So, You Want to Learn to Dance? - but....uh...I'm an adult....

[LinMM]

I assume Roger will have retired by now.....must be in his 80's!! I'm glad David is still playing then. But there was a rather special atmosphere in that particular class. Roger's classes were always very intense at the best of times but he was a great teacher and passed on a great love and respect for classical dance.

[DancingPixie]

As far as I know he is still teaching...

[LinMM]

Ah well both still at it then! I'm sure he'd be very surprised to know I'm at it again.....still trying to bring something to fruition!!

I read his book recently "The song sings the bird". Enjoyed that.

 

To get back to the music thread though....I do remember if any of his pianists did not quite get the rhythm he wanted he would whistle instead!! Okay but....don't think I'd want for every class!!!

[Anjuli_Bai]

Order of the Barre

 

I encourage you to click on the link below - but then, come back here and post in any comments, questions, that might have occurred to you.

http://www.ballet.co.uk/magazines/yr_05/jul05/ab_doing_dance_12.htm


Edit: Page changed to give link to original Ballet.co article. Anjuli_Bai text as per first post added.

[Anjuli_Bai]

Is Pointe a Silly Dream?

 

 

I encourage you to click on the link below - but then, come back here and post in any comments, questions, that might have occurred to you.

http://www.ballet.co.uk/magazines/yr_05/jul05/ab_doing_dance_11.htm


Edit: Page changed to give link to original Ballet.co article. Anjuli_Bai text as per first post added.

[Fiz]

I am still wondering when or if I will go on pointe. I might talk to my teacher after summer school

[Dance*is*life]

Talking of pianists, as you were a while back, I wonder if anyone here remembers Cyril Addison who played so wonderfully for his brother Errol's classes????

[LinMM]

I think Anjuli has given some pretty comprehensive advice about pointe work here so anyone wanting to have a go after considering this advice I think should go for it!

 

I would love tobe able to continue with pointe work from 20 years ago but have made the decision that for me this is not advisable.

I have a strong bunion which doesnt give me much gip now as long as I wear sensible shoes. This was caused in fact by going on pointe too soon as a child so really appreciate the advice given here about children whose bones are too soft still and I feel the legs and back have to be strong enough first to support the body on pointe whatever age you are. Luckily in recent years the tendency to put younger children on pointe seems to have decreased but although adults feet are fully formed they still need to have the strength to pull the weight off the feet. Although I feel I do have this strength have decided no point in aggravating this bunion which pointe work would almost certainly do so better to enjoy dancing without it.

But would love to hear how other adults get on with it. I can still remember the excitement of being on pointe the first time all those years ago a real ballerina at last!!!

[Fiz]

Oh, Lin, what a shame! I suspect pointe is just a dream for me but I had such a great time last night and am developing a real friendship with our new pupil and teacher than if N tells me it is not possible, it would not be the end of the world. I was so hot last night and so was K - we were dripping, not exaggerating, and the air con was on full blast, but we were so happy

[LinMM]

Thought I would post this here rather than under the Royal Ballet new contracts for 2013 thread.

 

I was looking at the list and then remembered seeing something on Youtube

It was of Anna Rose O Sullivan when she was just 10 years old! (She has just been taken into RB Company)

 

I thought this video was a great example of lovely expressive dancing but not a pointe shoe in sight!! You really don't have to put kids on pointe till 12 ish as Anjuli says and even though you do see these somewhat precocious kids as young as 8 out there on pointe it doesn't mean they can necessarily really "dance" just because they have pointe shoes on!

 

To see Anna Rose dance as a child you can google her name and the video will come up under list of references etc.

[Moomin]

She's amazing in that film. I wonder how many hours a week she was dancing

[Anjuli_Bai]

Order of the Center

 

I encourage you to click on the link below - but then, come back here and post in any comments, questions, that might have occurred to you.

http://www.ballet.co.uk/magazines/yr_06/jan06/ab_doing_dance_13.htm


Edit: Page changed to give link to original Ballet.co article. Anjuli_Bai text as per first post added.

