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British training at Lower and Upper Schools


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1 hour ago, meadowblythe said:

  I do remember feeling from quite early on that two or three were being seriously trained, the rest were paying the electricity bill.

 

 

Sadly I think this is all too true and not confined to the very top schools either. If schools were judged by how well they trained/treated all their students as opposed to a select few who either win things and/or are very photogenic, it would be a very different picture.

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Presumably a 14 or 15 year old at upper school will be doing a distance learning course on an unsupervised basis (if indeed they are studying anything) and not attempting A levels with the other students.....

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How very upsetting & worrying some of these posts are & I feel so sorry for the students & parents involved . Our DS is at vocational school and loves his training & the teachers - both dance & academic. He has had his difficulties though, more centred around the boarding aspect of things . Lack of privacy, constant noise & difficult characters to deal with on a 24hr basis. For boarders - there is simply no escape and our DS absolutely yearns for peace & quiet & privacy in the little time they get away from the pressures of vocational schooling. We often have the discussion with our DS regarding his well-being & his happiness etc including his physical & mental health. We have always tried to take the pressure off him by saying - at any stage , if you are not happy for whatever reason & you can't see a resolution - you can simply come home & re-evaluate everything with our help & support. I've learnt from the amazing advice on this forum from other parents whom have had to deal with problems - it has made us more aware &  constantly watchful ..... we  wouldn't hesitate to bring our son out of the system if we had to .

 I will add - our DS on the whole has had really good support from his school over non dancing related issues. He loves all of the teachers, has progressed so much both academically & with his vocational training - so we count ourselves very lucky listening to some other experiences. 

My advice to prospective parents of year 7's is to keep listening to your child....... realise from the start it is not an easy journey for them or yourselves ...... if their  heart is in continuing to dance, then support them the best you can, but equally be prepared to remove them from the system if they become continually unhappy..... there are always other options in life !! Likewise - don't automatically be put off sending your child to a vocational school - they may love it & thrive. I suppose there are always going to be fantastic , good, bad & downright awful experiences to be considered. 

I'd like to thank all the parents for sharing their experiences & knowledge of vocational training . It is vital for prospective parents or even fairly inexperienced parents like ourselves (with regard to ballet training ) to gain advice & awareness regarding the ups & downs , so we can help to steer our children along this journey - if that's what they wish . 😊

 

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31 minutes ago, Ribbons said:

Most of the students that keep getting the opportunities seem to have won a full scholarship via Prix or one of the other big competitions. Some I would guess would be on sponsorship. 

 

I know that the Austrailian girl who's joining upper school next Sept (who's only 14) is going there on a full scholarship. 

But how much are the scholarships worth? What I mean is, if the fees for a UK student are £30,000 a year, are international students charged more, like they are at universities? 

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10 minutes ago, Leapinglizards said:

I’ve been reading this with dismay . Trying to focus on the positive stories . Please do keep them coming . 

 

Welcome to the forum, Leapinglizards.  As I said earlier, there will be many people with positive stories but of course they may not be members of this Forum.  The very nature of the ballet world means that only a very few students will progress through their training untroubled, into a reputable upper school and on into a good company.  It has ever been this way and until as many jobs are available as there are graduates, it will doubtless continue.  

 

BUT who knows; the next Cuthbertson/Hayward/Naghdi/Watson could be just around the corner.  It does happen for the chosen few.  There are those who want to branch off into Musical Theatre or Commercial, work at Disneyland or on a cruise ship.  Those dancers who get paid a decent wage doing what they love are all successful.   There are so many positive stories, whether we hear them here or not.  Now though you can weigh up the positives and the negative experiences that people have had, and hopefully that will help.  

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2 hours ago, Flora said:

Besides care of existing students it is worrying that all the artistic directors are increasingly trotting the globe to search for other people’s work. I would query what value is really being added by a school taking students who are basically already company ready and which the top companies will have no issue finding anyway if they are so minded. I know of international students who saw US as an audition for the company. They were not going for anything other than a bit of final polish and a self marketing exercise. This is really disheartening for the ex yr 11 home grown students who quite frankly are often streets behind and very disheartening too for other UK students at finals (of which my DD was one) knowing that realistically so many places at the top schools would be allocated in this way. I also struggle with the fact that 14 and 15 year olds are increasingly taken into US. To me this in itself is an acknowledgment the training in Yr 10 and 11 is for students who are already well behind.

 

I would urge parents going through  the yr 7 audition process not to be fooled by brand names and assume that having a child at any of the lower schools will set them up with exactly what they need and be a ticket to top intensive classical training at Yr 12. It really isn’t. 

