British training at Lower and Upper Schools

[Tiaramum]

15 minutes ago, meadowblythe said:

 

Although my son was assessed out, if you think about it logically, the chances are that it won't.  If 10% of a year leave, 90% won't.

 

Whatever happens you have WL on your CV.  My son's view is that if he hadn't attended his first school, even though he wasn't that happy there, he wouldn't have the technique to be where he is now.  Possibly the name on the CV helped too - there were a lot of ex-students from that school in his first company.  But if he hadn't been assessed out he would have lost his love of dancing, and doubts if he would have continued,  the school  just wasn't right for him.

 

Thank you Meadowblythe for that. I really appreciate hearing that - its reassuring

[balletcoach]

On 19/03/2018 at 20:26, invisiblecircus said:

Regarding the fact that only 2 girls who have been at WL from year 7 have been accepted to US (alongside 2 WL girls who started in Y11 and 2 other WL girls), do we know how many WL girls who started in year 7 are still at the school, and out of those, how many actually wanted an US place? I seem to say the same thing every year when this topic comes up, but the number might not be as bad as it seems, especially since we know a higher number of boys have been given places in US. There is a fairly high rate of attrition throughout the lower school with injuries, assessing out and students simply deciding that dance or the school are not for them, and only a small number of students to begin with. If there were 12 girls who started in Y7, it is almost certainly not the case that the same 12 are vying for US places. Some probably dropped out before and of those remaining, they might not all have wanted an US place.

 

On the subject of the standard of training at UK lower schools in general, the UK does have a bit of a reputation, justifiably so in my opinion, to spend a lot of time on perfecting movements before progressing to more advanced work. Some posters have mentioned the balance between Dance and academic study, suggesting that foreign schools spend more time on dance at the expense of academic preparation. Obviously all schools differ in this but I do feel that a higher standard could be achieved dance-wise in the UK without any change in the amount of time spent in the studio by starting to teach more advanced work at a younger age instead of spending so long perfecting the basics.

Lastly, I would like to comment on people's different reports, both positive and negative about their time at vocational school. I attended a vocational school in Europe and a few years after graduating, got back in touch with a girl I had been close friends with during my time there. We lived in the same dorm, had mostly the same friends and all the same teachers (but were in different classes) but our feelings about our time at the school could not be more different. I remember hard times, but have only happy memories and still consider my time at the school to be the best of my life. My friend still felt traumatised by her experience of the school. My point is that two people living through the same thing can experience it differently depending on their personality, so what might bother some, would not bother another. That is not to suggest that there does not need to be a great deal more mental health support in vocational schools. I have no personal experience of UK schools but from others' accounts there does seem to be a huge need for greater support as well as a change in the "beyond reproach" attitude that some of the schools have.

It's not so difficult to find out. Look at RBS broshure (paper one, Summer perfomances each year). At the end you can see names of students, if you see  name* - it's mean they were JA's (so most likely y7 as well). Well... look at the names in US, especially graduating year - the little * dissapears. Most of those perfect and talented from God,  very carefully selected 'clay' to work and Craft with... dissapears. The problem is, perfect ones - often the ones who not madly fighting for survival (NOT ALL, of course, but from years of observation, even my students), then they might be let down as a consequence. And that is what AD has mentioned about not so long ago in some ballet journal as well.

[taxi4ballet]

14 hours ago, balletcoach said:

The problem is, perfect ones - often the ones who not madly fighting for survival (NOT ALL, of course, but from years of observation, even my students), then they might be let down as a consequence. And that is what AD has mentioned about not so long ago in some ballet journal as well.

Fighting for survival? It's children we are talking about here.  

 

And the article in that ballet journal (the Dancing Times, it was) - well, that went down like a lead balloon with the students. One of them told me so.

[Dance*is*life]

How sad to read all this. I had three years in the RBS US in the 60s and it was so different then. The White Lodgers automatically got into the Senior School and had their own truncated training all together of just two years - 3A and the Graduates normally.  The rest of us who were talented but not WL usually had to have three years of training.  We were very much in awe of those from WL!   You were only accepted into the company if you were British. I remember one talent was finally accepted because she found a long lost British relative!  The "foreigners" had their own separate classes and the standard was lower.  Topsy turvy world eh?

[Moneypenny]

This does indeed make sad reading. What is even more sad is that most of those graduating from ballet schools will really really struggle to get jobs, that is the truth of it. The job search is expensive and brutal, candidates are treated like cattle at some auditions and toxic is a word I would use to describe some elements of the industry. It is most certainly not for the faint hearted.