[Anjuli_Bai]

Expanding the Class Schedule and What Can be Done Outside of Class

 

I encourage you to click on the link below - but then, come back here and post in any comments, questions, that might have occurred to you.

http://www.ballet.co.uk/magazines/yr_06/feb06/ab_doing_dance_14.htm


Edit: Page changed to give link to original Ballet.co article. Anjuli_Bai text as per first post added.

[Thecatsmother]

I liked your post. So true and I do feel sad when I see students who have pushed themselves too fast as in actual fact it takes longer to unlearn the bad habits. Private lessions can be useful to spend more time on specific needs if these are apparent. So much of what makes the difference between good ballet and bad ballet are the basic lines, stance, turn out, use of feet etc. These take time to fully grasp and of course each student has to work with physical limitations. Dance is totally not just about learning steps. It is an art which involves crafting and refining. This needs guidance from teachers because v often students take a while to really be able to be grasp the crucial elements. It is not that they are not trying but just looking at the wrong goal until they can really begin to "see" and feel the gradual integration of the fundamentals of early training. Most teachers are more than happy to give advice as to when students are ready to progress so don't be afraid to ask!!

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Anjuli and Balleteacher

 

As always I’m intrigued by your comment, however I have a few basic questions:

 

1)At what point does one loose the label beginner?

 

2)Anjuli comments in para 1 focuses on expansion of class schedule, should this not include the simple things like resistance band work and relevés to strengthen the ankles and feet, something I would have thought was essential early on.

 

3)I note your recommendation in para 4 is: 3 classes a week after the first year, I’m not sure what you would make of my 12, and to some extent I would probably agree that 12 may be too many as I need to go for quality rather than quantity, but that’s down to selection and availability and not necessarily the number.

 

4)I note the last sentence in para 5 states “Working by yourself in not recommended”, whilst I understand the logic, I think there is an important point lost. Firstly learning is largely done by repetition, confidence is build by knowing you have the ability to do it yourself. Always under the guidance of a teacher I feel can create an element of dependency.

Whilst I think I would agree with you comment right at the beginning of a dancer’s introduction to ballet, much beyond that, I think they need to progressively develop an element of independence and confidence. Even now with some of the higher level classes I attend, I see dancers at the end of the centre barre swap over sides when they come to do the exercise on the other foot, so they always have someone to follow. These dancers generally have a lot more experience than me, but a bit of that confidence is missing. I don’t move if I’m on the end of the centre barre, I have to take on board the difficulty and use the independence of my brain to sort it out, or at least try and remember the steps. It amazing what you can do when you have to think for yourself.

 

 

5)Balleteacher: why should speed have anything to do with learning bad habits, for me I would rather dance badly than not dance at all, I can always get better. One shouldn’t be frightened to make a mistake, that’s how we learn and progress.

 

I like your comment “Dance is totally not just about learning steps. It is an art which involves crafting and refining. This needs guidance from teachers”, however I come at this from a slightly different perspective. I do a lot of repertoire workshops with my preference of solo rolls from some of the classics. Prior to a workshop I learn and practice that scene so I am at least familiar with it, be it badly, whatever, that’s not that important. When I attend workshop it becomes less about the actual sequence and more about technique and presentation. Also the teacher will spot things which I have missed and equally I will spot things the teacher has inadvertent left out. Furthermore I really need to keep my repertoire alive in long term, to that end, I have email one of regular teachers for private coaching of this list, otherwise the memory will soon fade.

 

 

I cant wait to see the next in the series “One teacher or Two”, and there’s me considering 5 teachers in one day.

[Thecatsmother]

Hi Michelle

 

It's good to ask questions. I am totally not for creating dependence on a teacher but for a beginner it can be very hard to distinguish between finding the right muscles to begin with in order to create good lines. In addition, a good grounding in beginners is vital to enable smooth progress and to lessen the chance of injury which can stop someone dancing completely.

