Are 32 fouettés necessary?

[DrewCo]

45 minutes ago, BeauxArts said:

32 fouettes, sur place, well-executed from a technical perspective, no doubles or triples, would be very fine to see. 

 

I find well-executed, on the music singles preferable to doubles and triples less well-executed. But actually in Swan Lake, I think I prefer singles anyway. Even well executed doubles and triples tend to slow things down—which can actually be less viscerally exciting especially when the relation to the music gets distorted. And when just a few doubles and triples are thrown in the mix arbitrarily—as opposed to a regular pattern of alternating singles and doubles or some such—it even undermines the image of Odile as magically in control of her seductive powers. A triple can look like ‘luck’ if it’s just arbitrarily inserted now and then.  Fast, powerful singles with the working leg kept close to ninety degrees can be very exciting (assuming the upper body isn’t a tense mess).

 

Leaving fouettes out of a full length Swan Lake altogether? I much prefer to see them, but the right ballerina can make a powerful case for allowing some leeway. Among ballerinas I have seen live, I hugely admired Maria Kowroski’s Odette/Odile at New York City Ballet and the two times I saw her dance the role she did an alternate sequence of turns around the stage.

 

 

[capybara]

I would answer "no" to the question, except that, many years ago, I saw Olga Chenchikova (Kirov) dancing  in Dublin and she didn't move an inch. Her ability to bore a hole in the stage gave Odile an extra, evil dimension. I have never seen anything like it before or since. Her Siegfried (Makharbak Vaziev - now AD of the Bolshoi) was suitably enraptured.

[Geoff]

38 minutes ago, capybara said:

many years ago, I saw Olga Chenchikova (Kirov) dancing  in Dublin and she didn't move an inch. Her ability to bore a hole in the stage gave Odile an extra, evil dimension. I have never seen anything like it before or since. 

 

Anything like this, capybara?

 

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Geoff

[Amelia]

Thank you, capybara and Geoff, for bringing back the memories of that opening night in Dublin. Chenchikova's performance was stupendous. I watched from the wings and saw how Vinogradov clapped ecstatically when Olga finished.

[BeauxArts]

Olga was a phenomenon! Who remembers her Giselle as well?  

[alison]

I don't think I ever saw her as anything other than Gamzatti ...

[fromthebalcony]

I have been following the story about Misty Copeland.  As for Misty, she has always had trouble with the fouettés, and I do wish that McKenzie would have her do something else in their place.  I would much prefer to see her (and others) perform 16 well-executed single fouettés followed by strong pique turns.  

[Pas de Quatre]

That is a lovely clip, and I agree I would much rather see good single fouettés on the beat rather than random double and triple making it totally unmusical.  Olga's solo is exquisite, and surely that is where Odile bewitches Siegfried.  After their opening of the Coda, most Siegfrieds nip offstage for a quick breather during the Fouettés, so it changes nothing in the story if Odile dances another step.  However, I don't like a pause in the music as shown (made worse in my opinion by stopping for applause and reverence), with a long gap before Siegfried enters again.  The Coda should be a continuous piece until the end.

[Tony Newcombe]

I remember a performance by Nao Sakura of BRB. We are used to seeing Odile enter towards the rear of the stage before starting the fouettés. Plenty of room for drifting forwards or sideways. Well on that occasion she entered at the front of the stage and rattled the fouettés off without moving an inch. I thought that was making a statement. A case of on the spot or in the orchestra pit.

Edited April 3, 2018 by Tony Newcombe
Spelling error

[Pas de Quatre]

Fouettés

 

Here are lots of different fouetté clips for you to enjoy!  Mainly Don Q at first, but then some Odile and Flames of Paris.  In some ballets there are actually deliberately travelling diagonals of fouettés but of course I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.  Can anyone else think of one? 

Edited April 3, 2018 by Pas de Quatre
Link

[Amelia]

I also prefer when Odile does “scathing”, “stinging” single fouettés, which are, appropriately, more aggressive. However, it is a pleasure to see in other ballets, depending on the mood of the character, how fouettés can be varied. Here is how one ballerina does it in different roles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arVnNSCFAME

[Pas de Quatre]

Lovely, thanks for posting Amelia, and the travelling fouettés are in Coppelia at 2.46.