 

 

I couldn't agree more. The biggest competition out there now seems to be between the Directors of the big worldwide schools as to who can snatch the best talent. They are all leaving their own students behind, whilst globe trotting to the various YAGP venues. Just recently the Director of the RBS has taught master classes and judged the YAGP competitions in Australia, Japan, China, Paris, Barcelona and will be at the NY finals in April not mention a recruiting stint at the Prix de Lausanne. If you look at the scholarship page on the YAGP website you can see which school has handed out scholarships and to who (and these are only the semi finals, finals still to come). Makes depressing reading. The Paris winner will be attending RBS US at just 14 yrs of age, so disheartening for those current Yr 9 students slogging away at WL. And yes of course these international students are looking at the bigger picture, fast track entrance to a top company., most are basically company ready  when they arrive.  Instead of chasing the finished article, why are these directors not recruiting world class teachers to teach the talent they already have. Surely it would be so much more satisfying to be able to show a graduating class of students that you can honestly say that you as a school have personally trained and nurtured since yr 7. 

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I read an article about adolescent mental health a while ago. It was about cyber bullying actually, and how it infiltrates all aspects of a child's life, but I think it's relevant here. Basically the theory was that there are 3  main "domains" of a typical child's life - home, school and extra curricular interests. If there is a problem in one domain but the child is safe and happy in the other 2 they are likely to cope fairly well, but less so if 2 domains are damaged and unlikely to cope if all 3 are difficult or unsupportive. It struck me that for children at vocational school, all 3 domains are effectively one (though they do have a fourth domain of course - real home. )

Essentially for big chunks of the year there's no escape. Even if everyone gets along that can feel very claustrophobic, but if not, it's a disaster waiting to happen. These children and young adults are under huge pressure in a very artificial environment. To manage that situation successfully I think you need extremely skilled and empathetic adults involved and it seems that they are few and far between. 

I don't know what the answer is, but I do think that discussing it frankly and openly is a good start. The solution to any problem starts with acknowledging that it exists. 

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That makes a lot of sense.    Whilst only anecdotal, my son was a different child at Hammond to his previous school - he put that down to the fact that they could support each other a lot better because there was a huge variety of focus even within the dance students.  One was a brilliant tapper, another although took dance was really academic,  another loved musical theatre and was a brilliant singer as well as dancer ..

 

Picking up on the point of a claustrophobic atmosphere, he loved the fact they left the school site a night, and had a distinct "day time" and "night time" environment.  And he went in year 10, and had a lot more freedom.

 

This is only our  experience.  For us there's no point dwelling too much on "if only .."  and I would still send him to vocational school again.  For those going into the "system," just be aware of the pressures and possible pitfalls as well as very definite plusses.

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For what its worth, I also think that better governance and oversight of schools is needed. Having a 'mental health nurse' or a 'personal tutor;' these are not things that should be optional and down to the preferences of the school. In an ideal world, all vocational schools would have an active governing body, that included representation by staff, parents and students. Like the governing body of any state school, it would be there to act as a 'critical friend' and ensure that the schools policies and practices kept pace with the outside world and that issues were properly addressed. It would also ensure real accountability of the school and its teaching faculty for the wellbeing of its students. It would not seem unreasonable to subject those institutions offering degree courses to the same Gold/Silver/Bronze teaching assessment that regular universities are now subjected to. This, coupled with regular and rigorous Inspections, might go some way towards addressing some of the issues that people have been brave enough to share on this thread. For me the real tragedy is the sheer waste of young talent and parental devotion.

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2 hours ago, Sadielou said:

I couldn't agree more. The biggest competition out there now seems to be between the Directors of the big worldwide schools as to who can snatch the best talent. They are all leaving their own students behind, whilst globe trotting to the various YAGP venues. Just recently the Director of the RBS has taught master classes and judged the YAGP competitions in Australia, Japan, China, Paris, Barcelona and will be at the NY finals in April not mention a recruiting stint at the Prix de Lausanne. If you look at the scholarship page on the YAGP website you can see which school has handed out scholarships and to who (and these are only the semi finals, finals still to come). Makes depressing reading. The Paris winner will be attending RBS US at just 14 yrs of age, so disheartening for those current Yr 9 students slogging away at WL. And yes of course these international students are looking at the bigger picture, fast track entrance to a top company., most are basically company ready  when they arrive.  Instead of chasing the finished article, why are these directors not recruiting world class teachers to teach the talent they already have. Surely it would be so much more satisfying to be able to show a graduating class of students that you can honestly say that you as a school have personally trained and nurtured since yr 7. 