 

All teachers have different views on this but my sense is that it is best to ask your teachers when you are ready to progress. Most of mine do and are very open to the feedback. I am of the opinion that if you are talking about an adult beginner then they should be able to make use and produce good lines of legs, feet and arms, a sense of balance plus an understanding and enhanced ability to begin to use the correct muscle groups for ballet. Dancers should also be able to perform basic jumps using turnout and proper use of feet otherwise this will impede progress in the long term. If you are uncertain, my advice would be to ask your teachers. It seems like you have many so for this reason it may be worth approaching each to ask if they believe you are in the right class standard for you to get the most from classes. Since different classes are at different levels each may have differing opinions. If students are not in the right level then it can also impact upon others in the class. It is usually the case that teachers often have to encourage adults to move to the next level but your question seems to be phrased around quantity of classes rather than technical skills. Maybe it is useful to review where you are at in discussion with your teachers. Practice does not necessarily make perfect-it makes permanent hence my comment in terms of consultation with teachers as it is likely they will know how to advise you as to how to get the best from your classes. You need to be able to see and hear from others even at a professional level so part of learning dance, just like learning any other art form is to receive and integrate advice and feedback.

 

Hope this is of use.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Balleteacher

 

Thank you for coming back to my comments, as for asking questions, I would say I probably go a little bit further than that with my teachers, the relationship is quite close and direct, as I actively seek both feedback from class work and advice on other ballet work I’m doing, if there’s problems with my progress I will get that message loud and clear, furthermore I also seek homework from some of my teachers. As finding the right muscle groups etc, we have had this discussing before, whilst I do think it would be beneficial, it plain and simply does not happen in the majority of the cases, I personally are trying to become reasonably well read on the subject by utilising the time I’m travelling on the train for my London Ballet trips.

 

As for progressing, most adult classes I attend have no progression system, its seen mainly as a recreational class, however with mixed ability dancers ranging from ex-professional down to absolute beginners, its not uncommon for easier and harder options to be used eg third / fifth position plus mainly off the barre exercises to be a little different too. However my ENB classes do operate a grading scheme ranging from level one (Absolute beginner) to level 4 (Advanced). Progression decision is left entirely to the dancer, but there is a pre-course taster session to allow dancers to try before they buy so to speak. As you say many dancers do seek the view of there teacher, I was with her at the end of the taster session when this happened, I didn’t, there was no need we knew each other’s mind from our continuous feedback dialog. I certainly don’t need encouragement to move up.

 

As for openness to feedback, this depends very much on the type of class it is and also the student’s aspirations. My local teacher has a small village ballet class of about a dozen dancers, mostly are retired ladies and a couple of young mums. I know she is very concerned about giving critical feedback where they are only there for recreational purposes, so as not to upset them. We have an entirely different relationship, I positively seek feedback and get it with enthusiasm, even if it’s to say, “your not quite there yet”. She is fully aware of the other classes I attend and performances I’m involved with. This teacher is very much a stickler for technique and good lines etc. So to some extent she does keep me on the strait and narrow, however the number of movements covered are limited and quite basic, but never the less its good fundamental grounding.

 

Quality of classes for me is about the continuance of the learning process, but as you can see most of mine are structured on recreational lines, so the training aspect is somewhat limited, there are others like Pineapple were you need to know what you are doing and are quite fun, but you don’t necessarily learn an awful lot from them. No class that I attend at present has any form of documented syllabus, not even ENB which I rate as one of my best.

 

It is usually the case that teachers often have to encourage adults to move to the next level but your question seems to be phrased around quantity of classes rather than technical skills. Maybe it is useful to review where you are at in discussion with your teachers. Practice does not necessarily make perfect-it makes permanent hence my comment in terms of consultation with teachers as it is likely they will know how to advise you as to how to get the best from your classes. You need to be able to see and hear from others even at a professional level so part of learning dance, just like learning any other art form is to receive and integrate advice and feedback.

As for the above comment, you are preaching to the converted, however bad habits can originate from teachers too, particularly where something is over emphasised to make a point. A case in point was my local teacher teaching Grand Battements and emphasize going through a tendu, particularly the close, all in the class including the teacher developed almost “and in” for the tendu as a separate and somewhat aggressive move. This aggression was spotted at ENB when I did level1 and corrected, never the less the close is something I still positively look for, when I got to level 3 on my first day, my new teachers demonstration did not appear to go through a tendu, so when she asked if there was any questions, without engaging my brain I said “should you have closed through a tendu?”, to which she replied “are you criticising my technique?”, Oh woops, I quickly had to recover the situation, but when she re-demonstrated it, it was clearly visible. Perhaps I should have said “Should I be closing through a Tendu?”. For me that tendu point of contact is always visible, but it’s part of a continues movement.

