Departing Parent Envy

[MummytoIzzy]

It’s amazing how determined and hardworking they are.  My daughter at such a young age currently is practicing un prompted and doing her stratches.  She had such a love of ballet and I do hope that continues.  As I say st the moment her teachers are great, encouraging snd supportive.

 

Saying that her mainstream school teacher is the opposite and it is horrible to see their confidence crushed

 

At least they know they have loving supportive parents alongside them  I’m glad things are going better.

[Guest]

Hello everyone, reading this as a parent of a child soon to start Y11 and auditions and upper school, or “other/normal” life, it’s very worrying. We have certainly learned in the past 4 years of vocational school from Y7 onwards that any parental interference leads to retribution on the child when your backs are turned. It has been infuriating and frustrating at times. To date it’s been manageable and the balance I would say is tipped towards the supportive, but I wouldn’t like it if it got worse as they get older. I also note that there is a reluctance on these posts to name the culprit schools - just “discussed on other posts”. Can anyone tell me which 16+ schools DO look after the whole welfare of the child? Is there a rule not to mention the ones that have poor reviews? My ds is full of passion and determination but is more likely to be middling and fodder- all his teachers use phrases like “he has a difficult body, no natural facilities” etc, so it’s all rather swimming against the tide. However he just wants to carry on until he can’t go any further. Does anyone recommend a school that doesn’t destroy this type of young adult? 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

The balletco forum rules state that you cannot make overly critical posts unless you put your full name, not a pseudonym and understandably parents are unwilling to identify themselves & their children so publicly. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

The balletco forum rules state that you cannot make overly critical posts unless you put your full name, not a pseudonym and understandably parents are unwilling to identify themselves & their children so publicly. 

Oh, I see. Thanks!

[Tulip]

Minoblade, I would highly recommend Central School of Ballet. If you achieve a place there, then they believe that everyone of their students are employable. 

[Guest]

On 30/06/2019 at 11:45, Tulip said:

Minoblade, I would highly recommend Central School of Ballet. If you achieve a place there, then they believe that everyone of their students are employable. 

 Thank you! Where my DS is at least 2 or 3 of the year 11s are going to Central next year.  It looks like they have moved to a great new place too. DS isn't interested in other forms of dance and if it isn't classical ballet, I think it will be acting/ performing/ academics.  So we want somewhere that will help him as much as possible but won't destroy him if he doesn't make it.  In other words, he won't be the favourite, if that's the type of place he ends up. I heard that ENB are desperate for money and boys, and he is going to the summer school, but even if he got a place (he's been told not to expect it), I worry that he would shrivel up. Would love to hear if anyone has any words of advice.  We were warned off Tring, so I am interested for any news (the new dance directors?) and Kings International looks interesting too 

[Vonrothbart]

I would totally agree with Tulip, regarding Central.

[Guest]

Yay!!! Thanks so much! The school he is at are quite positive about his chances for Central, so I will do some diligence. I love the idea of him being able to live at  home too. All of a sudden feeling more positive. This is a horrible rollercoaster. I’ve had sleepless nights wargaming all the options, decision trees, wondering what to do, how to be supportive, wondering if we are completely naive, or irresponsible allowing him to pursue this path, how to be the parent who can always have an answer, omg. #nightsstaringattheceiling should be my moniker. 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

I would suggest asking for further feedback about some of the comments such as ‘no natural facilities’. He must have some to be where he is now. The comment could mean numerous things from lack of turnout to lack of elevation. It is vague and your DS needs to know what to work on.

Kings is a good school but they do other genres as well as ballet. They also do singing. The directors are lovely and would probably offer your Ds an assessment, if requested.

I could also suggest an appraisal by Yuri at Bristol Russian. He is excellent with training boys/men.

Good luck.

[Guest]

Thank you! 

[Guest]

45 minutes ago, Mummy twinkle toes said:

appraisal by Yuri at Bristol Russian. He

WhAts Bristol Russian? (Sorry for asking) 

[Mummy twinkle toes]

Bristol Russian is a dance school based in Bristol. Yuri trained at the Bolshoi before dancing in Russia. His wife also danced in Russia. They offer private sessions and assessments. They are very friendly and you could explain about some of the comments your son has received and then ask for Yuri’s opinions. Lots of vocational students have had private lessons from them.

Their senior summer school is excellent and may still have spaces.

 

[Anna C]

Pictures is correct; we do have rules surrounding the discussion of schools and these can be found in our Acceptable Use Policy.  Highly critical posts must be made under one’s own name and this rule has been in force since the days of the original forum.  More recently we have had to ban all discussion of two particular Upper Schools (details are here and here).

