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capybara

Has balletcoforum created 'sacred cows'?

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2 minutes ago, Balletfanp said:

 

 

The Principals who seem to have had the lion's share in live streams in recent years are McRae, Nunez, Cuthbertson, Osipova and Bonelli (this isn't the result of a scientific count, though!). Lamb has actually had relatively few (Winter's Tale recently, plus in the Bernstein Triple bill, and now Manon..........

 

........and last December's Nutcracker + next October's Mayerling.

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Sarah lamb has also danced Aurora and Juliet in cinema screenings in recent years.

 

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Lamb was also in Mayerling 2009 and has  been featured on compilation DVDs  in Les Patineurs, Elite Syncopations, Chroma, Limen, and Afternoon of a Faun.

As for younger principals, as far as I am aware, Takada, Hayward and Naghdi have only been featured on 1  DVD between them (Hayward as Clara in the Nutcracker - Hayward also featured, of course,  on the BBC Nutcracker documentary about her SPF debut).

Balletfanp given the above, and also what I felt as to the relative strengths of performances of Manon I have seen, yes  I do think, personally, that another cast would have been preferable for the filming, and I would like some greater variety in the future. I am just a bit surprised you felt that expressing an opinion like that  is a step too far, and mean spirited, when posting in response to the ROH's invitation to comment on their filmed production. Anyhoo...

Edited by Richard LH

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Well, the trouble is, as I indicated in the Manon thread, we do have the luxury of, if not hindsight, then at least not having to make decisions on casting for broadcasts umpteen months prior to the event!

 

(And wouldn't Takada have featured in the odd McGregor DVD, at least?)

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I have to say that I've often been to a cinema broadcast when the cast, or even the programme, has not been the one I would have chosen.  But I've really enjoyed every relayed performance enormously as it has helped me to see certain things (and certain people) in a different light.

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8 hours ago, aliceinwoolfland said:

It’s interesting that the more ‘senior’/ most filmed principals often don’t tend to be people’s favourites to watch.

 

Balletcoforum is, alas, a very small proportion of the ballet-going public and perhaps not fully representative. Another barometer is the speed, or otherwise, at which casts sell out for various productions. There are always many variables in play, of course (matinees are often the most popular) but, if one takes the current run of Manon as an example, it was noticeable that three casts sold less quickly than the others and that two of those had many seats remaining on performance day.

 

None of the following are 'sacred cows' for me, but the dancers I would most like to see in cinema broadcasts (in alphabetical order) are: Ball, Clarke, Hayward, Muntagirov, Naghdi and Takada. I have said before that this whole business must represent a big conundrum for Kevin O'Hare because, cinema relays apart, if younger dancers are to be afforded opportunities, there may be a need to 'rest' those who have been cast in roles for many years. 

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9 hours ago, alison said:

(And wouldn't Takada have featured in the odd McGregor DVD, at least?)

Early in her career she appears in Limen (2009) in one the compliations  - I don't know the role. 

Similarly she appears in "Monotones" on an Ashton Celebration DVD which I haven't seen either.

She also appears as Zulme on the 2014 Giselle DVD.

It is really he lack of recorded appearances, as Principals,  of these younger dancers that I have tried to draw attention to....probably now to the point of tedium ! 

Edited by Richard LH

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Thanks Capybara.  I would just add that if fit I would be very keen for Laura Morera to be given some cinema broadcasts.  Her Anastasia and Mary Vetsera were truly memorable.

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15 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Thanks Capybara.  I would just add that if fit I would be very keen for Laura Morera to be given some cinema broadcasts.  Her Anastasia and Mary Vetsera were truly memorable.

As was her Manon.

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27 minutes ago, JohnS said:

Thanks Capybara.  I would just add that if fit I would be very keen for Laura Morera to be given some cinema broadcasts.  Her Anastasia and Mary Vetsera were truly memorable.

 

Yes, of course, JohnS,  I wish that the forthcoming cinema broadcast were to be Morera/Bonelli. 

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11 minutes ago, capybara said:

 

Yes, of course, JohnS,  I wish that the forthcoming cinema broadcast were to be Morera/Bonelli. 

 

We are, at least, scheduled to get Morera's Larisch in the cinema broadcast

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7 hours ago, JohnS said:

Thanks Capybara.  I would just add that if fit I would be very keen for Laura Morera to be given some cinema broadcasts.  Her Anastasia and Mary Vetsera were truly memorable.