[Sophoife]

14 hours ago, Dance*is*life said:

How sad to read all this. I had three years in the RBS US in the 60s and it was so different then. The White Lodgers automatically got into the Senior School and had their own truncated training all together of just two years - 3A and the Graduates normally.  The rest of us who were talented but not WL usually had to have three years of training.  We were very much in awe of those from WL!   You were only accepted into the company if you were British. I remember one talent was finally accepted because she found a long lost British relative!  The "foreigners" had their own separate classes and the standard was lower.  Topsy turvy world eh?

 

From the memoirs of people who were at Sadler's Wells in the 50s, there were certainly foreigners in both the Junior and Senior Schools in Colet Gardens; I wonder when the British-only policy was enacted? Was it when the Wells became the Royal company?

[Ruby Foo]

16 hours ago, Dance*is*life said:

How sad to read all this. I had three years in the RBS US in the 60s and it was so different then. The White Lodgers automatically got into the Senior School and had their own truncated training all together of just two years - 3A and the Graduates normally.  The rest of us who were talented but not WL usually had to have three years of training.  We were very much in awe of those from WL!   You were only accepted into the company if you were British. I remember one talent was finally accepted because she found a long lost British relative!  The "foreigners" had their own separate classes and the standard was lower.  Topsy turvy world eh?

Maybe, during the period that ballet was trying to re- energise itself, looking more towards contemporary influences and post Balanchine, and with dancers now appearing from Russia, that foreign dancers appeared more exotic and appealing? 

[Jan McNulty]

5 hours ago, Sophoife said:

 

From the memoirs of people who were at Sadler's Wells in the 50s, there were certainly foreigners in both the Junior and Senior Schools in Colet Gardens; I wonder when the British-only policy was enacted? Was it when the Wells became the Royal company?

 

I always understood that it was British and Commonwealth?

[Sadielou]

19 hours ago, Moneypenny said:

This does indeed make sad reading. What is even more sad is that most of those graduating from ballet schools will really really struggle to get jobs, that is the truth of it. The job search is expensive and brutal, candidates are treated like cattle at some auditions and toxic is a word I would use to describe some elements of the industry. It is most certainly not for the faint hearted.

We are on the audition circuit at the moment and it is indeed very expensive, brutal and toxic. Most European companies will only audition students of specific heights, boys under 5'11 are generally not even seen regardless of talent, same goes for girls that are too small, seems that 5"5 is the desired height, but the poor girls get it at both ends as they can't be too tall either. It would appear from our recent experiences that height is now more important than talent !  If you get over the height  hurdle and receive an invite to audition, it is in most cases a cattle market. With students (even those from the top schools) being routed out before the end of the classical class. Most companies are now asking for dance photos and videos of classical class and solos, as a pre assessment, presumably as not to waste the time of students that are an obvious non fit for their company. However from what we have witnessed over the past few weeks it would appear that most of these company's hadn't given these videos a second glance. It has been bad enough for us, residing in Europe, but others travelled from much further a field, only to be told goodbye and thank you after only half an hour of class. Three times one of my DC having survived to the end of a full days audition - classical class, pas de deux,  repertoire, has been told that he is too classical as the company in question would only be doing Contemporary rep for the forseeable future. Surely this could have been stated on the audition notice, and in the case of my DC it should have been very obvious from his audition video that he is a  very classical dancer. That is frustrating enough, but having survived to the end of auditions for two of the most prestigious German companies, one said that they hadn't decided wether they wanted, classical or contemporary dancers or those that could do both (why hold an audition until you know what you are auditioning for), and the other company's director didn't look up from his phone throughout the whole process, Both company's told those that made it to the end of the audition day  - 4 cuts in all, that they would email with news good or bad, within two weeks - 6 weeks later we are still waiting, along with the others that my DC knew from those auditions. After 3 weeks my DC emailed both companies to ask for news and one of the company's as to wether it would be worth re auditioning (as this company had started advertising another batch of auditions) but never heard another word from either one. One of our UK companies told all auditionees as they walked into the studio on audition day, that they had no contracts but for grant purposes had to hold annual auditions - Disgusting behaviour !  Not one company audition notice states the terms of the contracts available so in the main auditionees are competing for a job with no knowledge of what they are actually auditioning for or if the job in question even pays. The elation of being offered a contract can soon wear thin when you find out that the only contracts available are for apprenticeships and the pay amounts to 300 euros a month ! This seems to be happening more and more. Even one of the better known  junior companies only offers first year members 1100 euros a month, hardly enough to survive on in a major city, unless you have rich parents. Quite frankly it is little more than exploitation on behalf of these company's, a cheap and easy way to fill their ranks, None of the big European company's can perform the well known classical ballets without junior company / trainees and affiliated school students to swell their ranks. The school students (although of course gaining valuable experience) are usually paid zilch - this is the case at Het Nationale and the RB and no doubt many other companies. In my day the RBS students were paid by performance, even for walk on roles - So much for improvements ! It would just be nice if some of these companies could at least show a little bit of respect to the dancers that travel so far and work so hard and stop the exploitation of hard working students. I guess what I am trying to say, is that the worry surrounding schools, assessments and training is just the beginning, as the stress and the considerable financial strain seems to be never ending. It is definitely, definitely not for the faint hearted.