 

Other than that, members are free to discuss any schools as long as they abide by our forum rules, in particular the section about schools:  https://www.balletcoforum.com/topic/18707-updated-forum-policy-for-discussion-of-vocational-schools/

 

 The Private Messaging system can also be useful.  

[HopelessMummy]

Reading this thread horrifies me. The lack of transparency and negative experiences by parents are very concerning. I had dealt with the tyranny of a dance school for years, not knowing any different. And you don't. And even if you do, however educated, however on the ball you are, for some reason you just live with it  Eventually we jumped ship and realised that a good dance school is one where the teacher works collaboratively with the parents and we are on an equal footing being honest and open with each other.

 

 

[Crystaltips]

Also it’s easy to get taken along for a ride. We parents are vulnerable too. We invest so much (emotionally) in our children’s dance training. When they are desperate to succeed and knowing that there is a scarcity of places  it’s hard to bat away an offer. When a school tells you what great pastoral care, training opportunities etc etc they have we want to believe them.However with the benefit of hindsight there are signs to look out for. What is the size of the 3rd year vs the 1st? If a school regularly advertises that ‘final year places are available’ that should tell you something. Scrutinise their social media postings. If the same few students constantly feature on Facebook or whatever, if it’s all about a few candidates for international competitions that should tell you something too. By which I mean that these types of post feature to the exclusion of everyone else. Schools showcase what they value. Ask about any kind of setting or grouping of students in operation. Again some schools do not divulge in advance that they practice this. Be suspicious of schools posting exam results where all the students get distinctions. It may be that they don’t post all the results. It’s equally likely that they don’t enter all their students for exams. Just don’t take anything at face value and don’t stop asking questions. Happy to answer any pm’s.

[newworksballetheatre]

On ‎30‎/‎06‎/‎2019 at 07:22, Minoblade said:

Hello everyone, reading this as a parent of a child soon to start Y11 and auditions and upper school, or “other/normal” life, it’s very worrying. We have certainly learned in the past 4 years of vocational school from Y7 onwards that any parental interference leads to retribution on the child when your backs are turned. It has been infuriating and frustrating at times. To date it’s been manageable and the balance I would say is tipped towards the supportive, but I wouldn’t like it if it got worse as they get older. I also note that there is a reluctance on these posts to name the culprit schools - just “discussed on other posts”. Can anyone tell me which 16+ schools DO look after the whole welfare of the child? Is there a rule not to mention the ones that have poor reviews? My ds is full of passion and determination but is more likely to be middling and fodder- all his teachers use phrases like “he has a difficult body, no natural facilities” etc, so it’s all rather swimming against the tide. However he just wants to carry on until he can’t go any further. Does anyone recommend a school that doesn’t destroy this type of young adult? 

Hi Minoblade,

 

Sorry for putting in my two cents too, but I am so sorry to hear that!

I really do appreciate how difficult it must be for both you are your son. I hate it when feed back consist of things like "a difficult body", to my mind the whole point of being a teacher is to help your pupils make the best of what they have and help them focus on what they can change rather than what they can't. It really doesn't make for the healthiest mental health and as dance is about 80% what is in your mind and only really 20% movement, I really think there has to be a change in how we coach and teach young people. No wonder so many dancers have low self esteem..  I really do know that there is a place for everyone in the dance world, but it is just a case of finding it and that can be really hard, so easier said than done!

 

I do run my own company and training programme, but where are you based? I might be able to recommend places and people . x

[MrsMoo2]

So sorry you guys have experienced all this, just wanted to give my two penneth worth! I’m an ex dancer, obviously retired now as in my 40’s. Retrained as a Mental Health Nurse currently working in CAMHS. 

Nothing, no career or otherwise should come before your child’s mental health. I have seen (and have personal experience) so, so, many children who have low self esteem and self worth and quite often it is attributable to a “dance teacher.” I’ve met girls who have been physically abused by dance teachers, told to “lose a little” when they are already skeletal. In my own classes years ago, we had a teacher who would hit you with a stick to correct your posture. Many times this leads to personality disorders, self harm and suicidal ideation as adults.

My own DS left his classes last year as he didn’t feel like he was wanted there, as much as I love that he loves to dance, I love that at 12 he was brave enough to move elsewhere, and ironically other doors have opened to him because of it.

Treasure your kids, they might think they know everything but trust your instinct. Never let them sacrifice their mental wellness for anything, it’s one of the most precious things they have, and if they’re dancing round their kitchen or the Royal Albert Hall, as long as they are happy, go with it...💕💕💕💕💕💕

[Guest]

20 hours ago, newworksballetheatre said:

Hi Minoblade,

 

Sorry for putting in my two cents too, but I am so sorry to hear that!

