Nicola H Posted March 29, 2018 Share Posted March 29, 2018 6 hours ago, annaliesey said: Re the “chavvy” remark, I can understand the different treatment between private and main stream schools. Even though there is actual legislation under children in entertainment, the rules regarding monitoring and reporting are very different. With private schools, time off is a “commercial arrangement” whereas local authority come down on mainstream like a tonne of bricks. Law should be consistent in my view and not determinedly by social class! Absolutely nothing to do with the management of the school and it;s funding and everything to do with the attitudes displayed by certain groups within the population towards not being able to take their children out of school during term time for their annual dose of increased skin cancer risk because it;s cheaper .in term time . The kind of people who kick off because a child is given authorised absence for dance / music / sports training or competion as they can;t see the difference ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2dancersmum Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 "chavvy but with means / nouveau riche parents who want to break the rules solely for hoildays ... ( or even chavvy without means thanks to the super soaraway Scum and the 10 pound holiday promotion )" I too find your remarks rude and rather offensive but then I guess I fall into your 'certain groups' category that you clearly disdain. Before my children were in secondary school, we often took our summer holidays a few days before term ended. We used to go camping in France and the price literally doubled as soon as term ended and that was within 48 hours. And we have been known to go on weekend breaks with £10 holiday promotions. I wonder if you are a parent? I don't consider myself or my family unusual in trying to have an annual holiday or an occasional cheap weekend away - we haven't always managed it - and I suspect there are many other parents in this forum like myself . I'm sorry but you are being just as judgmental as that newspaper. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletmum55 Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 1 minute ago, 2dancersmum said: "chavvy but with means / nouveau riche parents who want to break the rules solely for hoildays ... ( or even chavvy without means thanks to the super soaraway Scum and the 10 pound holiday promotion )" I too find your remarks rude and rather offensive but then I guess I fall into your 'certain groups' category that you clearly disdain. Before my children were in secondary school, we often took our summer holidays a few days before term ended. We used to go camping in France and the price literally doubled as soon as term ended and that was within 48 hours. And we have been known to go on weekend breaks with £10 holiday promotions. I wonder if you are a parent? I don't consider myself or my family unusual in trying to have an annual holiday or an occasional cheap weekend away - we haven't always managed it - and I suspect there are many other parents in this forum like myself . I'm sorry but you are being just as judgmental as that newspaper. Absolutely agree xxx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Regardless of what the sun newsoaper have or havnt done (& they are nothing to do with this issue) I think you have offended a lot of people by using a highly offensive term & at the very least an apology would be in order. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 A post has been hidden while being discussed by Moderators for breach of the AUP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Getting back on topic, I've never had an issue taking my daughter out of school for graded exams in ballet and music, or Vocational ballet exams. RAD exams are classed as off-site education - at least by our local authority - and if I remember rightly, there is information on the RAD website which can be copied and pasted into a letter to school. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Anna C said: Getting back on topic, I've never had an issue taking my daughter out of school for graded exams in ballet and music, or Vocational ballet exams. RAD exams are classed as off-site education - at least by our local authority - and if I remember rightly, there is information on the RAD website which can be copied and pasted into a letter to school. Exactly , there are a number of codings that should/ could be used in these situations depending on the Head / Governing Body / Ofsted interpretation of the the approvals for 'off site education' especially coding that session of the schooling as 'B' educated off site - not sure how much input LAs have on this any more given how few schools especially Secondary schools are under the dead hand of county hall . the relevant guidance from the Dept for Education is this document https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/564599/school_attendance.pdf Edited March 30, 2018 by Nicola H 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Several dance schools suggest parents give a copy of this letter from the RAD to their child's Headteacher: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, Anna C said: Several dance schools suggest parents give a copy of this letter from the RAD to their child's Headteacher: that link doesn't parse is it this letter dated sept 2016 from Dr McBirnie ? http://www.jacquiison.co.uk/pdf/School-Absence-Letter-England.pdf Edited March 30, 2018 by Nicola H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Does this work? http://www.jacquiison.co.uk/pdf/School-Absence-Letter-England.