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British training at Lower and Upper Schools


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18 minutes ago, Karen said:

This was also the case last year and all were offered funding too. (I understand that school had more funding allocated from DfE last year due to it not being allocated elsewhere as anticipated, so don’t know what the impact might be this year) 

 

Our year group is a lot bigger than yours was so I’m not sure if there will be enough for everyone or not. 

 

I heard on the grapevine that at least one MT college lost their funding last year so I wonder if that’s where the extra came from.  

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6 minutes ago, Jane said:

One of the problems my dd and her peers complained of over the years was that the medical centre was never open at times convienent to them as students so I hope for the sake of the current students this has improved. 

It’s open until 8 on weekday evenings and until 2 (I think!) on Saturdays, so reasonably accessible?

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16 minutes ago, Jane said:

One of the problems my dd and her peers complained of over the years was that the medical centre was never open at times convienent to them as students so I hope for the sake of the current students this has improved. 

 

No it hasn’t 😔

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56 minutes ago, Jane said:

I’m reading this thread wondering why I didn’t put my foot down and insist my dd leave vocational lower school. She had some very difficult times and at one point I was told by a house parent ‘they all have problems but unless the child makes a fuss and noise it is easier to ignore’. The quiet child suffering doesn’t impact on the rest of the house as a crying, dramatic one does. Unfortunately for the management I was less easy to ignore. Some problems were resolved but it took a lot of determination and perseverance and if I worked full time I don’t know that I would have had the energy to keep fighting. Always my dd insisted she want to give it one more term or next year would be better because it was a different teacher and after all it was all she wanted to do. 

 

We looked at European sixth forms but naively believed information feed to us by the senior management about their new plans for the sixth form training and decided that it was a case of better the devil you know ...

Im sorry to say I regret letting my dd begin this journey. We are slowly getting back our daughter and she is beginning to enjoy life, make proper friends and not worry about what others think of her constantly. Her confidence and self esteem has grown in the few months she has stepped back from dance. 

I can identify with this.  My DD wanted to leave at Easter in her first year.  The Director at the time persuaded us that we had no option for her to stay...that I would have to pay the full fees for the rest of the year if she didn't at least complete the year and threw in that DD had a promising career ahead of her.  Then we were in a cycle of, next year the teacher might be better, student relationships more healthy, I've started so I'll finish etc...damage done during this time is immeasurable.   

 

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I can’t yet begin to reflect on our vocational journey as we are still on the roller coaster. I’m not as brave as some of you parents at sharing your experiences. It’s reasuring, in not a good way, that we are not alone in our struggles. I firmly believe that very few children go through the ballet training system unscathed. I feel very upset just writing this but I’m so glad the moderators have let those strong enough to share their experiences do so. Thank you x

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20 minutes ago, Farawaydancer said:

It’s open until 8 on weekday evenings and until 2 (I think!) on Saturdays, so reasonably accessible?

It always said that on paperwork but the reality didn’t match that in all the years my dd there. And a number of times I tried to ‘call in’ when I went to visit on Saturdays with no success. 

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Dancermum2003 - we understand completely - I sincerely hope your niece gets the help she needs and a new future emerges for her. We were also too broken and exhausted to go in all guns blazing at the time. A lot of comments have been about upper schools so I just wanted to add that I was talking about a lower school (WL) where children are 12/13 when this is happening to them. Totally unacceptable and seemingly untouchable ( even with the strength of balletdadblog) . It is hard to imagine the effects of this until it happens to you.  My advice would be do not be afraid to remove your child immediately if you feel it is necessary. Cost implications can be dealt with legally. 

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53 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

I have to say it’s very re-assuring to read so many positive comments about dd’s School (& where she is hoping to stay for seniors) from other parents especially as she decided not to audition for some of the bigger names. 

I had two at this school and our experience of pastoral care, particularly in the boarding house, was abysmal.  One day when my DD was unable to attend school in great distress, she was left all morning on her own with only a cleaner in the house.  I was genuinely concerned that she wouldn't survive the morning.

 

Other DD experienced bullying behaviour for two years with nothing done, even though I had made boarding staff aware.  In fact when I had a meeting, before deciding to change schools, the dance staff were supportive as well as the Head but the boarding staff praised the bullies exemplary behaviour in the boarding house and made us out to be liars.  Counselling was offered but no support in the boarding house?!  DD's are Much happier now.   

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In retrospect I agree Windover and I’ve often wondered if the fees issue could be dealt with by a medical letter explaining that your child is being made ill by the environment. Be a strong school that chased the parents of an ill child for the full years fees. 

 

I think a lot of the comments, ours included relate to both lower and upper schools as I recognise the posters. 