I really do appreciate how difficult it must be for both you are your son. I hate it when feed back consist of things like "a difficult body", to my mind the whole point of being a teacher is to help your pupils make the best of what they have and help them focus on what they can change rather than what they can't. It really doesn't make for the healthiest mental health and as dance is about 80% what is in your mind and only really 20% movement, I really think there has to be a change in how we coach and teach young people. No wonder so many dancers have low self esteem..  I really do know that there is a place for everyone in the dance world, but it is just a case of finding it and that can be really hard, so easier said than done!

 

I do run my own company and training programme, but where are you based? I might be able to recommend places and people . x

Thank you! I have DMd you. We are in London. Where are you? I love that-  20% movement and 80% in your head, if that’s true then he has so much hope. He has a very clear vision and commitment. It’s wonderful and inspirational for the rest of us watching in wonder from the (non ballet) wings. I mean, honestly, for the rest of us we see huge achievements, dedication, and discipline. His non ballet friends from primary school revere and applaud him, he gets so much from this externally. The two worlds are very different! 

[taxi4ballet]

On 30/06/2019 at 07:22, Minoblade said:

Hello everyone, reading this as a parent of a child soon to start Y11 and auditions and upper school, or “other/normal” life, it’s very worrying. We have certainly learned in the past 4 years of vocational school from Y7 onwards that any parental interference leads to retribution on the child when your backs are turned. It has been infuriating and frustrating at times. To date it’s been manageable and the balance I would say is tipped towards the supportive, but I wouldn’t like it if it got worse as they get older. I also note that there is a reluctance on these posts to name the culprit schools - just “discussed on other posts”. Can anyone tell me which 16+ schools DO look after the whole welfare of the child? Is there a rule not to mention the ones that have poor reviews? My ds is full of passion and determination but is more likely to be middling and fodder- all his teachers use phrases like “he has a difficult body, no natural facilities” etc, so it’s all rather swimming against the tide. However he just wants to carry on until he can’t go any further. Does anyone recommend a school that doesn’t destroy this type of young adult? 

It is worth bearing in mind that some people will have a positive experience of a vocational school, while others at the same place might have an entirely different experience altogether.

[Crystaltips]

13 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

It is worth bearing in mind that some people will have a positive experience of a vocational school, while others at the same place might have an entirely different experience altogether.

Absolutely true. And having a difficult experience does not always mean that you give up. I asked my dd if she could go back in time would she make the same choice and she said yes without hesitating. It’s just important to be aware of the enormous demands that dance training makes. Indeed many of the most successful students are the most stressed as they are under immense pressure to win in competitions . Just go in with your eyes open. And don’t disregard any feedback even if you don’t want to hear it. My dd has legs that are fractionally too short for ballet. I was simply furious when told this. But as she is choosing to go down the contemporary path it is no longer relevant and her ballet training has given her a great starting point.

[DancingtoDance]

On 08/06/2018 at 21:28, Crystaltips said:

"I wish so much that I could have talked to people like us, at the beginning of this journey and been open minded enough to believe how absolutely gruelling vocational training is and how damaging it can be to young minds and family relationships.

 

I wouldn’t have listened"

 

Right now I am really envying the parents whose dc have already made the tough decision to call time on dance. My dya (dance young adult) is just completing first year of vocational training and I have to say that I am more worried about the future than ever before. The experience of the school to date (don't wish to identify it but has been widely discussed in other posts) has been exceptionally disappointing.  Timetabling is done at very short notice (it changes each week) such that students often don't know until the last minute that they have free time, by which time it is too late to make plans. Lessons have been cancelled due to issues with e.g. utilities which surely could have been foreseen and avoided. On the other hand, lessons have gone ahead in an unlit studio with no music (piantist? nah) due to a powercut, a situation that would not be tolerated in a non vocational dance school. On my last  visit I was appalled at the dirtiness of the accommodation which is also extremely cramped (1 bathroom for 5 students and a kitchenette). In the time yda has been there, a 14-year love of ballet has been almost extinguished and there have been too many distressing phone calls about assessment results delivered bluntly and brutally. Any suggestions that I might contact the school are met with horror, and I suspect out of fear of retribution. It seems to me that the school is run entirely for the benefit of a favoured few with focus of resource and energy on what I would term vanity projects. Yet all are paying the same fees. I have several times assured yda that just walking away is an option that we would support, but they are adamant that they want to continue with the training to the end of the course. Given that only a very few of the students graduate into work, I am struggling to see what benefit this will deliver, but on the other hand I do understand that my young adult has to make the final choice. I suspect that my anxiety is being further heightened because yda's sibling is departing to an extremely prestigious university next academic year and the contrast could not be more marked. My yda, although reasonably able, has always hated anything academic and yes I also worry about the consequences of jumping out of the frying pan into an empty grate. If there is anyone out there who has ever felt as helpless and hopeless as this, what would you advise? Am I being an hysterical parent - or should I listen to my instincts?