 

I still curious to the unanswered question “At what point does one loose the label beginner?”

Edited September 7, 2013 by Michelle_Richer

[LinMM]

I would say after about a year .....losing the label beginner!!

 

Have you ever thought of going for a properly graded class like RAD or BBO or similar? This can be a good measure of progress.

[LinMM]

Just to say only have half an hour a day access to wifi at mo so replies may be a bit tardy at mo etc

[Thecatsmother]

I guess it depends what is meant by the term 'beginner'?

[Michelle_Richer]

Lin :Firstly there are no formal grading classes for adults local to me, early on I did enquire, I guess there is always the private route, but all this takes a great deal of time, that I really don’t have, but then I have to ask myself what would I gain as I’m not making a career out of it or auditioning. Also am I really likely to be able to remember and be able to execute efficiently all the ballet movements detailed in the dictionary of classical ballet, I think not.

 

For me, its better to spend what little time I have remaining in my lifetime focusing on repertoire holistically, so that I can perform the limited number of movements and connecting steps necessary to perform those pieces I have learnt with grace and elegance that it deserves, to be presented to an audience in an aesthetically pleasing manner. As my overall aim is to perform and perform well.

 

As for your suggestion of a year, what assumptions would that be based upon, number of ballet specific classes per week, other dance related experience, general fitness, number of related body condoning/fitness classes per week or time for the body to adjust or what?

 

Balleteacher: The term beginner was not one I conjured up, but one you and Anjuli use regularly, so I think we need to put some context behind it.  

[LinMM]

Well Michelle it really does all depend doesn't it!!

 

If you only do one ballet class a week for a year does that make you still a beginner or do you have to do three a week for a year befor e you can be classed a non beginner!!

 

It's just I seem to remember you were complaining that the term beginner seemed to apply for too long!!

 

I could say you were a beginner until you reached grade 3/4 level and that would take a couple of years.

 

So take your pick really!!

[LinMM]

Just like to add a beginner at ballet applies to ballet only I wouldn't count the fitness classes which may be good for you but don't take you further forward with ballet knowledge

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

I know this is a very subjective term, that’s why I’m asking the question, especially as it has been banded about so much. Many in adult ballet have done grading as youngsters, this is certainly true of ladies my local class, but now they have even forgotten many of the very familiar terms that we use every day as well as being quite rusty with the associated movements. But do we regard those as beginners, against your grade of 3 and 4 criteria they are clearly not. Then of course we have the anomalies like myself, which have not or intends to follow a formal RAD/ISTD or what ever grading route, but never he less will follow a progressive structured learning pattern as my aptitude and experience allows.

 

As you say your beginner tag would only apply to ballet training, my view is quite different. I don’t believe body change and conditioning come from ballet classes alone, especially if you are only talking of up to three classes a week. I believe physical but related training is essential, my view is that you must take a completely holistic approach and where I differ significantly from the views expressed on this thread, is the value of practicing to develop your own sense of independence and confidence. That is not to say you only copy from training material and have no independent feedback. Like the Giselle variation we are both doing, I’m gradually going through the material independently, the bits I’m not sure about, I have asked questions on his forum and I will be seeing my Lincoln teacher view after class tomorrow night. I have already email my Angles Theatre teacher to try and arrange regular private sessions before class on the repertoire I am building up, so that remains refreshed and the underlying techniques enhanced to a good performance standard.

 

But never the less that simply does not fit in with what has been expressed as a beginner, nor work I expect a beginner to tackle the type of ballet I’m doing let alone what I am contemplating in the future.

[LinMM]

I guess in one respect you can go for anything you like.

 

The standard at which you express yourself would in the end determine your level though.

