating, enjoying it but also finding it very frustrating. I feel that the relentless drive for technical elements, especially quads, has a very negative impact on the enjoyment of the routines as coherent pieces. So many of the men fell while attempting quads in the short programme. When watching the long pairs programmes this evening I started keeping count of how many pairs had at least one fall & I made it 10 out of 20. Imagine going to a ballet gala & half the pdds had someone fall over during them! The audience would be demanding their money back! In 2019 I saw 36 ballet performances & only saw 1 dancer fall over, and that was an accidental slip rather than failing at difficult choreography. If only the ice skaters could stick to choreography that is within their comfort zone then the performances would be so much more enjoyable to watch but a scoring system which rewards a failed quad over a successful triple ruins the artistry. You can't enjoy watching the performances, instead it's a tense "Will he/she/they fall over" every time a jump or throw is being signalled.

[Mary]

Yes I agree..almost every time, you start to get into a performance, it gets interrupted in this jarring way and the commentators cries of 'Oh that's it. ouch' etc. But I think we're watching it as performance art when in fact it is sport I suppose.

I really felt for the skaters this time with all the difficulties they have had to overcome. As Robin said- in a true under-statement- the world field was hardly a level playing field either : UK skaters as usual getting the worst of it with no facilities for months etc. as we seem unable to value and look after our talented people.

Despite all that I still enjoyed it...the more artistic couples still thrilled me,- the Hungarians, the Canadians and the Chinese. Some of the musical choices beggar belief don't they. I put the Americans who butchered Rachmaninov straight in at no 20 and that Ave Maria...well.. ...and of course we always have to have a James Bond theme...

 

Look forward to some more tomorrow.

I can't watch ballet online but this is less serious to me  and it's just fun really. Agree it would be even better if they would even out the technical standard and allow each couple to just perform.

 

Wasn't the medals ceremony bizarre.

[alison]

1 hour ago, Mary said:

I really felt for the skaters this time with all the difficulties they have had to overcome. As Robin said- in a true under-statement- the world field was hardly a level playing field either : UK skaters as usual getting the worst of it with no facilities for months etc. as we seem unable to value and look after our talented people.

 

 

I'm afraid that's nothing new: even Torvill and Dean had to decamp to Germany in order to be able to train properly, and that was in the 1980s

[Mary]

Yes I know....not new, just much worse this year!

 

[Dawnstar]

18 hours ago, Mary said:

Yes I agree..almost every time, you start to get into a performance, it gets interrupted in this jarring way and the commentators cries of 'Oh that's it. ouch' etc. But I think we're watching it as performance art when in fact it is sport I suppose.

I really felt for the skaters this time with all the difficulties they have had to overcome. As Robin said- in a true under-statement- the world field was hardly a level playing field either : UK skaters as usual getting the worst of it with no facilities for months etc. as we seem unable to value and look after our talented people.

Despite all that I still enjoyed it...the more artistic couples still thrilled me,- the Hungarians, the Canadians and the Chinese. Some of the musical choices beggar belief don't they. I put the Americans who butchered Rachmaninov straight in at no 20 and that Ave Maria...well.. ...and of course we always have to have a James Bond theme...

 

Look forward to some more tomorrow.

I can't watch ballet online but this is less serious to me  and it's just fun really. Agree it would be even better if they would even out the technical standard and allow each couple to just perform.

 

Wasn't the medals ceremony bizarre.

 

I did find myself wondering what it would be like watching ballet with comentary! The Eurosport commentator is quite discreet by commentary standards. He only remarks occasionally rather than talking constantly like some I've heard in the past.

 

I was happy with the Pairs result, as my favourite out of the top 3 couples did win. Usually I find I disagree with the judges & prefer the second or third placed to the winners! Yes, some of the music was pretty ghastly. The singer of the Ave Maria should be sued under the Trade Descriptions Act, and I don't think it's an appropriate piece of music to use anyway when the woman is inevitably going to be upside down showing her knickers!