[Moneypenny]

Sadielou, I absolutely agree with everything you have said. This is the real truth of the ballet world for most and the experiences you describe are typical. I will quote an experience ... flights, two nights in a hotel, a nearly 5 hour wait just to get in the studio, because there are around 400 women auditioning, get in the studio and cut after 15 mins. These highly trained individuals are treated appallingly. 

[Kat09]

So much wasted time, effort , years of education - not to mention money - it’s heartbreaking - wishing all of your dancing young adults eventual success- unfortunately passion and talent alone do not pay the bills - exploitation- makes my blood boil !

probably controversial, but so many dance schools have sprung up , IMO there are now far too many graduates ,and this is fuelling the behaviour of the dance companies - a bigger and bigger pool of candidates chasing an ever decreasing meaningful contract opportunity.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Kat09
Spelling

[Moneypenny]

Too right Kat09!

[Anon2]

Totally agree with Sadielou, Moneypenny & Kat09. Exploitation is rife in the dance world especially for those looking for their first contracts. 

 

We knew auditioning would be difficult but I was shocked at how little support there was from school and the staff. No guidance on best places to audition for each individual dancer’s style and strength. Very little effort to get their graduates seen in the last few years of school. 

I’m relieved to now be out of the dance world. Dd amazed at how much support there is from college staff regarding choosing appropriate university and courses. But if one more person says ‘what a waste, all that hard work, time and money and you’ve given it all up’ ....

[Pas de Quatre]

Having read all the above posts, I totally agree that the ballet world is in disarray.  There have been certain historical events which have impinged greatly on job prospects.  

 

After the Second World War the rebuilding of theatres was given priority in many cities to provide a return to Civilization and Civic order.  However, particularly in Germany there was not a pool of dancers trained at local ballet schools, so this is when many British and Commonwealth trained dancers spread across Europe.

 

Mid 1970s UK joined the Common Market - which meant that all other member Nationalities had to be accepted and preference could not be given in UK to British nationals (or Commonwealth nationals with British connection.)  

 

Then about 10 years ago there was a major economic downturn throughout Europe.  Many companies closed or downsized to Contemporary groups.  So, fewer jobs coincided with the rise BA Hons degrees funded by Student loans in UK, allowing many more dancers to embark on professional training.

 

A very broad brush overview, I know, but I would be interested to hear others comments.

 

 

[Picturesinthefirelight]

27 minutes ago, Jane said:

 

 

We knew auditioning would be difficult but I was shocked at how little support there was from school and the staff. No guidance on best places to audition for each individual dancer’s style and strength. Very little effort to get their graduates seen in the last few years of school. 

 

Gosh, that’s such a contrast to the general dance & musical theatre colleges where pretty much the entire third year seems to be about getting seen by agents and casting directors. 

[sarahw]

It's grim 😥😥

[meadowblythe]

 

Some places give excellent support to their final year students,  pointing out suitable opportunities and giving hard but fair advice.  I appreciate not all - but equally not all are disinterested.

 

t's not all grim - if you are prepared to work in a less glamorous or prestigious company, in Eastern Europe there are opportunities, and many companies have a predominantly classical repertoire. Dancers are respected and theatres are subsidised.  Yes the salaries are low, but so are the living costs.  Even new graduates make enough to live on without a hand out, if they are realistic about accommodation.  It's when you can come home, or need to buy flights, there are problems.    

 

  

[Canary]

Meadowblythe are you able to guide me as to which vocational ballet schools give ‘excellent support’ to their final year students for classical ballet please. 

