Jacqueline Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 As Oscar Wilde might have said, there is only one thing worse than a snob, and that is an inverted snob. Blondie, I am offended by your attitude, not only your astonishing rudeness but your incredibly blinkered view. It is indeed sad that you have to go alone, because not one member of your family can overcome their own prejudice to support your son. Is it really this, or do they just not want to go?Of course there are people out there who consider themselves more informed, intellectual and superior, you will find that in every walk of life. Just as there are people with no idea how to behave in public or show respect to the performers.You just have to get over it. I won't say more about your comments as others have already done so. Just try and lighten up, enjoy your son's performance and let him enjoy it, with luck your family may reconsider.Ballet is for everyone. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 The advent of mobile phones and, more recently, smart phones has led to a problem that did not exist 40 years ago. I think that the custom of eating and drinking in cinemas has begun to creep into theatres and concert halls in the last few years and in some venues it is not discouraged, if not actively encouraged. When I was at Sadler's Wells this week I noticed, with some dismay, that people were bringing drinks into the auditorium. I think that this is now permitted at the RAH as well. I personally do not want red wine spilt on me as people are sidling past me on their way to their seats. I'm actually quite surprised that these venues allow it as it is difficult to clean up spilt drinks effectively. Before long these venues are going to become grubby and smelly like many cinemas. My children's school has a beautiful new theatre and food and drink are not permitted in the auditorium. When my daughter's ballet school put on a production there I had to stop quite a few people taking food and drink into the auditorium even though an announcement about this had previously been made. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Sadlers Wells are really bad for food because of all the darn boxes of fruit pastiles etc they sell. Why do people have to eat during a performance? Water I can understand as the theatres do get hot but food I don't get. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 I have to have a bottle of water with me to take my meds, so I can understand the water issue. I've never felt the need for an alcoholic drink during a performance though. ;-) Sweets is a tricky one - my dd loves a sweet or two at the theatre, but I don't let her rustle unless it's during applause or the interval! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 Yes i often need water as current meds give me a very dry mouth. Not sure I could co-ordinate a glass of wine.lol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 There's no problem with water as far as I'm concerned. Theatres and concert halls can be really hot and spilt water does no lasting damage. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomuchtallent Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 well i am definitely not a snob nor middle aged and not overweight. When i wrote my first post i meant that nearly all of the things happen in one performance!After years of this i have the right to be a bit upset. All this is about is being aware and having manners and respect for others.This has nothing to do with what type of people are attending. . 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangorballetboy Posted September 20, 2012 Share Posted September 20, 2012 How is the average person supposed to know whether to hum or sing during Land of Hope and Glory? It's quite easy, as is the case with most of the "expected norms" of good behaviour. Look around and see what everyone else is doing. If the vast majority of people are not chatting to their neighbour or texting on their phone, then don't do it. To go back to LoH&G, as the choir/chorus is not singing during the first time through the trio, neither should the audience. I was quite angered by your postings, but that's because I'm not middle-aged (according to the new definition in the press recently) nor female but I'll admit to being overweight. I'll also admit that the first time I went to the ballet at the ROH I was wearing shorts & a t-shirt, something I have repeated now and again. I find it odd that you consider it elitist to expect good behaviour at the ballet. Is it elitist to go the cinema and expect to be able to hear the film? Is it elitist to sit in the family stand at a football match and expect those around you not to curse? IMHO, it's a shame that some people play the "elitism" card where it's not appropriate. This is (again, IMHO) one of those situations. L 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 It would make life easier for the "Last Night" audiences if the programme were to detail some of the traditions, or if the conductor could announce some points of etiquette, as the Prommers do have many and varied (and some rather odd) traditions! However, you only have to have watched it on tv a few times to pick these things up. Fortunately, my parents always watched every year without fail, and would point out the "Prom etiquette" to me. We now watch every year and I explain it all to my daughter. But failing that, if I am ever unsure of when and where to applaud or sing - I just watch other people to see what they're doing, even if it means I'm a few seconds behind. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 When you go to the ballet it can be difficult to know when to applaud (apart from at the end of the performance, of course). Some ballerinas in particular seem to expect applause at the end of their solos, and I understand that applause throughout the performance is the norm in certain countries. Perhaps those people on the forum who have been watching ballet for a long time can tell me whether there is now more frequent applause at performances than there used to be. I don't object to the heartfelt, spontaneous applause which you occasionally get at performances though. To be fair to Blondie, if you read back through the comments on this thread and those on related threads the rather indignant tone of some of them (don't lean forward anyone!) does come across as a little bit haughty / "outraged of Tunbridge Wells" (no offence meant). Some of the comments were possibly intended to be light-hearted but did not come across that way. I have to say though, Blondie, that if your son wants to pursue a career in ballet he is going to need the support of the whole of his family and that support is most obviously shown by coming to watch him perform. The attitude of your family signals strong disapproval of his choice of career and it is sad to read that your family puts their own feelings (and prejudices) ahead of your son's needs. I'm frankly surprised that they are not thrilled to have the opportunity to watch your son perform in a professional production by a top-class ballet company. Most families would be bursting with pride and would move heaven and earth to be at the performance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Aileen I live in Tunbridge Wells.lol Re the applause. I remember being stunned when I saw the Bolshoi years ago just how often they expected applause. It really ruined the performance. Personally I think they drag the applause at the end out too. Not just the Bolshoi but many. I'm guilty of moving my head. I think that is unavoidable. The support of our wider family for my son has been mixed. My husbands family make great efforts to see him but sadly, my own don't. However my husband, myself and our other children have given him huge support. My husbands family though are more the theatre background. My father in law led the Hallé for 30 years and my sisiter in law danced for LCD. I don't really think the thread reads as haughty but if others feel that it is a shame. However I stand my my dislike of the elitist card being played. It is a stereotype that I really do think is fading. But I'm not "Disgusted" really:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Well I will be sitting in the front row of the circle watching BRB's Swan Lake at the Lowry on Saturday night and I wish your son well Blondie. I am indeed a middle aged woman who could probably do with shedding a stone or two, but I'll have my definitely not overweight teenage daughter sitting next to me and I can assure you that she will be just as irritated as me if bad audience behaviour spoils her enjoyment of the performance. It's nothing to do with age, or size, it's just plain manners. It costs a fair bit of money to visit the theatre, be it for a ballet or anything else and I don't think it's unreasonable to expect to actually be able to see and hear the performance that you've paid to experience. I don't expect the theatre to be as quiet as crypt - some audience noise is unavoidable - but if someone is chatting, texting or crunching crisps then I think I'm entitled to feel somewhat aggrieved. Yes, if you go to a more child orientated performance you should expect more noise and young people do need to learn how to behave in social circumstances but there is, in my humble opinion, a time and a place for that learning to occur. Which is why my DD's first ballet trip on her 5th birthday was a matinee performance of Nutcracker followed by tea at a pizza restaurant rather than a dinner at a Michelin starred restaurant before an evening performance of Manon! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Julie, as I was typing my last post I had a feeling that someone was from Tunbridge Wells! There is a difference between not making a huge effort to watch a family member perform - because of distance, family responsibilities, inconvenience or cost (where perhaps an overnight stay is necessary) - and refusing to go to a performance because of the perceived attitude of other audience members. I suspect that Blondie's family don't like ballet anyway and wouldn't want to go and see it even if they weren't concerned about the rest of the audience. The position which they have taken is so extreme that it makes me wonder whether they don't approve of their (male) relative doing ballet. Perhaps they are embarassed by it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 (edited) I don't thimk that objecting to bad manners is snobbish wherever you are, be it cinema, theme park, theatre, football match etc. If people have paid to see any event they have the right to be able to enjoy it. I have to wear hearing aids which means that the sound of sweet packets, crisps etc is magnified horrendously if eaten behind me and can make me jumpy. I am very curious as to what ballet Blondies family have seen if they think only middle aged haughty women go!! Obviously not much. which is sad.. I have been to performances where its obvious that some people have dressed to the nines as it were (nothing wrong in that) and others have, like me,been very comfortable in jeans (although mine don't fit anymore!!) . Anything goes as far as I'm concened. I am there to watch a performance not members