 

Even in the Giselle variation there would be a variety of standards I should imagine but you could tell immediately those nearing a professional,standard and those nearer the beginner level standard.

 

There's nothing stopping anyone having a go at anything but how you look in it will say where you are really!

 

Some here would say a beginner is really up to vocational level classes which is grade 6 level

 

Obviously previous experience helps because you already will know a lot of ballet terms and maybe have the basics built into the body

But an adult beginner from scratch will be that way for one to two years I would say!!

[LinMM]

Just to,add that yes it's important for the body to have extra ballet related exercise to help with flexibility etc but in the end it won't help you to put two to three ballet combinations together. You could be an Olympic gymnast and not be able to do ballet because you just don't know the format so if you want to improve your ballet knowledge then I would say you need to do more ballet classes.

[LinMM]

I also think the term beginner is used.....though I don't want to keep on about it....because it does take a lot of strength to do certain exercises eg grand ronde de jambe en L'air OR for example fondu en croix combined with ronde de jambe a la seconde!

 

A person in their very first year of ballet could go to classes where these exercise were part of the class but I can more or less guarantee they wouldn't be doing them very well!!

 

It's these sort of exercises which require a couple of years of practice and usually come in round about intermediate level.

 

As I said before anyone can go for anything......it depends how you want to look doing something.

 

Sometimes you just have to cut your losses and get on with it and just try dancing as you say though as you do in amateur repertoire

There's nothing wrong with that.....just makes you realise just how good the professionals are!!

I wouldn't worry about the term beginner too much as you are not someone pursuing a professional career. It's important for young people though to learn in a sequential and ordered way where they do follow through the grades to some extent so that their technique is not compromised. You have a bit more lee way as an adult as you are only doing it for pleasure and don't have to have a perfect technique etc.

[Michelle_Richer]

Hi Lin

 

I guess we have a piece of common ground if I slightly change the wording of one of your statements: “The standard at which you express yourself would in the end determine you’re perceived level”.

 

This is the strategy I'm following, its not enough for me to learn a piece of repertoire at a workshop and allow that work and body memory to fade with time. My philosophy is to regularly refresh it (or in other words rehearse it) to keep it current and by using structured teacher feedback, enhance both the underlying technique and presentation to a good performing standard. The bones of that strategy have already been laid down.

 

I'm already seeing one of my teachers on Wednesday to discuss private tuition/monitoring for this, I have three other possible tutors that I may approach as this develops.

 

Its not my intention to just go to ballet class do a few exercises and be fairly good at doing centre work, or for general fitness. Its to ultimately to perform solo rolls on stage regularly where ever the opportunity arises. I have the drive and determination to make his happen, irrespective of some of the negative comments that come my way.

 

If I can just pic up on an earlier comment from Balleteacher “If students are not in the right level then it can also impact upon others in the class”, I guess I do, particularly at my local classes, but not for the reason implied that I would hold them back. Just the opposite, I will often make suggestions to enhance centre work, admittedly I cant do that with every teacher as it may be perceived that I am undermining them, but most I have a good relationship with and they understand my enthusiasm. And if they don’t want to accept my suggestion they will probably say “Shut up Michelle”, we exchange smiles and no offence is taken on my part. I realise my enthusiasm is a handful for most teachers, but that’s how I come, that part of my character.

 

Lin you may call me a beginner based on dates, but I wonder what impact does active learning hours have, I'm sure the professionals will have a field day with this one, especially as we have completely different mind-sets. I'm very much a go getter and in no way passive. I wonder how many beginners would contemplate trialling 6 ballet sessions in one day with a 500mile round trip with a view of checking the logistics of turning that into a weekly occurrence. I guess that blows the mind-set of many on this forum, but it does demonstrate my determination and commitment to succeed.

[Jan McNulty]

Michelle - you are very lucky to be able to devote so much time and money to ballet, fitness and all the other dance activities you participate in.  Most of us are not in that fortunate position so perhaps we should consider you unique and that other people fit more into the profile that Anjuli is writing about.

[LinMM]

I think even professionals would have a problem keeping up with six classes a day in a round trip of 500 miles!! Even doing that once a week wold be quite gruelling I think. So definitely unique in that way!!