 

[Anon2]

1 hour ago, meadowblythe said:

 

Some places give excellent support to their final year students,  pointing out suitable opportunities and giving hard but fair advice.  I appreciate not all - but equally not all are disinterested.

 

t's not all grim - if you are prepared to work in a less glamorous or prestigious company, in Eastern Europe there are opportunities, and many companies have a predominantly classical repertoire. Dancers are respected and theatres are subsidised.  Yes the salaries are low, but so are the living costs.  Even new graduates make enough to live on without a hand out, if they are realistic about accommodation.  It's when you can come home, or need to buy flights, there are problems.    

 

  

My Dd and her peers auditioned at numerous Eastern Europe companies without success. One dancer from her cohort secured a month by month contract but that was through a contact not an open audition. 

The graduate year group prior to my Dds year seemed to have the same problems as her year. Prior to this we noticed most grads got their first contract in Eastern Europe.  

 

At some auditions Dd attended they were told there were no vacancies but the company had to hold auditions. Cynically Dd always believed that this was the case because the companies were partially funded by local government and having a few hundred dancers turn up in town for auditions was a huge boost for the local economy. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Jane
To add final comment

[Sophoife]

15 hours ago, Jan McNulty said:

 

I always understood that it was British and Commonwealth?

 

Seems almost frivolous to continue this line after the disrespectful and dehumanising experiences enumerated above, but of course Jan you're right. However when I said "furriners" I meant Persons From Abroad e.g. Spain or Italy, and there were certainly students from those countries in the 1950s senior school, acquiring "polish" in order to return home and embark upon a professional career. 

 

Was it when Britain entered the Common Market that "furriners" began to be accepted into the Royal Ballet companies?

Edited March 18, 2019 by Sophoife
Changed a couple of words

[TwoLeftFeet]

Meadowblythe, I also would be very interested in hearing your take on the schools that provide the best guidance as we are beginning our search for an upper school.

 

Jane, I'd love to know what school your DC attended.

 

So many red flags all pointing to a career that involves a lot of struggling to even be seen.  Its getting harder and harder the more I read to know what the right decision to make is, however, in saying that, its better to go in with your eyes open.  Thank goodness for this forum and for all who post their experiences good and bad so that those coming up behind know full well what to expect.

[meadowblythe]

I only have experience of one upper school - happy to discuss via PM. 

 

The only point I was making was it is not universally bleak even for those who have never entered a competition or won any prizes.

[DD Driver]

On 18/03/2019 at 02:35, Sadielou said:

We are on the audition circuit at the moment and it is indeed very expensive, brutal and toxic. Most European companies will only audition students of specific heights, boys under 5'11 are generally not even seen regardless of talent, same goes for girls that are too small, seems that 5"5 is the desired height, but the poor girls get it at both ends as they can't be too tall either. It would appear from our recent experiences that height is now more important than talent !  If you get over the height  hurdle and receive an invite to audition, it is in most cases a cattle market. With students (even those from the top schools) being routed out before the end of the classical class. Most companies are now asking for dance photos and videos of classical class and solos, as a pre assessment, presumably as not to waste the time of students that are an obvious non fit for their company. However from what we have witnessed over the past few weeks it would appear that most of these company's hadn't given these videos a second glance. It has been bad enough for us, residing in Europe, but others travelled from much further a field, only to be told goodbye and thank you after only half an hour of class. Three times one of my DC having survived to the end of a full days audition - classical class, pas de deux,  repertoire, has been told that he is too classical as the company in question would only be doing Contemporary rep for the forseeable future. Surely this could have been stated on the audition notice, and in the case of my DC it should have been very obvious from his audition video that he is a  very classical dancer. That is frustrating enough, but having survived to the end of auditions for two of the most prestigious German companies, one said that they hadn't decided wether they wanted, classical or contemporary dancers or those that could do both (why hold an audition until you know what you are auditioning for), and the other company's director didn't look up from his phone throughout the whole process, Both company's told those that made it to the end of the audition day  - 4 cuts in all, that they would email with news good or bad, within two weeks - 6 weeks later we are still waiting, along with the others that my DC knew from those auditions. After 3 weeks my DC emailed both companies to ask for news and one of the company's as to wether it would be worth re auditioning (as this company had started advertising another batch of auditions) but never heard another word from either one. One of our UK companies told all auditionees as they walked into the studio on audition day, that they had no contracts but for grant purposes had to hold annual auditions - Disgusting behaviour !  Not one company audition notice states the terms of the contracts available so in the main auditionees are competing for a job with no knowledge of what they are actually auditioning for or if the job in question even pays. The elation of being offered a contract can soon wear thin when you find out that the only contracts available are for apprenticeships and the pay amounts to 300 euros a month ! This seems to be happening more and more. Even one of the better known  junior companies only offers first year members 1100 euros a month, hardly enough to survive on in a major city, unless you have rich parents. Quite frankly it is little more than exploitation on behalf of these company's, a cheap and easy way to fill their ranks, None of the big European company's can perform the well known classical ballets without junior company / trainees and affiliated school students to swell their ranks. The school students (although of course gaining valuable experience) are usually paid zilch - this is the case at Het Nationale and the RB and no doubt many other companies. In my day the RBS students were paid by performance, even for walk on roles - So much for improvements ! It would just be nice if some of these companies could at least show a little bit of respect to the dancers that travel so far and work so hard and stop the exploitation of hard working students. I guess what I am trying to say, is that the worry surrounding schools, assessments and training is just the beginning, as the stress and the considerable financial strain seems to be never ending. It is definitely, definitely not for the faint hearted.