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Besides care of existing students it is worrying that all the artistic directors are increasingly trotting the globe to search for other people’s work. I would query what value is really being added by a school taking students who are basically already company ready and which the top companies will have no issue finding anyway if they are so minded. I know of international students who saw US as an audition for the company. They were not going for anything other than a bit of final polish and a self marketing exercise. This is really disheartening for the ex yr 11 home grown students who quite frankly are often streets behind and very disheartening too for other UK students at finals (of which my DD was one) knowing that realistically so many places at the top schools would be allocated in this way. I also struggle with the fact that 14 and 15 year olds are increasingly taken into US. To me this in itself is an acknowledgment the training in Yr 10 and 11 is for students who are already well behind.

 

I would urge parents going through  the yr 7 audition process not to be fooled by brand names and assume that having a child at any of the lower schools will set them up with exactly what they need and be a ticket to top intensive classical training at Yr 12. It really isn’t. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Jane said:

In retrospect I agree Windover and I’ve often wondered if the fees issue could be dealt with by a medical letter explaining that your child is being made ill by the environment. Be a strong school that chased the parents of an ill child for the full years fees. 

 

I think a lot of the comments, ours included relate to both lower and upper schools as I recognise the posters. 

 

I'm not sure "strong" is the word I'd use....were you being polite, Jane? :)

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We are still in the system and I can not comment in detail.  Though I believe pastoral care at my ds school has been first class (certainly in our experience). Although, in his first year there, it later transpired that he had been bullied by the head of house (luckily this person left after 2 terms I believe - I hope as other pastoral staff saw his true nature).  

 

Ds still rehabing after surgery and is understandably struggling mentally with getting back into dance, worries that he is really fixed and terrified he will damage himself again.  It appears he is having no outside pressure to push himself - thank goodness- and is allowed to pretty much pick and choose what he knows he can do. Going to Pilates, Physio, gym and his own ballet barre. Tricky time and only time will tell if the support at school

is enough.  As I said he is struggling and I worry about him but he will not let me approach school as fearful it will somehow impact him negatively. I will know more once I have had him home for Easter so he has time to truly open up. 

 

As I have said in this forum before, I have a complete love hate relationship with ballet and there is a great deal wrong with a lot of the teaching in this country, and I don’t just mean vocational training either.  We have also experienced some truly awful teachers, damaging young people’s mental health way before they hit vocational age. 

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7 minutes ago, Flora said:

Besides care of existing students it is worrying that all the artistic directors are increasingly trotting the globe to search for other people’s work. I would query what value is really being added by a school taking students who are basically already company ready and which the top companies will have no issue finding anyway if they are so minded. I know of international students who saw US as an audition for the company. They were not going for anything other than a bit of final polish and a self marketing exercise. This is really disheartening for the ex yr 11 home grown students who quite frankly are often streets behind and very disheartening too for other UK students at finals (of which my DD was one) knowing that realistically so many places at the top schools would be allocated in this way. I also struggle with the fact that 14 and 15 year olds are increasingly taken into US. To me this in itself is an acknowledgment the training in Yr 10 and 11 is for students who are already well behind.

 

I would urge parents going through  the yr 7 audition process not to be fooled by brand names and assume that having a child at any of the lower schools will set them up with exactly what they need and be a ticket to top intensive classical training at Yr 12. It really isn’t. 

 

 

 

No, you are right Flora.  Nothing is guaranteed in the ballet world!  

 

I do remember a previous thread a few years ago that really alarmed a newish ballet parent who said that she had been put off one particular school.  As useful and as important a discussion as this is, it should be remembered that 1. Not all parents of ballet students are members here; there are others who are no doubt quite happy with their child's vocational school, but we're not hearing their stories.  Secondly, I'd urge all prospective ballet parents to read and absorb people's posts here, bear them in mind, BUT visit the schools, do your research, ask questions, get a gut feeling and *then* decide whether to accept an offer.  No school, ballet or otherwise, is perfect for everyone but it would be awful if our experiences alone swayed a new poster so much that they were completely put off.   So important to explore every avenue when making such a huge decision. 

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My DD always had good pastoral care from house staff and academic staff. The real issue is the treatment in the ballet studio and the way they behaved on occasion was deplorable. The void that exists between ballet and other staff means that these problems can’t be addressed as they operate in their own world and other staff very much know their place and often aren’t ever spoken to or acknowledged by the Ballet staff. It’s like there are two completely different schools within one.

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I agree Anna with your post above and plainly no school is perfect. Also UK schools must work within the stricture of the UK system and we parents would probably not be happy if academics were jettisoned in the way some international students jettison them at 14 or so. Appreciate this has also all been discussed before. 

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10 minutes ago, Anna C said:

 

No, you are right Flora.  Nothing is guaranteed in the ballet world!  