[Lisa O`Brien]

The first time I ever saw Swan Lake, at the Palace Theatre, Manchester, was SWRB's version, starring Galina Samsova. She completely omitted them all.

[Coated]

5 hours ago, Amelia said:

I also prefer when Odile does “scathing”, “stinging” single fouettés, which are, appropriately, more aggressive. However, it is a pleasure to see in other ballets, depending on the mood of the character, how fouettés can be varied. Here is how one ballerina does it in different roles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arVnNSCFAME

Ballet catnip, I'm currently purring with pleasure.

[toursenlair]

7 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Fouettés

 

Here are lots of different fouetté clips for you to enjoy!  Mainly Don Q at first, but then some Odile and Flames of Paris.  In some ballets there are actually deliberately travelling diagonals of fouettés but of course I can't think of any examples off the top of my head.  Can anyone else think of one? 

Nutcracker grand pdd in some versions

 

[fromthebalcony]

Boston Ballet uses the traveling fouettés in their version of the Nutcracker.  Do you think they would have the same effect if done in Swan Lake?  

[toursenlair]

I just saw a black swan pdd as part of a gala. It had very circus-like fouettes. Added to this the largely Russian audience did the clap-along thing and the pdd ground to a halt after the fouettes so the ballerina could take a bow... and my brain was screaming "Please, please, someone do a Swan Lake that doesn't have the damn fouettes in it!!!!"

[Fonty]

On 01/04/2018 at 14:28, Viv said:

. A perfectly executed, in-character portrayal of 32 fouettes will certainly do that. A hodge podge mess will not. And a different step entirely can still convey the same intention if performed well. If a dancer can perfectly portray the differences in the two swans and dazzle the audience, should that dancer not get cast because she can only reliably do 16 fouettes? In my opinion that would be ludicrous. Some people just aren't turners. Sometimes your shoe is starting to go or you can't get on your leg or you're nursing an injury. I would rather see someone kill 16 fouettes and then do 16 turns from 5th, or poses, or jumps, or anything else done in character, with nerve and with passion, than someone so concerned with getting the requisite 32 that timing and artistry and musicality are lost. If I wanted to watch 32 amazing fouettes I would search for them on youtube, not spend $70 on a theatre ticket...

 

I couldn't agree more.  

 

Some dancers are brilliant turners, and then the sequence is as it should be - exciting and spectacular.  I always enjoy watching the fouettes if the dancer executes them in time with the music, and most importantly, looking relaxed.  Unfortunately, lots of times I never see that.  Some execute them well, but do them with a scowl on their faces as they concentrate. Others throw in all sorts of fireworks, but ignore the music, which really annoys me.  Why bother with the orchestra at all if you are going to do that?  And some go wrong right at the start, and never seem to catch up, getting more and more strained as the music goes on.  Those are the worst - I find myself tensing up, hoping they don't fall over.  

 

Not all dancers are natural turners, although they may be brilliant in every other aspect.  I think every Odile should be taught how to get out of trouble if things go wrong, which they frequently do. If a dancer has a back up plan, and performs it with aplomb, I am sure they will be applauded every bit as much.  

 

 

[Jan McNulty]

51 minutes ago, Fonty said:

Not all dancers are natural turners, although they may be brilliant in every other aspect.  I think every Odile should be taught how to get out of trouble if things go wrong, which they frequently do. If a dancer has a back up plan, and performs it with aplomb, I am sure they will be applauded every bit as much.  

 

 

 

What a great suggestion Fonty!

[toursenlair]

1 hour ago, Fonty said:

 

Not all dancers are natural turners, although they may be brilliant in every other aspect.  I think every Odile should be taught how to get out of trouble if things go wrong, which they frequently do. If a dancer has a back up plan, and performs it with aplomb, I am sure they will be applauded every bit as much.  

 

 

try telling that to Misty Copeland after the hatestorm she has had to put up with for switching out of her fouettes to pique turns....