 

Also a lot of competition winners are technically brilliant but not necessarily artistically developed. Seems such a shame that some of the British students with beautiful artistry are overlooked due to being behind the curve technically. However I blame company ADs who still seem to place a higher and higher value on tricks and technical ability than true artistry. People keep saying the tide is turning again but I really don’t see any real evidence of this.

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Because many children at vocational schools are from families who have no boarding experience I think there is a lot of potential for this to go wrong as it's hard to pre-empt problems you don't know the existence of. 

The questions I would ask now were we doing it again are:

 

Staffing levels in boarding house

Turnover rate of boarding staff (very important)

How many kids in a room esp Y10/11

Quiet study space in boarding house

Supervision of prep (ie staff not involved in other responsibilities at same time)

How they police bed times and quiet after lights out

Actual number of activities /outings arranged at weekends 

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Hi

FIrst time posting-but felt I could add to this post

my dd went to a vocational school, she really enjoyed it both for the love of dance and she was very good academically-she thrived 

Although the boarding house we felt was ‘tired’ she loved staying there and the pastoral care excellent. She liked the fact the boarding house was seperate and near to town.

She joined Central school of Ballet at 16

and during her time had a major illness diagnosed

Central were very supportive-a counsellor was arranged to help her and she completed  her 3 years. (She was not just assessed out)

Dd continued to dance professionally until recently

She never regretted her decision to go to vocational school-the relational ships she formed are life long and the experience made her confident and independant

As parents we also have not regretted our decision

I would say vocational school is not for every child-childrens personalities play a major part-if your child is not happy or thriving -change schools or go to the many fab associate programmes and try again at a later stage

 

 

 

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https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/a-step-in-the-wrong-direction-1250670.html%3famp

 

although an old article an interesting and very accurate description of how I felt this school treated my dd during her years there. After coming away from this environment she is a lot more confident in herself and is thriving and currently auditioning for us this week I think the saying is never judge a book by its cover or in this case never judge a school by its name always look further into personal experiences 

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1 hour ago, Ballet4ever said:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/a-step-in-the-wrong-direction-1250670.html%3famp

 

although an old article an interesting and very accurate description of how I felt this school treated my dd during her years there. After coming away from this environment she is a lot more confident in herself and is thriving and currently auditioning for us this week I think the saying is never judge a book by its cover or in this case never judge a school by its name always look further into personal experiences 

 

Good luck to your dd Ballet4ever 

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She had some very difficult times and at one point I was told by a house parent ‘they all have problems but unless the child makes a fuss and noise it is easier to ignore’.

 

Not acceptable.

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Regarding the fact that only 2 girls who have been at WL from year 7 have been accepted to US (alongside 2 WL girls who started in Y11 and 2 other WL girls), do we know how many WL girls who started in year 7 are still at the school, and out of those, how many actually wanted an US place? I seem to say the same thing every year when this topic comes up, but the number might not be as bad as it seems, especially since we know a higher number of boys have been given places in US. There is a fairly high rate of attrition throughout the lower school with injuries, assessing out and students simply deciding that dance or the school are not for them, and only a small number of students to begin with. If there were 12 girls who started in Y7, it is almost certainly not the case that the same 12 are vying for US places. Some probably dropped out before and of those remaining, they might not all have wanted an US place.

 

On the subject of the standard of training at UK lower schools in general, the UK does have a bit of a reputation, justifiably so in my opinion, to spend a lot of time on perfecting movements before progressing to more advanced work. Some posters have mentioned the balance between Dance and academic study, suggesting that foreign schools spend more time on dance at the expense of academic preparation. Obviously all schools differ in this but I do feel that a higher standard could be achieved dance-wise in the UK without any change in the amount of time spent in the studio by starting to teach more advanced work at a younger age instead of spending so long perfecting the basics.

Lastly, I would like to comment on people's different reports, both positive and negative about their time at vocational school. I attended a vocational school in Europe and a few years after graduating, got back in touch with a girl I had been close friends with during my time there. We lived in the same dorm, had mostly the same friends and all the same teachers (but were in different classes) but our feelings about our time at the school could not be more different. I remember hard times, but have only happy memories and still consider my time at the school to be the best of my life. My friend still felt traumatised by her experience of the school. My point is that two people living through the same thing can experience it differently depending on their personality, so what might bother some, would not bother another. That is not to suggest that there does not need to be a great deal more mental health support in vocational schools. I have no personal experience of UK schools but from others' accounts there does seem to be a huge need for greater support as well as a change in the "beyond reproach" attitude that some of the schools have.