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) Just now, Anna C said: Does this work? http://www.jacquiison.co.uk/pdf/School-Absence-Letter-England.pdf great minds think alike but fools seldom differ it appears - i edited my reply saying the link Anna originally posted didn't parse/ resolve or whatever word the html gurus use this week posting the link obtained by searching for ' RAD exam letter school' Edited March 30, 2018 by Nicola H Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I seem to be in the minority here, but I do not agree with parents taking their children on holiday In term-time or that ballet exams should count as "exceptional circumstances" (because alternative arrangements are possible.) However, the former issue should be dealt with by legislating against the tour companies so that they are not allowed to charge such high prices during school holidays, rather than by penalising the parents. It mainly seems to be the RAD who schedule their exams on school days and don't offer flexibility - since I have been dancing as an adult, I have never come across a teacher from the other exam boards who has not been able to get weekend dates (when they ask for them early enough). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HAIRBELLES Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Maybe that's why dd failed her GCSE maths too many Friday's off for RBS associate lessons 😜......purely said tongue-in-cheek . Not forgetting that some exams attract UCAS points that can come in very handy if you don't have A levels . 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 13 minutes ago, youngatheart said: I seem to be in the minority here, but I do not agree with parents taking their children on holiday In term-time or that ballet exams should count as "exceptional circumstances" (because alternative arrangements are possible.) However, the former issue should be dealt with by legislating against the tour companies so that they are not allowed to charge such high prices during school holidays, rather than by penalising the parents. It mainly seems to be the RAD who schedule their exams on school days and don't offer flexibility - since I have been dancing as an adult, I have never come across a teacher from the other exam boards who has not been able to get weekend dates (when they ask for them early enough). I find it extremely hard to the point of virtually impossible to justify holidays in term time ( one of the few exceptions i'd make there is where Serving military personnel on active deployments have their leave set by the CoC , or where a parent is terminally ill , there a problably others which count as exceptional but that is a decision for head teachers and governing bodies informed by any case law formulated ) legislating against demand management is extremely hard to do , and likely may just result in either scams to get round the legislation on behalf of the tour operators or them simply raising prices to the peak level all season , Ironically the dogged and dogmatic insistence of everywhere in the UK apart from Scotland and Leicestershire ( who tend to finish at the end of june have all of july off and go back in mid august - up to 2 weeks before the August BH ) in having the summer holidays as all of August with most of the last week of July and first week of September doesn't help. the English exam periods are by and large over by the end of June. There;s also stuff like the 5 term years that get proposed with equally spread equal length holidays between them rather than the long summer holiday which is an artefact of c19th manual / horse drawn farming ... the floating Easter doesn't help things but arguably you avoid that by having Easter as long weekend where ever it falls irrespective of the term dates ( as Easter can fall on any date between 22nd March and 25th April ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 21 hours ago, hfbrew said: It's not as simple as that, my students would not be able to take the exams if examination hours were restricted to out of school hours as I simply would not be able to get the hall space for the necessary length of time. For example I have over 60 candidates entered for RAD exams next term and I also have to factor in examiner breaks,lunch etc. I always ask parents to let me know of potential issues so I can endeavour to timetable accordingly if at all possible. But that's what I meant when I said "culture change" - i.e. the whole concept of "examiner days", "minimum number of hours for a session" etc needs to be made more flexible, So you should not need to "book a hall" especially at all - just be able to have the exams when your hall is already booked for normal class times. So examiner comes on Thursday evening, examines from 4-8pm, spends Friday shopping/sightseeing and returns to examine at 4pm the next day, then continues on Saturday all day (This is not even factoring in the tots/reception age who could start much earlier than 4pm if they are not yet in full-time school). Or as a total alternative, you could combine with other teachers to run an intensive summer school for the teens which ends with 2 days of exams. I just don't see why the exam boards can't think more "outside the box" in this way instead of being wedded to an out-of-date model. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 22 minutes ago, youngatheart said: I seem to be in the minority here, but I do not agree with parents taking their children on holiday In term-time or that ballet exams should count as "exceptional circumstances" (because alternative arrangements are possible.) However, the former issue should be dealt with by legislating against the tour companies so that they are not allowed to charge such high prices during school holidays, rather than by penalising the parents. It mainly seems to be the RAD who schedule their exams on school days and don't offer flexibility - since I have been dancing as an adult, I have never come across a teacher from the other exam boards who has not been able to get weekend dates (when they ask for them early enough). In principle I agree, particularly that holiday companies should not be allowed to charge according to "supply and demand" (e.g. Center Parcs and National Trust Holiday Cottages charging thousands of pounds p/w during holidays), but let's face it, while people are willing and able to pay such inflated prices, nothing will change. 