 

I do remember a previous thread a few years ago that really alarmed a newish ballet parent who said that she had been put off one particular school.  As useful and as important a discussion as this is, it should be remembered that 1. Not all parents of ballet students are members here; there are others who are no doubt quite happy with their child's vocational school, but we're not hearing their stories.  Secondly, I'd urge all prospective ballet parents to read and absorb people's posts here, bear them in mind, BUT visit the schools, do your research, ask questions, get a gut feeling and *then* decide whether to accept an offer.  No school, ballet or otherwise, is perfect for everyone but it would be awful if our experiences alone swayed a new poster so much that they were completely put off.   So important to explore every avenue when making such a huge decision. 

This is absolutely right, BUT what do you do if a dc has only one offer? or falls completely in love with a school? Truth is that ballet exerts a will o' the wisp glamour and to put  your hands in your pockets and walk away is more than many of us can do. Even if we have misgivings...

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1 minute ago, Anna C said:

 

No, you are right Flora.  Nothing is guaranteed in the ballet world!  

 

I do remember a previous thread a few years ago that really alarmed a newish ballet parent who said that she had been put off one particular school.  As useful and as important a discussion as this is, it should be remembered that 1. Not all parents of ballet students are members here; there are others who are no doubt quite happy with their child's vocational school, but we're not hearing their stories.  Secondly, I'd urge all prospective ballet parents to read and absorb people's posts here, bear them in mind, BUT visit the schools, do your research, ask questions, get a gut feeling and *then* decide whether to accept an offer.  No school, ballet or otherwise, is perfect for everyone but it would be awful if our experiences alone swayed a new poster so much that they were completely put off.   So important to explore every avenue when making such a huge decision. 

Anna C, we hear the positives all the time on here and I have never seen such a useful and measured discussion about this topic.  It is easy for those reading to think that those commenting all have DC's who haven't been successful in the school and so have a reason to feel negatively about the school.  I have heard So many sad stories from my DD's year who have been through WL, all the way through to US or for only a year.  

 

I feel genuinely sick to my stomach when people I like tell me that their child has a place there.  I remember the excitement and pride when she got in vividly.  I'd only heard about the school from JA's and other parents who didn't dare tell me anything negative for fear of saying something about their own DC that might get out, which I fully understand now.  However....

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While I agree with your above comment Anna C, I think this thread is very important as people are speaking out in a situation in which they do not feel threatened. I'm not planning to say any more as we are no longer associated with the ballet world. However, we did have issues regarding fees following a medical letter so if anyone wants advice re that I'm happy for them to message me. Wishing everyone all the best in whatever you do - mental health and happiness is the most important thing and life is long  ! That's my pearls of wisdom !!! 

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9 minutes ago, tabitha said:

My DD always had good pastoral care from house staff and academic staff. The real issue is the treatment in the ballet studio and the way they behaved on occasion was deplorable. The void that exists between ballet and other staff means that these problems can’t be addressed as they operate in their own world and other staff very much know their place and often aren’t ever spoken to or acknowledged by the Ballet staff. It’s like there are two completely different schools within one.

Having a non dancing DC in the same schools as DD, the different experience is enormous! 

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I have been reading this topic closely and feel compelled to add our experience. My daughter (year 9) is at a top uk lower school and has been since year 7. She is incredibly happy and always has been. She has had amazing experiences and opportunities which will stay with her forever. 

The pastoral care has been great and very supportive when we have needed help. I also feel that the teaching, both academically and dancing is exceptional. 

We are now in the process of auditioning my older daughter for upper schools, something we would never consider if my younger daughter were not so happy and healthy in her school. 

My daughters are in love with dance and it is an amazing opportunity to be able to follow your dreams. 

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12 minutes ago, Picturesinthefirelight said:

Is part of the problem that certain top schools don’t allow visits/open days apart from briefly at finals as they choose you not the other way around?

Open days don't allow people insight into the workings of a school behind the scenes though do they...

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1 minute ago, Twoballerinas0004 said:

I have been reading this topic closely and feel compelled to add our experience. My daughter (year 9) is at a top uk lower school and has been since year 7. She is incredibly happy and always has been. She has had amazing experiences and opportunities which will stay with her forever. 

The pastoral care has been great and very supportive when we have needed help. I also feel that the teaching, both academically and dancing is exceptional. 

We are now in the process of auditioning my older daughter for upper schools, something we would never consider if my younger daughter were not so happy and healthy in her school. 

My daughters are in love with dance and it is an amazing opportunity to be able to follow your dreams. 

This is lovely to hear.  I hope both of your DD's are very happy for a long time to come. 

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Like many others, I've been following this thread, and looking back am horrified that I kept DS at first vocational school as long as I did.  One one occasion his jaw was so badly damaged in the boarding house he was taken to hospital, and then recalled to see a specialist.  

 

The social services for the area called me, and I foolishly assured them I didn't want it pursuing.  I didn't realise at the time that no action would be taken against the perpetrator - although I had been assured by the school that it would. The reason they didn't take action?  A TV crew was coming in to see the child in question.  By the time they had gone I was told "it was too late, punishment would be meaningless."