 

No-one fell over in the Ice Dance Rhythm Dance earlier today. Hurrah! And shows that the falls are almost entirely due to over-ambitious jumps & throws.

[Dawnstar]

The girl who has just skated, Alexandra Trusova, exemplified what infuriates me about ice skating. 5 quads banged in & she fell on 2 of them, yet she's got a massive technical score, 20 marks more than the previous highest competitor, because of the marks for attempting the quads. The rest of the programme just felt like the bits in between the quads & I found her completely inexpressive.

ETA The next competitor has just done a very attractive & expressive programme, with no falls & only one visible error, but is 25 technical marks down because she doesn't have quads. Grrrrrrr.

Edited March 26, 2021 by Dawnstar

[Sim]

Give me Peggy Fleming any day.  

[Dawnstar]

Gold medallist: fell on quad

Silver medallist: fell on triple

Bronze medallist: fell on quads twice

 

If I was one of the girls who did a clean skate but can't do quads or triple combinations I think I'd quit in despair. And if I was running ice skating I'd revise the scores so a fall meant a mandatory removal of a significant number of points, not just one point!

 

@SimI'm afraid she was before my time. I started watching ice skating in the early 1990s, just in time to see Torvill & Dean be robbed at the 1994 Olympics!

Edited March 26, 2021 by Dawnstar

[Jeannette]

It is a sport. Next year Russia will likely field a completely different (younger) team, who are currently a year too young to compete - Valieva, Usacheva & Khromikh. It’s almost a factory system...a skating equivalent to the Vaganova Academy, with a specific short-term goal. Tiny body-mass index allows for tight revolutions and ethereal light quality. (The plastique that many admire in Russian ballerinas.)  The miracle is that “old gal” Tuktamysheva made the World team but only because next year’s wonder babes are too young for 2021 Worlds. Already the age limits were raised to 15.5 yrs old (10-15 yrs ago). Champions like Sonja Henie (early years) or Tara Lipinsky would’ve been too young to attend some of the Olympics and Worlds that they won, if today’s age limits had been in place.

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jeannette

[Jeannette]

2 hours ago, Sim said:

Give me Peggy Fleming any day.  

 

Peggy was my start, along with the Protopopovs in Pairs. (I’m sure that there was a Men’s event too but I just recall watching Ladies & Pairs.) In San Juan, Puerto Rico, dad brought home a little b&w TV set to watch the 1964 Winter Games from Innsbruck. It wasn’t live but that didn’t matter to a 7-yr-old kid. 

 

In those days, the island got American-TV shows flown daily from Miami to the two local stations. Shows arrived in “cans”! We saw the main shows of the three US networks but certainly our household watched CBS on a regular basis because of the cultural offerings...and to listen to spoken English. (People may be surprised to learn that Puerto Rico is not officially bilingual...less so now.)  I also had CBS to thank for regular bits of ballet, seen on the Sunday-night Ed Sullivan variety show.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jeannette

[Mary]

3 hours ago, Dawnstar said:

The girl who has just skated, Alexandra Trusova, exemplified what infuriates me about ice skating. 5 quads banged in & she fell on 2 of them, yet she's got a massive technical score, 20 marks more than the previous highest competitor, because of the marks for attempting the quads. The rest of the programme just felt like the bits in between the quads & I found her completely inexpressive.

ETA The next competitor has just done a very attractive & expressive programme, with no falls & only one visible error, but is 25 technical marks down because she doesn't have quads. Grrrrrrr.

Precisely what I was thinking. It really wasn't attractive to watch Trusova at all, (I am sure a nice and certainly a VERY talented girl ) as opposed to the Austrian's fluid and graceful performance= for example..

