British training at Lower and Upper Schools

[Vonrothbart]

EDITED BY MODS TO ADD:

 

This thread is for the continued discussion of the British classical ballet training system that developed in the "Good luck/Audition results" thread for 2018 auditions.  

 

Please bear our Forum Rules in mind when posting; notably not "outing" other people's children or making it easy to identify certain students by posting which school they are coming from/going to AND that highly critical posts must be made under your own name.

 

Many thanks.

 

********

 

Vonrothbart's original post:

 

There's a girl who was told by RBS when she was 16, that she didn't have the "right" body for ballet, she was accepted into the company when she was 18, via a different route.

[atacrossroads]

On 13/03/2018 at 13:05, Vonrothbart said:

 

There's a girl who was told by RBS when she was 16, that she didn't have the "right" body for ballet, she was accepted into the company when she was 18, via a different route.

I'm hearing more and more stories like this.  The trend seems to be moving away from UK vocational training as a route to a career in ballet.

When you consider that the rumour is that only 2  WL girls who came in year 7 have made RBS US for September, only 5 WL girls have made it into RBS US at all and that the rest of the US intake are internationals, including international competition winners, it makes you wonder whether even the top vocational schools can either provide the required training, or even spot the correct candidates to train from year 7....

Edited March 15, 2018 by atacrossroads
Spelling

[Anna C]

Of those WL girls starting RBS Upper School in September, it will be interesting to see how many are kept on for the full 3 years too. 

[meadowblythe]

And it also shows not getting into WL in year 7 isn't the only route to RBS US, or to a successful career ... my maths suggests that 3 girls who joined WL later still were accepted for US.

[atacrossroads]

That’s correct meadowblythe

[Pointetoes]

One of the current  first yr RBS US students started at Elmhurst and joined WL in yr 9, having got a no from them for yr 7 ( WL spotted the student while visiting Elmhurst and offered the student a place ) 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Pointetoes

[Dancermum2003]

I believe the two that got in from WL are British 

[Pointetoes]

 

24 minutes ago, Dancermum2003 said:

I believe the two that got in from WL are British 

Current first years ? One of them definitely is. 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Pointetoes

[stressedbeyondbelief]

Current first years most certainly have 3 English girls all from WL. 1 who was all the way yr 7-11 and 2 from year 9-11. 😊 There is another English girl for sure again from WL but not aware of her time at WL. 😊

[Siconne50]

Yes def only 2 British girls made RBS upper school this year! 

[Dancing unicorn]

There were 2 girls from WL who were def there yrs 7-11! My dd was at the ss with them before they started in yr7 (Year above my dd!) 

 

Edited March 15, 2018 by Dancing unicorn

[stressedbeyondbelief]

Yes dancing unicorn i think you are right plus 2 who joined in year 9 so 4 english girls in total in US yr 1. I know 2  girls who joined WL year 9 most certainly who are now in 1st year olus 2 other girls who started WL in yr 7 😊

[Dancing unicorn]

No British girls were taken into 6.1 from the outside auditions last year either!!!

And only 1 from the year before! 

[Lifeafterballet]

Out of the 13 original year 7 girls who started Elmhurst in 2012 only 2 are in the 6th form. A total of 5 from year 11. So similar statistics to RBS. I calculate that more than 20 girls have been part of the year group at some time. Comings and goings, for a variety of reasons, in vocational schools are the norm I feel. 

[Dancermum2003]

Sorry I meant from the 5 who have got in from Yr 11 this year ie going into Upper School in Sept 

[Sadielou]

Does anyone else find it odd that RBS have found the money to create a new post for Samira Saidi to "recruit the worlds most gifted dancers" ? - especially as competition entrants from both YAGP and Prix are already making up two thirds of each RBS US year group. Do we really need to pay somebody to find more ?  RBS even have an International scholars page, talented kids who are technically too advanced for White Lodge and have been promised US places if they want them when they are old enough. Several foreign students in year 1 are currently only year 11 age and there is one girl joining US next term who is only 14. The RBS year 7s have the same initial potential as those students from abroad, but are obviously not getting the training they need and deserve. Why are the RBS not embarrassed about the lack of home trained students coming through ? Why is nobody questioning this. Surely money would be better spent training the students they already have to the standard they obviously require. Anybody can cherry pick from the competitions, but it seems that very few can actually train dancers !