 

I knew nothing about ballet, and had very limited exposure to boarding life - and what experience I had (non vocational school boarding school where I worked) was very positive.  I just didn't know any better, and didn't want to rock the boat.  I do remember feeling from quite early on that two or three were being seriously trained, the rest were paying the electricity bill.

 

With musical DD I have felt far more confident in building relationships with staff in her vocational boarding school - rather than my "we are not worthy" attitude with my son.  Whether it's previous experience or a different vibe to the school I don't know - probably both.  My advice would be:  would you be happy with this at a "normal" school or teacher?  If yes, fine, if no then don't let the fact it's vocational school cloud your judgement.

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20 minutes ago, Mnemo said:

This is absolutely right, BUT what do you do if a dc has only one offer? or falls completely in love with a school? Truth is that ballet exerts a will o' the wisp glamour and to put  your hands in your pockets and walk away is more than many of us can do. Even if we have misgivings...

 

Absolutely.  As parents who just want our children to be happy and to follow their dreams as far as possible, it's a horrible situation to be in if your child gets one offer (or more but the others are out of reach financially) and you have any concerns or misgivings about the school.  There is still an all pervading, even if unspoken, feeling of "there are x number of students/dancers who will happily take your place" which I suspect extends to company level, not just schools.  

 

Of course, this attitude of "put up or shut up" is not limited to the dance world, but the proportionally tiny number of places at vocational school or UK companies does still contribute to the feeling of "I dare not be the one troublemaker".    After seeing Christopher Hampson's statement about the treatment of dancers, I would love to hope that things are gradually changing, but sadly, not quickly enough for current students at some schools.  "I dare not make trouble because I am (or my child is) lucky to be here in the first place" is not a healthy message and can't possibly nurture students of any age. 

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I think that British parents have to also be aware that if their DC were offered a place at the RBS Upper Schoool directly from WL or from any other ballet school, then they have to be prepared that their child will be without a doubt be at the bottom of the pecking order in regards to being offered any ballet related opportunities that may arise. My DD is at WL & I've been following roughly what opportunities are being offered to the students at the upper school (ie opportunities to represent the school etc) & it's always the same foreign names that keep coming up time after time! I feel sorry for all of the other students, particularly the British ones, who are also & equally amazing dances but unfortunately will never get a look in! 

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From what I understand after reading the comments on here, it seems to be that some of the vocational schools treat an awful lot of their students simply as cash cows, rather than the schools being the nurturing, caring places they should be. I wonder if it has always been like this ? I DO think the extremely high fees and the "you're lucky to be here" culture of vocational schools mustn't help. But it also reminds me somewhat  of the UK university system. Yes, there are hundreds of universities taking tens of thousands of students, so it's nowhere near as exclusive. But how many thousands of them are doing what is known as "Mickey Mouse Courses" with low entrance requirements? But hey, the Uni gets another £9,250 a year for three years, so happy days for them. Maybe if parents and children voted with their feet and decided NOT to audition in such large numbers for the top vocational schools they would have to sit up, take notice and change their ways. But while people are practically falling over themselves to be taken in by these top schools, I guess the schools can sort of feel like they can do and behave however they like, within reason, without too much changing. 

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24 minutes ago, Ribbons said:

I think that British parents have to also be aware that if their DC were offered a place at the RBS Upper Schoool directly from WL or from any other ballet school, then they have to be prepared that their child will be without a doubt be at the bottom of the pecking order in regards to being offered any ballet related opportunities that may arise. My DD is at WL & I've been following roughly what opportunities are being offered to the students at the upper school (ie opportunities to represent the school etc) & it's always the same foreign names that keep coming up time after time! I feel sorry for all of the other students, particularly the British ones, who are also & equally amazing dances but unfortunately will never get a look in! 

Are the fees higher for foreign students, do you know, like at UK universities?

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Most of the students that keep getting the opportunities seem to have won a full scholarship via Prix or one of the other big competitions. Some I would guess would be on sponsorship. 

 

I know that the Austrailian girl who's joining upper school next Sept (who's only 14) is going there on a full scholarship. 

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46 minutes ago, meadowblythe said:

 I do remember feeling from quite early on that two or three were being seriously trained, the rest were paying the electricity bill.

 

This is so true. A lot of the issues stem from the fact that there is differential treatment of students depending on how talented they are. The students see some shockingly bad student behaviour which goes unrecognised if the student is one of the perceived ‘stars’ whereas others are punished disproportionately.

 

This also extends to the mantra of “if you work hard you’ll get results/rewarded, which quickly becomes meaningless when certain students get rewarded with star parts even when they patently don’t try or feign injury to skip class and bunk off to go shopping on a regular basis! Students know that they are getting away with it and staff turn a blind eye.

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