I wish they properly valued the 'cohesive' quality Robin Cousins keeps talking about- which is meant to define the event: that is, the way all the elements, the music, costume, choreography, style and the technical elements can all work together to make a satisfying whole -and that should be the no 1 concern! not just:  whizz round and round, bang, crash, wallop .. crash!- on your bum, jump up, whizz again etc. ..

 

So even the Swedish 'joker'- not at all to my taste stylistically-  seemed to me to score more highly than Trusova in doing what the event asks for.

 

Some of the music was just wince-makingly awful. It was particularly sad to see the Russians so out of  touch with their ballet heritage, and musical heritage.

 

I still enjoyed the evening though! (lying on the sofa with a bag of mini eggs  and a glass of wine, being self righteous....)

 

 

[Jeannette]

Small reminder that the finale of the Men’s event is tomorrow. While the heavy favorites are from Japan (Hanyu, Kagiyama) and the US (Chen), Russia’s Kolyada, in 4th place after the short program, is also contending for a medal, with his Nureyev-inspired long program (music of White Crow). The 24 men begin at my 6am est...so 10am in the UK/11am Sweden. Kolyada skates in the last group of medal contenders...around 9am my time...1pm UK. 

 

Skate order:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season2021/wc2021/SEG002.htm

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2021 by Jeannette

[LinMM]

I Usually follow skating regularly and have been following the build up to the Worlds for a while now so agree very much with your Thursday comment Dawnstar! 

Its been a bugbear of mine for some time now that the beauty of ice skating is being lost in all these Quad jumps and you get the feeling the skaters are just moving from one jump to the next with not much in between and are all a bit samey.   I wish the scoring would only allow for one quad and you don’t get more marks for a second!! Inspite of the jumps they do some of these young girls have no real sustained power so everything is cut short and so very unsatisfying to watch.  There’s a lot of arm waving and little use of the back into the movement which you see on really powerful skaters.  However often today their  careers are over by the time their bodies acquire this extra strength .. such a shame. 

I find that these days I really only like watching either ice dancing or gala programmes where you get more joy and individuality of performance when  the stress is off for all the jumps. 

But then I do forget I suppose that it is a sport! I didn’t realise a skater actually gets more points for a failed quad than a successful triple. That doesn’t seem to be right somehow. If they knew they would lose marks for a failed jump this might reserve the points for those who can do it more easily and the skaters wouldn’t attempt so many.    It’s like extensions in ballet some bodies are more suited to really high extensions and those that aren’t can  look rather ugly trying to do them. It’s better to go for a lower beautifully placed extension with good line and no body distortion in the end. 
There’s also a move in the women’s skating which has come in more recently where they spin holding their leg up in front of them and it just looks so ugly on most of them!! 
There seems to be a lot of back biting going on in the Russian ice training schools currently for some reason and a lot of the contestants look a bit downcast. Still it takes a lot of courage to go out and perform in these competitions and it’s not the skaters fault what is expected of them by the judges.  
 

 

[Jeannette]

The final flight of the Men’s competition was terrific! Actually, the last two groups were sublime. More satisfying than the Ladies’ programmes, in general. Highly recommended viewing for all lovers of figure skating & the movement arts! 

[Fiona]

4 hours ago, LinMM said:

I Usually follow skating regularly and have been following the build up to the Worlds for a while now so agree very much with your Thursday comment Dawnstar! 

Its been a bugbear of mine for some time now that the beauty of ice skating is being lost in all these Quad jumps and you get the feeling the skaters are just moving from one jump to the next with not much in between and are all a bit samey.   I wish the scoring would only allow for one quad and you don’t get more marks for a second!! Inspite of the jumps they do some of these young girls have no real sustained power so everything is cut short and so very unsatisfying to watch.  There’s a lot of arm waving and little use of the back into the movement which you see on really powerful skaters.  However often today their  careers are over by the time their bodies acquire this extra strength .. such a shame. 

I find that these days I really only like watching either ice dancing or gala programmes where you get more joy and individuality of performance when  the stress is off for all the jumps. 