[atacrossroads]

Absolutely.  The stats are awful for our UK students and I would imagine that the money used to give scholarships to these highly trained International children is coming to the school from the UK government, who presumably have no idea that they are funding the further training of non UK talent.

 

If you look at other European schools such as Paris Opera Ballet or Royal Danish Ballet, they are taking mainly children from their own country and training them right through to joining their companies.  If the Royal Ballet School and English National Ballet School had to take 80% British students, the attitudes towards training here would have to change.

 

RBS should be embarrassed, the statistics for their years 7-11 training success compared to other European schools falls very short.

[Oldermum]

Further to Cotes du Rhône’s comment  about last years year 11 being offered upper school at Elmhurst. 

 

Although there are only 2 DD from the start of year 7 are at Elmhurst upper school a further two were offered places but took up a place elsewhere and another who started later in year 7 is also in upper school, so 5 where offered upper school, at Elmhurst last year who trained there from year 7.

[Lifeafterballet]

22 minutes ago, Oldermum said:

Further to Cotes du Rhône’s comment  about last years year 11 being offered upper school at Elmhurst. 

 

Although there are only 2 DD from the start of year 7 are at Elmhurst upper school a further two were offered places but took up a place elsewhere and another who started later in year 7 is also in upper school, so 5 where offered upper school, at Elmhurst last year who trained there from year 7.

 

Be nice if it had been more though 😕

[atacrossroads]

16 minutes ago, Lifeisgood said:

Hi, do we know if any girls not from wl were offered places? 

Surely there  were some senior associates there too? My dd knew of one sa girl who she felt was definitely worthy of a place! 

No associates were offered places, I think only one SA got to Finals. I don't know of any SA's getting offered Upper School that I can recall.  You would imagine that if RBS wanted them for US they would be at WL getting their full time training.

I don't know of any UK girls from other schools being offered RBS Upper School places, does anyone else out there?

[Balletlife4me]

2 minutes ago, atacrossroads said:

No associates were offered places, I think only one SA got to Finals. I don't know of any SA's getting offered Upper School that I can recall.  You would imagine that if RBS wanted them for US they would be at WL getting their full time training.

I don't know of any UK girls from other schools being offered RBS Upper School places, does anyone else out there?

That is really sad for the uk dancers. I feel really sorry for those on the sa programme travelling the country each weekend most of which I’m sure are desperate that the extra training from the rbs will help them make it. 

 

[atacrossroads]

With barely half of WL year 11s making it to RBS Upper School,  I would imagine it would be a bit of a stretch to think that a child doing one afternoon a week with them is going to get into Upper School.  They'd be better off not travelling the country and having a private lesson with someone good nearer to home possibly?

[Balletlife4me]

34 minutes ago, atacrossroads said:

With barely half of WL year 11s making it to RBS Upper School,  I would imagine it would be a bit of a stretch to think that a child doing one afternoon a week with them is going to get into Upper School.  They'd be better off not travelling the country and having a private lesson with someone good nearer to home possibly?

Really? Not perhaps dedication and dreams? 

[Dancermum2003]

I’m interested in the funding element at Royal. I know one of the international prize winners who is entering US in Sept has advertised winning a ‘scholarship’ . I didn’t think international student could have scholarships? I wonder what checks the government make on the MDS students and their progression?