of the audience. My son has described how awful it is dancing for disinterested people so he scans the audience for at least one audience member who is obviously engaged- in one case it was a group of enthusiastic nuns! Incidently my own family (incuding my mum!) never made the effort to see me perform professionally but this was simply because it didn't occur to them as they just weren't that enamoured with dance. They have been more supportive of my son though. I know of several people who will now make the effort to see more ballet thanks to seeing my son's company but I can honestly say that the reason that they didn't go before was not through any preconception about the people they 'd be sitting among. And if I think something is good, I will cheer- much to the horror of my sister who said thet you couldn't do so at a Ballet! Says who? Although obviously one does have to pick the right moment.... Hope you enjoy watching your son Blondie, and good luck with trying to get more family support- at least your son does have you, the most important family member there! Edited September 21, 2012 by hfbrew 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think we shouldn't be speculating too much about the reasons that Blondie's family do or don't go to the ballet. That's for her to tell, or not. Audience behaviour excites strong feelings and numerous anecdotes, funny and infuriated - it's a subject that never dies. The Guardian had an amusing recent article after Bianca Jagger's notorious(?) use of a camera with flash during Philip Glass's Einstein on the Beach. I guess if you go back a couple of hundred years audience goings on would have been very different. When did you last see rotten fruit thrown? Incidentally I just came across this nice piece from the Ballet Bag about going to the ballet at Covent Garden which discussed the conventions of audience behaviour in a non-patronising way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 It's not just limited to audience behaviour John. :-) You should read the threads on a certain forum for people who cruise - the behaviour of other cruisers is often discussed and there are certain "offences" which incite some extreme reactions! The dress-code issue fascinates me - I dress reasonably smartly to go to the theatre or ballet (particularly to the ROH) but it wouldn't occur to me to be annoyed by someone dressed differently. I suspect that inconsiderate behaviour has bothered people ever since the advent of theatre-going. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 OMG when I started reading spannerandpony's last post, I had a quite different meaning of "cruise" in mind (nothing to do with ships!) thought you were being awfully frank, s&p! Now I've got my mind out of the gutter... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Ha ha! No!! Holidaying on cruise ships! :-o 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pups_mum Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 OMG when I started reading spannerandpony's last post, I had a quite different meaning of "cruise" in mind (nothing to do with ships!) thought you were being awfully frank, s&p! Now I've got my mind out of the gutter... Well I think you just managed to single handedly dispell the myth that this forum is full of snobby, haughty people toursenlair - well done! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 Many years ago, I was "tutted" at ROH because I had jeans on and was sitting in the stalls. I had travelled down from Liverpool for a matinee when the weather was atrocious and I was not sure I could get home. I was dressed appropriately for the weather (but not too shabbily) and it was a matinee (where dress wasn't usually quite so formal). It nearly put me off ever sitting in the stalls again - but it didn't! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I think we shouldn't be speculating too much about the reasons that Blondie's family do or don't go to the ballet. Quite. We have no idea about the circumstances, and making assumptions won't help the situation. Audience behaviour excites strong feelings and numerous anecdotes, funny and infuriated - it's a subject that never dies. The Guardian had an amusing recent article after Bianca Jagger's notorious(?) use of a camera with flash during Philip Glass's Einstein on the Beach. I suspect Einstein would be a bit of an exception: I thought the audience were intended to wander in and out, bring food and drink in and so on, so perhaps flash photography is less unacceptable in that case? I suspect that inconsiderate behaviour has bothered people ever since the advent of theatre-going. :-) I don't know about the advent, but it's certainly a major issue for a lot of people. I've mentioned this thread before: it's now up to 140 pages! http://www.whatsonstage.com/board/index.php?/topic/22065-bad-behaviour-at-a-show/ OMG when I started reading spannerandpony's last post, I had a quite different meaning of "cruise" in mind (nothing to do with ships!) thought you were being awfully frank, s&p! Now I've got my mind out of the gutter... Katherine, I have to admit, you weren't the only one! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Many years ago, I was "tutted" at ROH because I had jeans on and was sitting in the stalls. I had travelled down from Liverpool for a matinee when the weather was atrocious and I was not sure I could get home. I was dressed appropriately for the weather (but not too shabbily) and it was a matinee (where dress wasn't usually quite so formal). It nearly put me off ever sitting in the stalls again - but it didn't! That's so rude Janet, what business is it of another audience member what someone wears? A few years ago we had a weekend in London to see The Snow Queen at the Coli on the Friday night, and a matinee of La Boheme at the ROH the next day. It was a terrible weekend weather-wise; bitterly cold with heavy snow, so we were all dressed in boots and many layers. Fortunately, so were most other people so we didn't get any funny looks! :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 bitterly cold with heavy snow, so we were all dressed in boots and many layers. Fortunately, so were most other people so we didn't get any funny looks! :-) Good heavens, if we Torontonians got funny looks for boots and layers during ballet season, the theatre would be empty! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellybeans Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 I am appalled at some if the opinions expressed in this discussion.It is no wonder people do not support ballet and that the audience at most ballets consists predominantly of middle-aged overweight haughty women.My son is performing with BRB in Swan Lake at the Lowry this week and I have to attend alone because not one other member of his family wants to be subjected to the general air of superiority that these so-called supporters of ballet have.Ballet should be for everyone.Peoplewill learn the etiquette by attending not by being scared away. I think that Blondie made it perfectly clear why her son's family are not attending. I cannot tell you how sorry I am for that poor boy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted September 21, 2012 Author Share Posted September 21, 2012 I would like to know if Blondie's family have ever been and been scared away or if they just have preconceptions? When I first started wanting to see more ballet than my friends, I plucked up courage and started going on my own. I discovered, for quite a while, that I preferred to go on my own because I met more kind and interesting people to talk to (as I wouldn't have if I had been in company). Even if I travel alone these days, I hardly ever end up on my own in the theatre - even in theatres that I don't usually go to! I always think that regular ballet-watchers are amongst the kindest and friendliest people I have ever met. Just one example - I was grumbling on this forum a couple of months ago about the lack of an attendable-in-a-day matinee for SFB. Another forum member, whom I do not know, contacted me privately to offer me a bed for the night. Unfortunately I then realised that the dates clashed with tickets I already had for NB and BRB but I was overwhelmed by the kindness of a fellow ballet-watcher. I'm at BRB tonight and all day tomorrow. If anyone else is there, I'd love to meet you and natter about one of my favourite companies! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anjuli_Bai Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 Many years ago, my new husband and I attended various performances at the famed Academy of Music In Philadelphia - home of the world renowned Philadelhia Orchestra then under the baton of Eugene Ormandy. The Academy is a mirror image of La Scala - gold brass fittings, red velvet curtains separating the box seats (most of which were inherited from generation to generation). It hosted full seasons of not only the orchestra, but also NYC Opera and NYC Metropolitan Opera, and visiting artists such as Oistrakh, Stern, Horowitz, Bolshoi, etc. While we watched these performances from the upper rafters (where seats became wood benches with just enough room for knees to meet chins) those boxes were occupied by America's version of royalty. Money didn't buy entree - lineage did. Philadelphia's Main Line Society considered British lineage as not quite "there" - it was the descendants of the Dutch patroons who occupied the social clouds - living in homes behind huge stone walls in parks miles from any public road, guarded by what looked like mansions but were, in fact, only the gate houses for the gate keeper. One time a pair of tickets for one of these "inherited" box seats became available as the owners were unable to make the performance. We took the daring step of buying these two tickets - the cost of which was equivalent to two weeks worth of food. At the time my husband was in his last year of obtaining his university degree - so it was an immense sacrifice. We found ourselves on that evening - by far the youngest - and by far the most invisible in that crowd of shimmering jewels, full length gowns, acres of mink and other furs, white and black tie, tailed tuxedoes, with a personal limosine and driver waiting at the curb outside. Some had personal attendants - one doesn't subject a prize fur to a public coat check facility. How did we feel about that? It was a rare glimpse into a world we had only read about. We didn't feel intimidated. We didn't feel jealous. We had no thought of ever wanting to live like that - but we did aspire to some day having the possibility of making a success of our lives so that perhaps we might have some amenities should we chose to do so. Or at least be able to purchase tickets without giving up eating for two weeks. How did they feel about us in their midst? I'm not sure they saw us. But, then, we tried to behave in a manner which did not infringe on the comfort or enjoyment of those around us. Our parents had taught us how to behave in public - and that had nothing to do with one's financial situation or neighborhood. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KathyG Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 In our family the children have been taken to the theatre admittedly panto from the age of 3. Even if one of the children actually slept through the performance. As they got older west end shows usually musicals we only started going to the ballet when DS got serious about ballet. When he has the opportunity to perform on stage we try to support him by going to watch. For us though it is the cost involved so it usually means it's granny and mum who go. Can't afford more than 2 tickets. We did splash out one year and 4 of us went when he did Nutcracker. My mother though is one who will moan about the tall person in front of her or the person who won't sit still etc she's even collapsed during 2 performances! Our DS is also with BRB at Salford we can't be there but hope to get tickets for Birmingham but it will just be Granny and me. Hubby always defers to Granny when we get tickets as she appreciates it and he would fall asleep. I do like to think that all of the children in our family know how to behave in a theatre. I wish more of us could go but it's not feasible. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieW Posted September 21, 2012 Share Posted September 21, 2012 That's such a shame if they don't feel able to see him dance because they don't like the other audience members - I've found ballet-goers a pretty friendly bunch, especially when you tell them your child/grandson/nephew is on stage! Whatever I'm seeing at the theatre or cinema I expect people to be quiet as soon as the music etc starts. I'm there to see/listen to the performance, not be disturbed by the people around me. I don't think that makes me a haughty middle aged woman! I think that makes me a considerate audience member. 12 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Julie 2 Milner Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 In Vienna it was -18c and I had to walk from the hotel to the theatre. I went in my sheepskin boots. I got some very strange looks but it was so cold I didn't care. My son, who was an apprentice with the company but wasn't dancing at that performance was in trainerish shoes. The way the usher looked him up and down was a picture. Also I tried to take my coat in and literally an arm shot forward and wouldn't let me move forward with my coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stirrups36 Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 The behaviour of others doesn't really stop me attending things, especially watching our son dance - maybe apart from a rapidly decreasing interest in watching football which started to decline after the Heysel disaster (now there's audience behavour to really criticise). Things can be annoying, like noisy eaters. Things can be difficult but unavoidable. Is the problem that I am too short, or that the man in front is too tall! But ifi am getting irritated, I try to concentrate on the performance and giving the performers due respect. We went to watch Ballet in London last night. An audience wearing suits, jeans, whatever. Young, old, it didn't matter as far as I could see. I probably irritate people by talking to them before and during the intervals! NEVER a dull conversation, it even got me an invite to visit Khazakstan! (male, rapidly approaching middle age - but no! Now that starts at 60 evidently, YAY! Overweight - I prefer 'solidly built') 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frangapani Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I am unclear as to how you define "haughty" or snobby people? I am middle aged myself and am well spoken (which some people may misinterpret as being snobby as I don't have a regional accent?) - HOWEVER I am the least "snobby" or "haughty" person going - well, I imagine most of the people on here are the same! I have been judged as "snobby" by people who don't know me purely by my lack of regional accent from time to time and it is a pet hate of mine. I am sure .many are offended by these comments...... F Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toursenlair Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 Hi Frangapani, I know what you mean and sympathize. I understand what British English speakers mean by "well-spoken", but speaking as a linguist (and a Canadian, where the accent issue isn't fraught as it still is in Britain), I should point out that it's a rather loaded term, and technically all varieties of the language are "well-spoken" (I'm just saying that on behalf of the people on the forum who do speak with a regional accent). I'm not criticizing, just pointing out an assumption underlying a common expression. I am sure you don't harbour prejudices against varieties of the language other than your own, just as you yourself realize how unfair that is. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hfbrew Posted September 22, 2012 Share Posted September 22, 2012 I too have been, in my opinion, wrongly judged as snobbish thanks to my very distinctive voice (people always know its me on the phone!!). Its a legacy of brummy mum, southern dad, Worcestershire childhood and years of speech therapy! Whenever I go to any event it really doesn't bother me who sits near me as long as I can enjoy whatever it is I've paid to see! And like others on this forum, I've really enjoyed meeting other ballet fans from all walks of life - we are all human beings at the end of the day and it would never occur to me to not go to anything because of "haughty,over weight, middle aged ladies!!" ( That probably describes me by appearance and sound anyway ). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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