But then I do forget I suppose that it is a sport! I didn’t realise a skater actually gets more points for a failed quad than a successful triple. That doesn’t seem to be right somehow. If they knew they would lose marks for a failed jump this might reserve the points for those who can do it more easily and the skaters wouldn’t attempt so many.    It’s like extensions in ballet some bodies are more suited to really high extensions and those that aren’t can  look rather ugly trying to do them. It’s better to go for a lower beautifully placed extension with good line and no body distortion in the end. 
There’s also a move in the women’s skating which has come in more recently where they spin holding their leg up in front of them and it just looks so ugly on most of them!! 
There seems to be a lot of back biting going on in the Russian ice training schools currently for some reason and a lot of the contestants look a bit downcast. Still it takes a lot of courage to go out and perform in these competitions and it’s not the skaters fault what is expected of them by the judges.  
 

 

I am amazed at how the number of rotations has increased through the years.  It used to be that a double jump for the Ladies was the maximum, now they're performing triples, and how long before they emulate the Men with quadruples?  Will the Men soon attempt a 5 rotation jump?  There must be a limit some day, surely?! 

[Mary]

1 hour ago, Jeannette said:

The final flight of the Men’s competition was terrific! Actually, the last two groups were sublime. More satisfying than the Ladies’ programmes, in general. Highly recommended viewing for all lovers of figure skating & the movement arts! 

I do so agree. it was a lot more artistic. It was also very pleasing to note the spirit of courtesy and sportsmanlike behaviour among the competitors. A real pleasure to watch.

 

[Dawnstar]

I agree that the Men's competition was decidedly better than the Ladies's. Chen's winning routine being free of any major faults made him a much more satisfactory winner compared to seeing someone win despite falling over.

 

5 hours ago, LinMM said:

There’s also a move in the women’s skating which has come in more recently where they spin holding their leg up in front of them and it just looks so ugly on most of them!!

 

I was going to ask if anyone else disliked this move. I agree that it looks very ugly. The spin with the leg up behind looks lovely so I wish they'd stick to that one.

 

13 minutes ago, Fiona said:

I am amazed at how the number of rotations has increased through the years.  It used to be that a double jump for the Ladies was the maximum, now they're performing triples, and how long before they emulate the Men with quadruples?  Will the Men soon attempt a 5 rotation jump?  There must be a limit some day, surely?! 

 

I imagine the quad Axel will have to become fairly standard before anyone tries to go on to quins. According to Wikipedia no-one has done a quad Axel in competition yet, though I suspect some skaters must be having a go at them in private!

[Mary]

Did you enjoy the ice dance Dawnstar? I really did, and the winners certainly had a lovely flowing quality.... but as usual found myself going back to youtube to watch the performances of days gone by before it all got quite so frantic....

 

[Dawnstar]

On the plus side, as no jumps were attempted no-one fell over! I can't say I found any of the "free" routines particularly moving or memorable though (I find "free" a misnomer as they all do the same elements). In fact I probably preferred the short programmes to the free ones, as many of the pairs used songs from musicals for their short programmes so the music was more to my tate than much of the music used for the free programmes. In fact across all 4 competitions I thought too many of the competitors skated to either pop songs or film soundtracks that I found very bland. Combined with so many competitors choosing costumes that were either all or predominently black, I found many of the routines seemed quite similar and even straight afterwards I couldn't remember one from another, let alone in hindsight. Unfortunately most those who chose music more to my liking (including Tosca x 2, Nutcracker, and Swan Lake) were lower-ranked skaters who didn't have the technical skills or artistry to necessarily make the most of their music. There were very few routines where the music, choregoraphy, technique & artistry all came together for a "wow" moment for me. The Pairs Gold Medalists' routine to Queen was probably the most memorable one for me. Among the routines at the Gala (again, too many skaters costumed in black skating to dull pop songs) two of the men, Canadian Keegan Messing doing a country & western routine and and Georgian Morisi Kvitelashvili doing "Friend Like Me" from Aladdin, were the standouts for me because their routines were amusing and full of personality. (Although they can't beat my favourite Gala routine, Javier Fernandez's "Aerobics Class". Anyone who's not seen it, look it up!)