I haven't seen her as Manon and was really looking forward to seeing her this time. So sorry that she has been unwell.

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On ‎05‎/‎05‎/‎2018 at 16:14, FLOSS said:

I have to say that I am more than a little perplexed by the suggestion that there are posters who go out of their way to denigrate individual dancers in order to build up another dancer. If they have done this I have not noticed it.

 

Amazing!!  You were denigrating Matthew Golding and Salenko from day one.

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One of the downsides of contemplating sharing any thoughts on this forum are the strong reactions when any poster mentions a favorite dancer of other members (sacred cow) in anything but the most glowing of terms.

 

However, since reading this thread, I love the term sacred cow, and when I read any of the many gushing fan posts, I now automatically ‘moo’ in my mind.

 

 

Edited by SwissBalletFan
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1 hour ago, SwissBalletFan said:

However, since reading this thread, I love the term sacred cow, and when I read any of the many gushing fan posts, I now automatically ‘moo’ in my mind.

 

Ah yes, someone Swiss would be likely to have a more serious relationship with cows than the rest of us (except Indians perhaps?) 😊

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18 hours ago, SwissBalletFan said:

One of the downsides of contemplating sharing any thoughts on this forum are the strong reactions when any poster mentions a favorite dancer of other members (sacred cow) in anything but the most glowing of terms.

 

However, since reading this thread, I love the term sacred cow, and when I read any of the many gushing fan posts, I now automatically ‘moo’ in my mind.

 

 

'Moo' to you!

 

 

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19 hours ago, SwissBalletFan said:

One of the downsides of contemplating sharing any thoughts on this forum are the strong reactions when any poster mentions a favorite dancer of other members (sacred cow) in anything but the most glowing of terms.

 

However, since reading this thread, I love the term sacred cow, and when I read any of the many gushing fan posts, I now automatically ‘moo’ in my mind.

 

 

 

I am frankly really tired of this Post, we had a similar Post not so long ago in "Snowflake - No not another Nutcracker review...". How tiresome did that become! I stopped reading at some point. It created such an animosity so much so that several knowledgable posters stop posting and commenting all together.

 

It feels as if posters are regularly told by some other posters what they can and cannot say. What's wrong with a fan who raves about a dancer they really enjoyed watching? Honestly, are we not free anymore to express our joy after seeing a performance?  Since when is it frowned upon when a poster raves about a dancer (or two or three).

 

Where is the freedom of speech and expression without being "told off" by someone for expressing ones view and feeling? 

 

You are free to moo as much as you wish but I won't hold myself back when I want to rave about (a) dancer(s) who gave me immense pleasure. You can always opt for not reading the many gushing fan posts. 

 

Edited by Xandra Newman
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21 minutes ago, Xandra Newman said:

 

I am frankly really tired of this Post, we had a similar Post not so long ago in "Snowflake - No not another Nutcracker review...". How tiresome did that become! I stopped reading at some point. It created such an animosity so much so that several knowledgable posters stop posting and commenting all together.

 

It feels as if posters are regularly told by some other posters what they can and cannot say. What's wrong with a fan who raves about a dancer they really enjoyed watching? Honestly, are we not free anymore to express our joy after seeing a performance?  Since when is it frowned upon when a poster raves about a dancer (or two or three).

 

Where is the freedom of speech and expression without being "told off" by someone for expressing ones view and feeling? 

 

You are free to moo as much as you wish but I won't hold myself back when I want to rave about (a) dancer(s) who gave me immense pleasure. You can always opt for not reading the many gushing fan posts. 

 

 

The whole thread agrees that people have their favorite dancers and people can wax lyrical about their favorite dancers, I don’t mind at all. 

 

That you go from a lighthearted  moo to worrying about freedom of expression is a bit of a stretch.

 

Everyone is free to go crazy about their favorite dancers, but they also need to be balanced about replying if people do not share their own views. It is actually usually those who have these ‘sacred cows’ that complain and act so defensively if people don’t share their views as I expressed in my first paragraph.

 

Edited to add: also reacted so strongly to light -hearted comments.

 

I could have cried Xenophopia about being a Swiss cow-lover, but I take it with a sense of fun.

 

Edited by SwissBalletFan
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35 minutes ago, SwissBalletFan said:

 

The whole thread agrees that people have their favorite dancers and people can wax lyrical about their favorite dancers, I don’t mind at all. 

 

That you go from a lighthearted  moo to worrying about freedom of expression is a bit of a stretch.