I don't know that I have a lot of advice I can give, however I'd say that as someone who has never trained full time in dance but has taken dance recreationally, I would definitely not be happy with the music shortage, at least not on a long-term basis especially if anything at all could have been done about it.

 

I know that there might be some who disagree, but I am not comfortable with unreasonable favouritism in dance whether recreational or vocational - most parents or students are paying for dance training, and even if one has got a full scholarship for dance what is the point of a school giving a scholarship to a student if the teachers are just going to ignore the student in class? I know it is possible some teachers might require more of a student than others because they seem to be capable of doing more, but to me that is different to just completely ignoring a certain student just because they seem to not be as capable as some (also, I feel that anybody who has got into a vocational dance upper school must have quite a high proficency and aptitude in dance just to get in).

 

Personally I have a sibling who is more academic (ability-wise) than me, and in my opinion since your dancing teenager's sister is not her and may have abilities in different areas to your older child, it may be of limited value for your dancing child to base her goals on her sister (though I do believe one should try hard in everything they do including academics). If I was in your child's position, I would want to keep up with my academic schooling if feasible just to keep my options more open if nothing else, however in my opinion there are also meaningful (not necessarily high-paying) jobs which do not necessarily require the length of training need for dance that do not require a university degree.

 

I do not think cramped accommodation in educational settings is limited to vocational dance or art schools. If the accommodation is literally unsafe or unhygienic for your child though, then I definitely think it may be wise to find other accommodation.

 

Personally there was a time I wanted to eventually dance professionally, but looking back I obviously didn't want it enough or I'd have made an effort to get into more full-time dance training. The point am trying to make is for me personally, fortunately it really wasn't dance teachers' treatment of me (mostly quite positive) that put me off a dance career. There was one dance studio I went to where the classes I attended felt less 'soft' (I'm not saying this is wrong) but mostly not what would put me off training for a dance career.

 

While your post did not explicity mention abusive behaviour from teachers, a poster in this thread mentioned emotionally abusive behaviour from a teacher directed at the poster's child. I may be wrong, but unfortunately I think emotional abuse is far less likely to be recognised (both by parents/students and as a legal case) than physical or sexual abuse and possibly neglect. I have to wonder, 1. Why would teachers even choose to teach or to continue to teach if their intention is to abuse students, 2. Would teachers who have abused students have wanted their own teachers to abuse them, and 3. How did they even come up with the idea to mistreat students? Ignorance is not an excuse for abuse and it is even worse when teachers who know that what they are doing can damage a young person actually does that toa young person. As for attitudes about questionable behaviour "preparing students for the dance world" (that I have read for example on this forum), how does mistreating students prepare students for the dance world at all? Yes one of the vocational dance school's aims is to prepare students for a potential dance career, and to say that abusing students is preparing them to me is like saying children may possibly starve to near death in the future therefore we should let children starve to near dearh, or that children may possibly be deliberately physically injuted to the extent of needing hospitalisation therefore we should deliberately injured children to that extent. Does that make any sense at all? Of course it doesn't. Besides, I don't know that it is even true that abuse is the norm at dance companies (but I have no firsthand knowledge), and hypothetically even if it is, it absolutely doesn't have to be. I definitely do not think questionable teaching methods have been limited to dance unfortunately, and frankly I think that as long as humans have the capability of doing evil things there can be no 100% guarantee a student would definitely be safe in an educator's hands. Abuse is never excusable, and there is always time for dance teachers (at least those who have not been abusive) to either maintain or change their teaching methods for the good of their students. (Your post did not explicitly mention abuse so I don't know whether or not your child has been instructed responsibly, besides the favouritism, but I wanted to bring this up because I feel strongly that teachers have a duty to instruct students in a responsible manner).

 

Personally I do not think it is a given that a  student at a vocational dance school absolutely has to definitely want to dance in a professional dance company, though if there are only a few graduating students finding work in a professional dance company this probably points to the statistical unlikelihood of obtaining work in a dance company (unless as unlikely as it probably is, the students chose to turn down dance contracts).

 

So, I don't know whether or not your child should stay at the dance school and perhaps since I have limited knowledge about and no firsthand experience related to training at UK vocational dance schools, I have almost no idea which vocational dance school this is. The most troubling things to me in your post that stand out, besides the favouritism, are the often changing timetable and lack of music in dance class, which would make me reconsider attending even a recreational or non-vocational dance class on a regular basis.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 23, 2019 by DancingtoDance

[DancingtoDance]

"Crystaltips", I just read your original post again and realised the sibling's gender was not specified so it may be a brother or a sister, I should have said "sibling" instead, sincere apologies for the mistake.

Edited July 23, 2019 by DancingtoDance