[LinMM]

Yes he’s quite a character lol ... loved the costume change ....and he is very satisfying skater to watch as has a good powerful base. So he always looks so much in control. I’m trying to remember the name of the Russian male skater who was also very entertaining at galas a few years back now but he is in this vein. 

It’s usually more relaxing watching the men attempting jumps than some of the younger girls as the latter often look so precarious. 

 

[LinMM]

Here he is Vladimir Kotin 

[Dawnstar]

1 hour ago, LinMM said:

It’s usually more relaxing watching the men attempting jumps than some of the younger girls as the latter often look so precarious.

 

I agree many of the girls look very precarious but I think quite a few of the young men do too!

 

Per the video clip, not my taste in music but he's certainly entertaining, he's clearly not a teenager, and not even a triple by the looks of things, let alone a quad!

[Jeannette]

2 hours ago, LinMM said:

Here he is Vladimir Kotin 

 

Here is Kotin performing it as a “pas de deux” with World champ Debi Thomas (USA). Enjoy!

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R6VkZaJab2Q

[LinMM]

Yes in answer to your above post Dawnstar the level of jumping has progressed hugely since the 80’s. 
skating is one of those things though that is best seen live. Some friends of ours daughters ( they were unidentical twins) were in to skating for awhile so used to go to the Chelmsford rink and when you see the power of the older skaters it was exciting and impressive. This was back in the 90’s and one of them became the junior pair skating champion before giving it all up! 
 

[Dawnstar]

I've never seen competative skating live but back in the 90s we went to two of Torvill & Dean's shows. I can still see moments from them in my mind's eye.

[LinMM]

The very first skating show I went to was back in my 20’s when John Curry and his artistic skating company performed in London. That was a really beautiful show and so guess is why I enjoy the more artistic side of skating on the whole. 
I also saw Jane Torvill coaching two young professionals at Brighton Marina of all places when they had a mini ice rink there. 
You could book coaching slots with her so people watching were really close. This particular pair were pretty good together and again enjoyed that real power and speed you see round the ice in mature skaters. 

[Dawnstar]

12 hours ago, LinMM said:

That was a really beautiful show and so guess is why I enjoy the more artistic side of skating on the whole.

I think the reason I enjoy the more artistic side of skating is because I prioritise acting across all performance genres that I watch; i.e. in ballet I'd rather watch dancers who move me but don't have absolutely perfect technique than those that are technically perfect but less expressive, in opera I'd rather watch singers who are good actors even if their voices are not quite so amazing than singers with amazing voices but no acting ability.

[Jan McNulty]

Exactly Dawnstar - I couldn't agree more!

[Dawnstar]

Though I probably should qualify my previous post by saying that a reasonable amount of technical competancy is necessary as the skating/dancing/singing needs to not look obviously effortful for the performer in order to allow acting & expression to be the main focus for the audience. Hence when watching skaters trying to do quads you can't, or at least I can't, concentrate on enjoying the routine as I spend the whole time worrying that they will fall over, and sadly the worry is more often than not justified.

[alison]

Kamila Valieva - wow!

[Amelia]

It is a spell-binding performance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiE7pBS29vY

 

[Mary]

Yes. The minute she appeared I thought: one of those skaters..ballet's loss is skating's gain. V lovely.

It's great to have some figure skating to watch again!

[LinMM]

Yes saw a video of her performance yesterday as a friend had posted it! 
I really enjoyed her performance so graceful but very strong. She really finished her jumps off with confidence and looked fully in control with beautiful extensions. 
I’ve never seen her before but she has rare qualities.