🙁 We did once take our dd out of primary school a few days before a half term holiday for reasons I won't go into here, but actually school was fine with it - partly because it was a one-off and also because they knew dd would catch up easily. There were parents who did it on a yearly or termly basis though and school understandably took a much dimmer view. I suspect the RAD examines many more ballet students overall than the other exam boards and while it's reasonably easy to schedule the junior graded exams for weekends, with Grades 6-8 and Vocational exams it's not often possible, especially when Vocational exams are taken at RAD HQ. This isn't any different for Music exams which have always seemed to be in school time. But again, there's no reason why a school shouldn't be able to note the absence down as approved off-site educational activity. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) That's a whole other debate Nicola! Personally I favour a 4-term model (each term would be 10 weeks with a half-term in the middle - = 44 weeks - which leaves 8 weeks - so between each term there would be a 2-week holiday. Nice and tidy - one term for each season (not that those seem to exist any more). No long summer break - and bank holidays (if they do not come in a holiday week) could be taken and the next holiday reduced by one (or more) days at the beginning. Edited March 30, 2018 by youngatheart earlier "orphan quote" should have gone here 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Not being fully au fait with the management and classification of examiners , are there certain examiners who are only allowed to assess 'lower' grades - i.e. a reduced number of examiners examining grades 6-8 and the VGEs ? The NGBs of various sports i have had past involvement with had had various classifications for both instructors/ teachers and assessors/ examiners which restricts certain trainers or assessors from leading delivering higher graded qualifications or from assessing them / providing assessments with the 'vocational' element. ( as under the older RYA system in the 1990s when one took the 'level 5' dinghy sailing assessment, if the craft used and the conditions were 'correct' ( there was a minimum windspeed iirc ) the assessor could also issue an exemption from the pre-entry assessment to the Instructor course. ( they also introduced an time + venue limited 'assistant instructor' qualification that only required the level 3 award to be completed - level 4 in that system was parallel to level 3 and was solely about racing techniques) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Anna C said: I suspect the RAD examines many more ballet students overall than the other exam boards and while it's reasonably easy to schedule the junior graded exams for weekends, with Grades 6-8 and Vocational exams it's not often possible, especially when Vocational exams are taken at RAD HQ. But this is completely the wrong way round! It matters much less for the younger children to miss 1-2 hours of school to have a local exam, that it does for teens coming up to GCSE/A-levels to miss whole days having to travel to HQ. Vocational HQ/Centre sessions should NEVER EVER be scheduled during term time under any circumstances - the fact that they do is ridiculous. Instead of posting that letter for parents to give to their schools, the RAD should respect the schools' point of view and change their own practices. BTW none of my posts on this topic should be interpreted in any way as agreeing that a child should ever have to miss an exam because their school won't let them off - it is not the child or parent's fault ! However any school/local authority that does not agree with the practice should send a strongly worded letter to the relevant exam board informing them in no uncertain terms that in future they should schedule their exams outside school hours. The exam boards would then have to take it on board. Edited March 30, 2018 by youngatheart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicola H Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 16 minutes ago, youngatheart said: But this is completely the wrong way round! It matters much less for the younger children to miss 1-2 hours of school to have a local exam, that it does for teens coming up to GCSE/A-levels to miss whole days having to travel to HQ. that;s the numbers game at play ... how many girls are taking pre-primary up to gr 3/4 because it's the done thing vs those that carry on to take grades 5-8 and IF / Ele (depending on awarding body) and Int vs those who take the advanced VGEs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) AS mentioned previously there are many many many other examples boards that hold exams in school time the notable ones bring ABRSM for music & LAMDA for drama. And who on earth is going to pay an examiner for all that trapped waiting time. What about their families? Increased hotel bills for all those overnight stays? I know how difficult it is to employ specialist teachers to teach evenings & weekends only so I imagine examiners would be worse. You have to have a minimum number if examing hiurs (or fees in the case of LAMDA & Trinity) to get an examiner visit or it is just not cost effective for them to travel to you. Edited March 30, 2018 by Picturesinthefirelight 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 23 minutes ago, youngatheart said: Vocational HQ/Centre sessions should NEVER EVER be scheduled during term time under any circumstances - the fact that they do is ridiculous. Instead of posting that letter for parents to give to their schools, the RAD should respect the schools' point of view and change their own practices. The schools' point of view is plain wrong. And we are only talking about a few schools anyway, most are fine about it, and will authorise the time off. The higher level RAD exams are awarded UCAS points, and the advanced 1 & 2 are level 4 on the QCF framework. They are proper formal examinations with qualifications, and should be regarded as such. If schools are happy for students to take time off for training/competing in sporting events then they should also allow time off for dance exams. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 20 minutes ago, Nicola H said: that;s the numbers game at play ... how many girls are taking pre-primary up to gr 3/4 because it's the done thing vs those that carry on to take grades 5-8 and IF / Ele (depending on awarding body) and Int vs those who take the advanced VGEs You could say that about any activity. Young children try various things whether it be dance, piano lessons, football training, gymnastics & as they get older only the serious ones continue to the higher grades. My own son (yes it’s oerfectly acceptable for boys to like dance or football or both or neither )has been through stagecoach, LAMDA, football, violin, hockey, youth theatre before settling on musical theatre, tap, guitar, singing & piano. Edited March 30, 2018 by Picturesinthefirelight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 It’s noticeable that in my local area (the same area Bluebird was talking of) the local authority that has no problem with children taking time off for exams at all levels has markedly better rated schools & results then the local authority that causes problems. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 (edited) 40 minutes ago, taxi4ballet said: The schools' point of view is plain wrong. And we are only talking about a few schools anyway, most are fine about it, and will authorise the time off. The higher level RAD exams are awarded UCAS points, and the advanced 1 & 2 are level 4 on the QCF framework. They are proper formal examinations with qualifications, and should be regarded as such. If schools are happy for students to take time off for training/competing in sporting events then they should also allow time off for dance exams. No they are not "wrong"! The status of the qualifications is irrelevant, it is the degree of "unavoidability" of the absence that is the relevant criterion.There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why Vocational exam sessions cannot be held on weekends or school holidays. Same goes for auditions. And if it is only a few local authorities that object, then the exam boards should know by now which these are and be able to work around them. Looking at the advertised HQ dates for this year, it specifically says "exams will not take place during half term" and "Exams at headquarters normally take place on weekdays, but may be scheduled at weekends when necessary" - instead of the other way round. It just beggars all belief to me. https://www.rad.org.uk/achieve/exams/more-information/exam-dates Edited March 30, 2018 by youngatheart Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 5 minutes ago, youngatheart said: No they are not "wrong"! The status of the qualifications is irrelevant, it is the degree of "unavoidability" of the absence that is the relevant criterion.There is absolutely no reason whatsoever why Vocational exam sessions cannot be held on weekends or school holidays. Same goes for auditions. And if it is only a few local authorities that object, then the exam boards should know by now which these are and be able to work around them. Many students taking the higher vocational exams will be associates at one school or another, and they are at the weekends. CAT schemes are also at the weekend. They don't schedule advanced ballet exams at the beginning of the school summer holiday as that is when all the vocational schools have their summer schools. You can't take them in the middle of the holidays because, surprise surprise you would probably be on holiday with your family (since you aren't allowed to go on holiday in termtime) and you would need time to rest and recover from the exertions at summer school. You can't take them at the end of the school holidays because you would not have had sufficient preparation for the exam with your dance teacher, as their school would be closed for the holiday as well. In any case you might be performing with NYB or EYB as both of those usually schedule rehearsals/performances in the second half of the summer holiday. Students in year 11 will spend the Easter break revising for their GCSE's. That only leaves the half-terms (when dancers are taking a well-earned and much-needed rest) and Christmas/New Year and I'm sure that the examiners would be thrilled to have to work then. Incidentally, the RAD does hold intensive exam training courses at their HQ during the school summer holiday, with the option to take the exam at the end of it. I'm sorry, but if a school is going to allow students to take time off school to compete in a golf tournament or football match, or to the theatre to watch Othello, or to represent the school in gymnastics or to go on school skiing trips in Colorado then they should damn well allow vocationally-minded dancers to take exams leading to professional qualifications. 