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In terms of training, I note Steven McRae's comments in his Instagram Q&A this week.  He sees dancers as ARTISTS however believes that they need to treat their bodies as if they are athletes. 

 

Some very young dancers (e.g. 10yrs  and up) are training like aspiring athletes.  They are doing for example, a competitive rhythmic gymnastics program alongside an intensive ballet program.  Another approach is going semi-full-time at an early age.  You can view the schedule at the Master Ballet Academy in Arizona (home of some young YAGP winners).  A young dancer does the after school program plus (by audition) an Intermediate Pre-Pro schedule that means 3 half-days away from school.    http://www.masterballetacademy.com/class-schedule/.  The intensity of this approach may exceed recommended hours in order to avoid injury.  It is survival of the fittest!  I know in artistic gymnastics that, from my daughter's experience as a 9 yr old, they tried to avoid injuries by slowly adding hours over time and in a 3 hour session there was half an hour of warm up and then half an hour of warm down.

 

As well as injuries, some will be concerned about the impact on academics.  Some schools in the US and Australia etc will allow hours away from classes for the pursuit of Elite Sports or Art.  The child must show that they are still getting their school work done. Alternatively, there is homeschooling and Distance Education which are more established and supported in some countries than others.  It is a luxury but when done well, can lead to academic extension for the child. 

 

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Has ballet ever been 'pitched' for a new sport in the Olympics? It seems increasingly to be going down the path of individual virtuosity & athleticism being the most highly prized attributes for dancers that there might as well be an international platform for this level of competition.

But I do question whether these 'sports stars' will be the same who will become the stars of a full classical repertoire with it's artistry, emotional engagement & team work needed for a story to be told....

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well, that's an eye opener!

Just a quick look at website & yes, it does look like UK is behind the curve in this.....there seemed to be in addition to US locations for competitions where scholarships are awarded, another 7 international locations; 2 in Europe - Barcelona & Paris. Where's London or Birmingham? I see in each of the 7 competitions (& I dare say from the US locations too) several places either short or long term are offered to train at RBS.....yet looking quickly through at recipients to all the various schools from these 7 locations, I think I spotted just 2 UK girls & 1 UK boy.....Are Brits just not entering or are they substandard? Does it require schools to send them or for them to win preliminary rounds? & who funds the no doubt huge costs to get there to participate?

This seems parallel to classical music competitions.....I had no idea of anything other that he Prix de Lausanne.....yep, I have much to learn :o

 

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On 18/03/2018 at 13:09, Anna C said:

 

 

5 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

 I see in each of the 7 competitions (& I dare say from the US locations too) several places either short or long term are offered to train at RBS.....yet looking quickly through at recipients to all the various schools from these 7 locations, I think I spotted just 2 UK girls & 1 UK boy.....Are Brits just not entering or are they substandard? Does it require schools to send them or for them to win preliminary rounds?

 

 

I know of a British girl recently who was at one of our vocational schools, had tried another school unsusessfully on a number of occasions. Decided to enter Paris YAGP (own expense, obtained private coaching from one of our top recently retired RB ballerinas - nothing to do with the school she attended).  Won a prize at the competition and then miraculously was immediately offered a place at the school she previously wasn’t able to get into (the school in question only seeing her a few months before hand!). Was she any different, greatly improved, changed physique? No of course not, just more attractive because she’d won a high profile competition! 

 

In my experience and hearing from past entrants of various high profile competitions these competitors can be working on their solos for about 2 years in intensive, pre selected programmes for the sole purpose of entering those competitions. No British school would devote that time and effort into it and I don’t think they should - I would prefer a well rounded dancer/human being.  We are in the business of developing children into happy, successful adults not creating automated, brow beaten clones who can perform a perfect 3 minute solo for a market of under paid, under appreciated artists.  

 

I for one do not want to see our ballet training turn into a competition fest.  However I strongly object to the ADs going and selecting these said students but don’t value their own, home grown talent and give them the chance to develop a bit later.  The system is rotten at the core.  It leads to lazy teaching, reliant on the fact the teachers were professional dancers but are in fact not great teachers.  They swam about as if they are untouchable and berate concerned parents who don’t know any better yet are not good enough at their job.  

 

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5 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

well, that's an eye opener!