 

Everyone is free to go crazy about their favorite dancers, but they also need to be balanced about replying if people do not share their own views. It is actually usually those who have these ‘sacred cows’ that complain and act so defensively if people don’t share their views as I expressed in my first paragraph.

 

Edited to add: also reacted so strongly to light -hearted comments.

 

I could have cried Xenophopia about being a Swiss cow-lover, but I take it with a sense of fun.

 

 

I do not recall reading posts from those with so-called sacred cows who act defensively if people don't share their views... unless it's a healthy debate clarifying his/her point(s) of view. There used to be an Osipova fan who did that but he/she is no longer posting.

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Nothing to do with the Forum but years ago I had a sacred cow dancer whom my chums were not keen on.  In the end I just stopped mentioning the dancer at all.  Then I discovered by chance that a lot of other people were very keen on that dancer too.  It was quite a revelation to me.

 

These days if I like a dancer I say so and if I don't I tend not to say anything.

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1 hour ago, Xandra Newman said:

 

I am frankly really tired of this Post, we had a similar Post not so long ago in "Snowflake - No not another Nutcracker review...". How tiresome did that become! I stopped reading at some point. It created such an animosity so much so that several knowledgable posters stop posting and commenting all together.

 

It feels as if posters are regularly told by some other posters what they can and cannot say. What's wrong with a fan who raves about a dancer they really enjoyed watching? Honestly, are we not free anymore to express our joy after seeing a performance?  Since when is it frowned upon when a poster raves about a dancer (or two or three).

 

Where is the freedom of speech and expression without being "told off" by someone for expressing ones view and feeling? 

 

You are free to moo as much as you wish but I won't hold myself back when I want to rave about (a) dancer(s) who gave me immense pleasure. You can always opt for not reading the many gushing fan posts. 

 

Xandra, your post puzzles me as it seems to refer to a situation that IMHO existed at the time of the dreaded Snowflake thread, but that has dissipated.  Some of the sentiments expressed at that time horrified me, being intensely protective of dancers and, in my opinion, the anthesis of what a discussion forum should be about.  I fought against this and then retired from the fray after one contributor implied that I was heartless because I didn’t have a daughter who was a dancer.  It seemed to me that it was pointless posting anything.

 

However, since that time I feel there is a new climate that promotes freedom of expression and I honestly think this thread is nicely good-humoured and enjoyable, whilst at the same time promoting different viewpoints.  If I am guilty of gushing, then itisn’t anything to do with sacred cows.  I have been privileged to see three extraordinary performances of Manon this run and I have not been able find enough words to describe the joy they have given me.  Yesterday I took a friend who had only ever seen one ballet before and her engrossed rapture was a lovely thing to see.  We tripped out of ROH as if walking on air.

 

i expect I will be back to my critical self some time soon!

 

 

 

Edited by penelopesimpson
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I think some years ago there was a column in one of the newspapers headed One Man's Meat.....  it would publish vastly different comments about the same artist/performance and was constantly entertaining. Mostly aimed at musical performances, but other things crept in.  we all have our likes and dislikes and this is what makes a forum like this so welcome as long as we remember that my sacred cow is your dislike - and respect it!  On a personal level I love meeting people who share my tastes, also people who have very different tastes and let's face it there are enough dancers around to suit everyone.

 

 

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I would personally prefer it if people did not use the word 'gush' when referring to other people's posts. I find it a derogatory way of describing the bubbling enthusiasm many of us cannot stop ourselves from expressing after a performance we have loved.

 

And I don't actually think there are any 'sacred cows' on this forum. There are just a lot of dancers who are greatly loved.

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What about choreographers? Here are a few of my perceptions:

  1. Ashton and Petipa get very little criticism here
  2. Though MacMillan is also very popular, comment is more mixed (and some of his ballets, such as The Judas Tree, are outright disliked)
  3. North American readers would probably consider Balanchine under-represented
  4. "Soviet" choreographers, including Grigorovich, aren't generally well thought of
  5. McGregor gets mixed reviews
  6. Everyone here likes Sir Peter Wright's productions, yet A Prominent NY Critic calls him "Sir Peter Wrong": does he have a point?

 

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20 hours ago, bridiem said:

I would personally prefer it if people did not use the word 'gush' when referring to other people's posts. I find it a derogatory way of describing the bubbling enthusiasm many of us cannot stop ourselves from expressing after a performance we have loved.

 

I can't think of an exact synonym for gush, but the best way to deal with the more inane posts is simply to move onto the next.

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