14 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 19 hours ago, annaliesey said: Re the “chavvy” remark, I can understand the different treatment between private and main stream schools. Even though there is actual legislation under children in entertainment, the rules regarding monitoring and reporting are very different. With private schools, time off is a “commercial arrangement” whereas local authority come down on mainstream like a tonne of bricks. Law should be consistent in my view and not determinedly by social class! This is simply not true. One of my children was educated in the 'private' sector, having won a music scholarship to a prestigious independent school, the other (despite also having won a scholarship) chose to go to the local comprehensive because that suited her better. There are plenty of affluent well educated "middle class" parents who choose to educate in the state sector, because they prefer to spend their money on other things - entirely their choice. By the same token, not all children who attend independent schools are from affluent homes. For every parent who rocks up at the school gates in a Maserati there are many more who have taken on additional financing, or who rely heavily on grandparents to meet fee costs. And there are children on bursaries and scholarships who are there by the grace of others... State schools, since they are funded by the government, are naturally answerable to the government. And if the policy is no absences in term time, that is how it is. Independent schools, far from being some kind of luxury holiday camp for the idle rich, are answerable to a far tougher audience - the parents who pay a lot of money for their children to go there. No one is going to shell out £15 - £20K per annum for their children to get rubbish grades at GCSE and A level. And as its much easier to change independent schools, parents will not hesitate to vote with their feet if they think the school is not up to scratch. In consequence independent school generally require far more of their pupils, with a longer school day, possible Saturday commitments and a lot of prep. They do not readily give time off in school hours, and they can ask you to leave if they are not happy with your conduct. With my dd in a state school, I only ever took her out for critical unavoidable reasons (such as auditions) with a promise to ensure that she caught up on all the work that she had missed. As her attendance was otherwise impeccable, there was never an issue with her having the time off. It is true that interpretation of the attendance regs does vary from one head teacher to another, and some clarification of the rules would be helpful. However, as a parent is just another rock to negotiate either by checking out the school before you go there (assuming you have a choice) or by exercising your sense of priority with the odd diplomatic illness where needed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 I think we're just going to have to "agree to disagree" on this one Taxi (but see my edited post above). However, school-organised activities can be planned for to a certain degree within the curriculum as they tend to involve large groups of students at the same time (although school ski-ing trips should, of course, take place in the school holidays the same way as any other holiday!) As I said, the relevant point is whether there is a feasible alternative time or not (e.g. routine dentists checkups should not take place during school hours, but emergency treatments may have to.) It is the RAD who are making it "not feasible" in the case of dance exams, rather than it being inherently so. It is made worse by not being given the option to specify inconvenient dates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 As a parent with children who have been in private, vocational & state schools & a husband who is a teacher can categorically state that schools do not organise their own activities around the curriculum. Children are taken out of classes for trips, sports matches & the school play & they and the teachers are expected to just deal with it. Dance, music drama exams would become even more elitist than they already are if children were not allowed to take time out for them. Educationally & socially this would be a very bad thing. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Piccolo Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 The RAD graded exams are not compulsory. There is always the option to follow the grade but to choose not to do the exam. I think the RAD Intermediate vocational exam is important though isn’t it? I’ve always cherished my time out with dd on her exam days, then going for food afterwards. I also think it is a lesson in individuality and doing what’s right for her educationally. I hope it helps her to realise that you don’t always have to follow the crowd. After all, one day they will all have to choose their own paths and I think her ballet is paving the way for this now. I’m glad that DD’s school recognise that education needs to be individualised to an extent and support extra curricular activities. We’ve always remarked on this forum on the good time management skills of our dc’s because of their sense of self discipline that they learn in the studio. Dd has always managed to catch up with any work missed in school. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
youngatheart Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 As I said, I would never expect a child to be made to miss a dance exam rather than to miss school. I just think that the exam boards should be prepared to adapt to todays educational climate by acknowledging that whenever it is humanly possible to arrange exam sessions out of school hours, that should be done. Having them during school hours should be regarded as the "last resort" rather than the "norm", and any parent not wishing to take their child out of school, either because the school don't allow it or because of their own views on the matter, should have the absolute right to request a more suitable time, not be forced to accept whatever time they are given. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Why should the exam boards change something they have been successfully doing for years? Music exams in my area already run over the course of 2-3 full weeks Mon-Fri 9-6 & Saturday 9-2. Then the examiner moves to a different area. No dance examiner will work such limited unsociable hours. And neither teachers, pupils or examiners will be available during school holidays. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted March 30, 2018 Share Posted March 30, 2018 Any parent not wishing to take their child out of school can choose for their child not to take an exam. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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