 

Thank you Sadielou for the report from the trenches!  I wish your DC all the best.

 

I found the topic: Investment in the Doing Dance forum helpful after reading the posts in this thread.  Really, ballet training is a very dodgy investment. 

It is better for me to view this training as a 'lifestyle' that we have chosen.  It must be positive for her 'overall' development if we continue to pursue this and finance it.  That is the test not whether she has a career in it. That is how I want to  approach this journey based on what I am learning.   Others will see things differently.

 

If my non-dancing DD goes to a job/internship interview and she  is told "there is no job" or she is disrespected then I would expect her to stick it out for the experience OR feel free to walk out the door.  This is something I wish to instill in my dancing DD too.  

Edited March 19, 2019 by DD Driver

[Dancermum2003]

As Year 11 at White Lodge now know if they have places at Upper School will some sort of review take place of the training? Do you think the percentage that carry on at RBS is ever looked at by staff and considered? 

Edited March 19, 2019 by Dancermum2003

[sarahw]

You would hope they do review the situation but as the same issue (sadly) happens every year I have to assume the powers that be are not interested in training British dancers....☹️

[sarahw]

I also wonder are Y11 students and their parents adequately counselled about their chances and encouraged/supported adequately to apply elsewhere? I ask this because of the surprise there seems to be each year about low continuation rates?

[Ruby Foo]

On 13/03/2019 at 22:37, balletcoach said:

 

 

25 minutes ago, sarahw said:

I also wonder are Y11 students and their parents adequately counselled about their chances and encouraged/supported adequately to apply elsewhere? I ask this because of the surprise there seems to be each year about low continuation rates?

I think the students get support with their applications/ photos / videos and solos to apply to other schools. They are supported in the time off they need to attend auditions. Lower down the school, help is given for summer schools if photos/video is needed or a solo, which is more than can be said of some other vocational schools.

However, the summer school needs to be one approved by rbs.

Can’t comment on counselling.

[Harwel]

So 5 WL girls are through to upper school. Sounds similar to other years. Don’t know about the boys. 

[junedancer]

40 minutes ago, Harwel said:

So 5 WL girls are through to upper school. Sounds similar to other years. Don’t know about the boys. 

 

Do you know when they all started at WL?

 

Any news of where the other girls have offers from?

Edited March 19, 2019 by junedancer
Added a further question

[Marianne]

27 minutes ago, Harwel said:

So 5 WL girls are through to upper school. Sounds similar to other years. Don’t know about the boys. 

 

I think it’s about double that for the boys. Most of them through to upper school. Well done to all of them and hope the others have success elsewhere soon. 

[tutugirl]

I may be wrong ! But I think only 2 of the 5 girls started in year 7 .

[junedancer]

28 minutes ago, tutugirl said:

I may be wrong ! But I think only 2 of the 5 girls started in year 7 .

 

This must be disheartening for those at WL, but hopefully the WL training puts them on a good place to audition successfully elsewhere.

 

I wonder why this is more of an issue for the girls than the boys other than generally there will be more girls in training than boys.

 

We suppose we also need to remember that there are a number who leave of their own volition for all manner of reasons.

 

It would be nice to see places being offered to those who have trained elsewhere in the UK.  Any news on other offers?

[Pas de Quatre]

There have always been a number of WL girls who change tack if not offered US, and go to Laines, Birds etc. for a more West End career.