[Colman]

Yeah, but that has very little to do with her technique.

[Sharon]

On 4/3/2018 at 19:35, Lisa O`Brien said:

The first time I ever saw Swan Lake, at the Palace Theatre, Manchester, was SWRB's version, starring Galina Samsova. She completely omitted them all.

Surprising as Samsova had an amazing technique, her jumps, turns were always a breeze for her. Perhaps this production was choregraphed without the fouettes?? Not likely I know. Is it more likely that Samsova omitted them due to injury or inability to no longer perform them cleanly or to the standard she previously danced them.

[BeauxArts]

It seems one of the issues with the Copeland performance is that her Plan B was not that well executed (either).  But the idea of having a suitably compelling alternative to the 32 fouettés is reasonable in principle. 

[SMballet]

I have been really enjoying and learning from this discussion. For me, I don;t care about the 31 fouettes, but I get very excited when I see fouettes (again, doesnt matter the number) executed to the music, and with no traveling (unless that is part of the choreography). To my (untrained) eyes, if a ballerina "travels" when she shouldn't, it looks less elegant, and just not right; ditto if the turns are out of the music. For me, thus, musicality and elegance are more pleasing than the technically correct execution of a step, perhaps because I dont know enough to know when a step is being executed correctly. But my eyes see when a step is out of music, or when the dancer is moving (travelling) when he or she shouldn't. I should say I have the same reaction towards male dancers, during their entrechats or grand jetes  : I am less impressed by the height of the jump, or how quickly they beat their feet, if it doessnt go with th emusic, and if the landing is ugly/loud. I think I prefer an understated delicate style.

[_emeralds]

3 hours ago, SMballet said:

 ditto if the turns are out of the music. For me, thus, musicality and elegance are more pleasing than the technically correct execution of a step, perhaps because I dont know enough to know when a step is being executed correctly. .....

........I am less impressed by the height of the jump, or how quickly they beat their feet, if it doessnt go with th emusic, and if the landing is ugly/loud. I think I prefer an understated delicate style.

You're spot on there, SMballet, musicality and technique are inseparable. There is no movement without the music, and if the way the steps are executed doesnt fit to the music, or if the dancer doesn't react to the music then to me it's not technically 'correct' anyway.

As for fouettes, I can't stand them off the music! Coda music really 'helps' fouettes so it must be twice as hard for the dancer doing them off!

[Anon2]

12 hours ago, Sharon said:

Surprising as Samsova had an amazing technique, her jumps, turns were always a breeze for her. Perhaps this production was choregraphed without the fouettes?? Not likely I know. Is it more likely that Samsova omitted them due to injury or inability to no longer perform them cleanly or to the standard she previously danced them.

Or she didn’t feel the stage was safe for her to do them?

[alison]

9 hours ago, SMballet said:

To my (untrained) eyes, if a ballerina "travels" when she shouldn't, it looks less elegant, and just not right; ditto if the turns are out of the music.

 

Just like in ice skating, I think it matters that the turns/spins are properly centred and not travelling.

[assoluta]

On 4/3/2018 at 09:21, Amelia said:

I also prefer when Odile does “scathing”, “stinging” single fouettés, which are, appropriately, more aggressive. However, it is a pleasure to see in other ballets, depending on the mood of the character, how fouettés can be varied. Here is how one ballerina does it in different roles:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=arVnNSCFAME

This is how she may have wrecked her feet.

[Amelia]

It might be. But she is in general an incredibly hard worker, practicing a lot herself and usually offering partners to rehearse more, after the scheduled rehearsals.

[Sharon]

5 hours ago, assoluta said:

This is how she may have wrecked her feet.

Wrecked her feet ??

I didn't know she had problems with her feet (well beyond the usual ballerina bunions,etc).

[betterankles]

She doesn’t...    

[capybara]

 

I've just watched, and enjoyed, the montage of Osipova's fouettes. She introduces a lot of variety in each case but not once does she get out of step with the music. Brava!

[assoluta]

15 hours ago, betterankles said:

She doesn’t...    

She does.