[Balletmum55]

Is it 5 WL girls that made US or just 5 WL students, so boys and girls included? Brilliant news for the 5 but hopefully all the other dancers will be snapped up too x 

[Siconne50]

5 white lodge girls, majority of the boys in yr 11 got a upper School place

[Sadielou]

I have  personally been through the RBS system myself, had all 3 of my DC go through various stages JAs MAs WL, along with several of my students, one of whom is one of the great British rarities that actually made it all the way from JAs to the RB company. But taking this all into account, If I had the chance again I would definitely have taken my kids out of the RBS system at year 9 age and sent them abroad to a school with a proper training system. I would  honestly advise anyone with a very talented child to seriously consider doing the same, don't be swayed by the RBS name, it means nothing, taking well trained students from abroad and passing them off as your own, does not make a good school. Students from abroad come to the RBS as they know that they are almost guaranteed a job with one of the companies and it is reasonably easy for them to get a work visa, they are not coming for the training. One of my own children declined a place at RBS US and is now training abroad, is extremely happy, and has re found the love of dance that literally disappeared during WL and is actually looking like a well trained dancer,. I know this would not be the case had they have stayed in London. 

[Yrosered]

48 minutes ago, Sadielou said:

I have  personally been through the RBS system myself, had all 3 of my DC go through various stages JAs MAs WL, along with several of my students, one of whom is one of the great British rarities that actually made it all the way from JAs to the RB company. But taking this all into account, If I had the chance again I would definitely have taken my kids out of the RBS system at year 9 age and sent them abroad to a school with a proper training system. I would  honestly advise anyone with a very talented child to seriously consider doing the same, don't be swayed by the RBS name, it means nothing, taking well trained students from abroad and passing them off as your own, does not make a good school. Students from abroad come to the RBS as they know that they are almost guaranteed a job with one of the companies and it is reasonably easy for them to get a work visa, they are not coming for the training. One of my own children declined a place at RBS US and is now training abroad, is extremely happy, and has re found the love of dance that literally disappeared during WL and is actually looking like a well trained dancer,. I know this would not be the case had they have stayed in London. 

That's really interesting. Where would you recommend abroad? 

[amos73]

52 minutes ago, balletjack said:

5 white lodge girls, majority of the boys in yr 11 got a upper School place

 

I heard only 2 of the uk girls priginally  taken in y7 were offered upper. Were the other three international students who came in later years (from competition wins?)

[atacrossroads]

You’ve summed it up so well Sadielou.  

I’ve noticed this year that the majority of people reading or commenting on the audition stages of the Forum are parents of DCs from years 5-9. 

Once you get to the gruelling stage of US auditions there is a drop in contributions (presumably as the process becomes so intense and personal that you try not to focus on it hourly and just try to get through it with the end result of an offer somewhere.).

I would urge these parents of younger students to research widely into the business as a whole, the training beyond RBS being the be all and end all, and what else is available out of this country as well as within it in the form of private coaching or elite after school vocational classes.

dreams are very important, but a realistic perspective is more useful...

[amos73]

1 hour ago, Dancermum2003 said:

I’m interested in the funding element at Royal. I know one of the international prize winners who is entering US in Sept has advertised winning a ‘scholarship’ . I didn’t think international student could have scholarships? I wonder what checks the government make on the MDS students and their progression?

 

I thought that the funding in upper school does not have the same uk residency requirements. Which is why they can give scholarships to international students. Is that the case does anyone know?

 

aside from that I would have to agree with the posters on here questioning what is going on with the training at wl if they deem majority of these girls  they chose and trained aren’t good enough for their upper school (unless they ‘chose’ them after they had been trained abroad to a standard high enough to win highly competitive international competitions). But as someone pointed out are they a product of royal training if they came for two or even just one year and then went to upper?

 

 

 

[Siconne50]

Yes out of the 5 white lodge girls 2 are British who trained at white lodge from yr7 the others foreign who joined from yr 9 or 10 onwards 

[Balletlife4me]

Have the statistics from wl been like that for a while though? Or did many more used to get a place at upper? 

 

It seems that it is just so hard for the uk to compete with the international whom most seem to be home schooled and train for much longer hours. We still place great value on education here with most training just after school hours. 

 

I think most people are very realistic and have a back up plan/other options.