 

I do admire your commitment Michelle it is beyond approach. I know I could not keep to your schedule without injuring myself. I'm probably a bit over protective of myself regards injury though, as I know at my age it takes longer to recover and so I'd rather do less classes rather than run the risk of being out for months!! Although I do realise that injury can come at any point...a moments lapse of concentration etc or you can just land awkwardly from a jump for some reason.

 

I really like to do a class then a days recovery then another class etc which averages about 4 per week. It took me two years to feel strong enough tomget to four a week even though Inhad prior experience of ballet. The prior experience only helped once my fitness levels had caught up because I do have a good step knowledge of ballet and am familiar with most of the terms up to Advanced level.

 

This coming Autumn I may try to some weeks do an RAD drop in class at Intermediate level which would make it five a week but will build this in slowly and that would definitely be my max!! I only have the luxury of doing this because I am now retired and could not have done as much if I was still working as would not have had the recovery time and general time!!

[Moomin]

I think to move on from beginner level you should have mastered the basic steps and be able to perform them with some grace, poise and reasonable technique. I'm not sure I could put a period of time on it as it depends a lot on prior experience, commitment and natural ability. I would agree with you lin that it is obvious to everyone in a class who is a beginner and who is not! To me it is mainly about the grace, control and positioning. I have met a couple of people who think they are rather better than I think they are but I can't say that I've experienced anyone obstructing a class. As long as they're not holding the class back it doesn't really affect me how well others are performing!

[Moomin]

I'm looking forward to the next installments anjuli! Don't think any of us only have one teacher, perhaps mainly to do with availability of classes!

[Thecatsmother]

Perhaps a more holistic approach might be useful when addressing the issue of adult ballet. What is this all about apart from the expense, travelling and attendance of classes?

 

Here are my thoughts...

 

Adult ballet should ultimately be about fun and enjoyment as opposed to a test of endurance. It should help enhance flexibilty, co-ordination, musicality and strength. An adult has to master the challenges of using the correct muscle groups and mastering movements to develop the best possible classical lines.

 

Adult ballet can also be a good social experience and a form of non verbal emotional expression in terms of moving to music. I know for certain that I dance different things in different ways depending upon my mood.

 

There is much to be learned from watching others in the class as this can provoke deeper reflection upon how to enhance technique or perform a movement with the right quality. We can learn as much from watching what we don't like as from watching what we like. Each are opportunities for learning.

 

Adult ballet should be as safe as possible in terms of the physical space and working around the level which is appropriate for experience. There are some things that cannot be learned and some adults by nature of physique, natural aptitude etc can find it easier to progress than others.

 

Adults seem to have become increasingly interested in performing. This can be a valuable and enjoyable experience but mastery of lines and technique will always improve the aesthetics.

 

One of the things which I have noted that can be a challenge for adults is linking steps together and developing fluidity of movement. This is why it is important to have a good technical grasp of individual steps before moving on to more complex enchainements. It is also useful to mark through exercises with just arms, head and body so that the movement becomes integrated and more fluid when it is executed.

 

As an adult progresses they begin to develop their own 'inner teacher' which can help to correct and practice movements. This takes time and some adults are more able to utilise this wisely to their benefit. All dancers need feedback and to be fully able to observe and actually 'see' what is working and what needs to be improved.

 

This has become a rather lengthy post but my advice to adults is firstly to find a class you enjoy, can practice at a safe level and embrace the opportunity to learn. We all have days when class feels more a chore than a pleasure but it can be useful to regularly review training as needs may differ for a whole host of reasons.

 

Ballet is an art form where dancers push themselves to attain what always seems just out of reach. Whilst this is a useful motivator, there are a number of other aspects of amateur ballet which are there to be enjoyed so the 'no pain, no gain' mantra does not always have to be the case. Listen to your body as certain pains are a sign to stop in order to protect against injury.

 

Finally, dance is not a competition at amateur level. There is no set pace as everyone's needs are individual and can change over time. In days where stress in the workplace is so prevalent, adult ballet should be a source of stress relief as opposed to a source of stress. Keep things in perspective????