Just a quick look at website & yes, it does look like UK is behind the curve in this.....there seemed to be in addition to US locations for competitions where scholarships are awarded, another 7 international locations; 2 in Europe - Barcelona & Paris. Where's London or Birmingham? I see in each of the 7 competitions (& I dare say from the US locations too) several places either short or long term are offered to train at RBS.....yet looking quickly through at recipients to all the various schools from these 7 locations, I think I spotted just 2 UK girls & 1 UK boy.....Are Brits just not entering or are they substandard? Does it require schools to send them or for them to win preliminary rounds? & who funds the no doubt huge costs to get there to participate?

This seems parallel to classical music competitions.....I had no idea of anything other that he Prix de Lausanne.....yep, I have much to learn :o

 

 

My dd won a scholarship to attend the YAGP semi final in Paris last November from the Cecchetti International Ballet Competition in Florence. We had only heard of it from the documentary 𝙵irst Position. She went for the performance experience and is now one of only 3 UK girls attending the finals in New York in 3 weeks time. The final list of competitors came out yesterday. This will be Dds third international competition outing. It has been an amazing experience dancing with others from all over the world in masterclasses. Very expensive though 😓

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8 minutes ago, Harwel said:

 

In my experience and hearing from past entrants of various high profile competitions these competitors can be working on their solos for about 2 years in intensive, pre selected programmes for the sole purpose of entering those competitions. No British school would devote that time and effort into it and I don’t think they should - I would prefer a well rounded dancer/human being.  We are in the business of developing children into happy, successful adults not creating automated, brow beaten clones who can perform a perfect 3 minute solo for a market of under paid, under appreciated artists.  

 

Dds British school has not prepared her for the competition. Not one private coaching class. Just her normal training and the solo she danced in her school competition. She hasn’t done bad on that though 😂

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6 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

So how come Japan & other places been mentioned under same umbrella?

 

 

6 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

well, that's an eye opener!

Just a quick look at website & yes, it does look like UK is behind the curve in this.....there seemed to be in addition to US locations for competitions where scholarships are awarded, another 7 international locations; 2 in Europe - Barcelona & Paris. Where's London or Birmingham? 

 

 

UK candidates, as well as other international candidates from countries who do not hold preliminary rounds, travel to one of the countries that does. It's expensive, but worth it if you end up with a scholarship to a top school or a professional contract.

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1 hour ago, Harwel said:

 

 

I know of a British girl recently who was at one of our vocational schools, had tried another school unsusessfully on a number of occasions. Decided to enter Paris YAGP (own expense, obtained private coaching from one of our top recently retired RB ballerinas - nothing to do with the school she attended).  Won a prize at the competition and then miraculously was immediately offered a place at the school she previously wasn’t able to get into (the school in question only seeing her a few months before hand!). Was she any different, greatly improved, changed physique? No of course not, just more attractive because she’d won a high profile competition! 

 

In my experience and hearing from past entrants of various high profile competitions these competitors can be working on their solos for about 2 years in intensive, pre selected programmes for the sole purpose of entering those competitions. No British school would devote that time and effort into it and I don’t think they should - I would prefer a well rounded dancer/human being.  We are in the business of developing children into happy, successful adults not creating automated, brow beaten clones who can perform a perfect 3 minute solo for a market of under paid, under appreciated artists.  

 

I for one do not want to see our ballet training turn into a competition fest.  However I strongly object to the ADs going and selecting these said students but don’t value their own, home grown talent and give them the chance to develop a bit later.  The system is rotten at the core.  It leads to lazy teaching, reliant on the fact the teachers were professional dancers but are in fact not great teachers.  They swam about as if they are untouchable and berate concerned parents who don’t know any better yet are not good enough at their job.  

 

 I know who you are referring to as she was at my nieces school. She didn’t win - she was placed in the top 12. She was also invited to New York finals but the school she moved to wouldn’t allow it. I’m not sure it was the competition that got her in. I think the problem is the same staff sitting on audition panels Year in Year out. If they don’t like you in Year seven they are unlikely to like you in Year ten! And this particular entrant was offered places all over the world - without winning. So are the competitions the exposure our dancers need?

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1 hour ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

 

My dd won a scholarship to attend the YAGP semi final in Paris last November from the Cecchetti International Ballet Competition in Florence. We had only heard of it from the documentary 𝙵irst Position. She went for the performance experience and is now one of only 3 UK girls attending the finals in New York in 3 weeks time. The final list of competitors came out yesterday. This will be Dds third international competition outing. It has been an amazing experience dancing with others from all over the world in masterclasses. Very expensive though 😓

Huge congratulations to your dd cdr- although I dread to think of the cost ...

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