what is the best age to start pointe work?

[twinkletoes]

I agree with Anjuli there seems to be far to much rush to get onto pointe, it seems to be taken as a status indicator but in reality it is a risk that is unnecessary, even those going to vocational school seem to have the same misconception and the school and often we see some very worrying sights.

 

My own personal view is that often there is a perception that grade level and pointe work indicates quality and I do not agree that this is necessarily the case, it simply could mean that the student has been pushed through the grades, it has been argued before that a dancer needs to be on pointe to do the higher grades but I would argue that they don't need to do the grades so quickly, there is no harm perfecting the technique of the lower grades and improving their performance style rather than moving from one grade to the next as quickly as possible, it is not always the parents who are pushing either (though I see some of those) often a teacher will get a student who is shining out and they want to push them on but I think that there are other ways to do this than simply pushing the student up the grades or onto pointe.

 

I see students who on paper look exceptional but then when they are in front of me they are a disappointment, then i see others who on paper look less impressive but then when I see them dance they are perfect in technique and beautiful to watch.

 

It does a dancer no harm professionally to delay the start of pointe till they are slightly older, I know there are some people who have started pointe work very early, 9 or 10 and I have had teachers and parents tell me that their feet are strong enough, and they may truly feel that but my view is that I would rather be sure and wait longer, till they are 12 or 13, the damage is not something that you see until it is much later and why be in a rush?

 

This is my own personal view and I know many people differ in their view

[Ecarte]

My DD did not start pointe work until just before her 14th birthday as her teacher feels there is nothing to be gained by starting too early.

 

When she attended her first pointe shoe fitting the fitter commented about how strong her feet were, and how well they had developed. In fact one girl left the class 18 months earlier as she was desperate to start pointe and within 2 weeks she had broken her ankle!

 

We do not study RAD which seems to prefer to start pointe work earlier, and that works for many DDs.

 

My DD is now ,according to her London teachers,much stronger on pointe and has better technique for waiting.

 

So what I suppose I am trying to say is be led by your teacher on the matter,they all have their own way of doing things and prepare their pupils differently.Ultimately they have your DDs best interests at heart. Starting late is not necessarily a disadvantage, in some cases it can be an advantage and vice versa.

 

[drdance]

I can't agree more - and have said words to that effect already on this thread - There really is NO rush, the longer a dancer takes to get strong the better. A delayed start to pointe just means they are more likely to be stronger and therefore more able to actually do things en pointe rather than totter and wobble around, as would a child who is younger or weaker.

[Jellybeans]

 

We do not study RAD which seems to prefer to start pointe work earlier, and that works for many DDs.

 

My DD is now ,according to her London teachers,much stronger on pointe and has better technique for waiting.

 

 

The RAD themselves do not start pointe work at any given age or stage! Pointe is part of the syllabus in the vocational grades only and it is up to the individual teachers when they decide to introduce these, if at all. The age at which students studying RAD start pointe will therefore vary as much as it does with other syllabi and non-syllabus classes.

[Anna C]

Yes, there is a minimum age at which you can take your Intermediate Foundation, BUT there's no maximum age, so there's nothing to say you have to take it at 11. It's difficult to find a balance for non-vocational students sometimes because I think they feel they need to keep up with Vocational students and take the exams at around the same age.

 

But by the same token there is no need to rush the Vocational exams. I hope that my dd will have taken her Intermediate by the end of next Summer; but I'll be guided by her teacher.

[celb]

Just looking at the Youth America Grand Prix's top 12 in the pre competitive age group (under 12) -there are 3 on pointe - 9 year olds from Russia and Peru and a 10 year old from Japan.The russian girl looks familiar- I'm sure she has been the subject of debate in the past on youtube videos.I'm definitely not condoning early pointe work but is there a risk that our dancers are being left behind at virtuoso level particularly when you look at the number of overseas, particularly Japanese dancers who are gaining places in our Vocational schools and companies.

[Jellybeans]

Just looking at the Youth America Grand Prix's top 12 in the pre competitive age group (under 12) -there are 3 on pointe - 9 year olds from Russia and Peru and a 10 year old from Japan.The russian girl looks familiar- I'm sure she has been the subject of debate in the past on youtube videos.I'm definitely not condoning early pointe work but is there a risk that our dancers are being left behind at virtuoso level particularly when you look at the number of overseas, particularly Japanese dancers who are gaining places in our Vocational schools and companies.

 

Seriously, I believe that it is possible to catch up with pointe work if one starts later! I have often compared this to reading ages - in some countries children are not routinely taught to read until they are 6 or 7 but, compare them just a year or so later with children who started at 4 or 5 then there is generally no tangible difference.

 

I think there is more to the training of these overseas dancers that makes them stand out than just the pointe work. I think the training is generally just more intense, but could be wrong!

[drdance]

Jellybeans is totally right - OK so there might be kids in the competition doing pointe work very early but there's no need for it! What do they gain?

 

The reason why overseas students get places at UK schools is down to the fact that so many of the worlds top dancers want to come to the UK to train. If we weren't doing anything right in this country then RBS/ENBS/Elmhurst/Central etc wouldn't have any British students at all! Having said that, I do believe that the training is different overseas - I'm not sure it's the intensity of it that is different, as UK training at vocational level is pretty intense. But I do feel that overseas dancers have a different appeal. Part of that is the British mentality, of course, as we suffer from 'tall poppy syndrome' (ie if I celebrate what I can do well others will hate me and try to cut me down). Because of this we don't ever quite generate the self-assured stage presence or confidence to shine when it counts.

[hfbrew]

There is really no virtue in putting a young child on pointe before age 12. I have very,very rarely allowed older 11 year olds but only if I felt their feet were strong enough and they only did a minimal amount . These particular students were doing a lot of dancing and were very nearly 12 anyway. Most of my students are older when they start and I was gratified when a couple of very talented students who had tried to pressure me actually thanked me for making them wait once they appreciated just how strong they needed to be.

 

As for "overseas" dancers I am certain that Ailna Cojocaru(one of my favourites) for example would have been just as phenomenal as she is if she had gone on point three years later and she very possibly would not have the bunions that are sadly evident when she dances. And many overseas dancers train in Britain for a reason- they know that the training is good, but also that there is generally a lot more awareness about safe dance practice here. I have been privileged to watch classes at vocational schools and can say that all the students regardless of Nationality are worthy of their places, the British students certainly hold their own. Many students from overseas that I have observed can indeed perform "virtuoso" work but sadly quite often at the expense of placement, line , quality and musicality.

 

Many British graduates end up in European companies, we do very well considering Britain is tiny compared to other Nations . Obviously in Europe, British dancers are the "overseas" dancers and are being employed over and above native dancers. I think this is great, just as I think its great that we see very talented dancers of all nationalities in British companies.Whatever your Nationality getting to professional level is extremely hard, getting a contract is harder and all dancers who achieve this should be congratulated. For every dancer who makes it there are many who don't, this is true of all Nationalities.

 

The question" what is the best age to start pointe work" is probably therefore best answered with the fact that it depends on the student and the circumstances. Talented, vocational students who are deemed strong enough should not be younger than in their twelfth year whereas others are best advised to wait until later, especially if they are recreational students and not at vocational school.

[celb]

I was playing Devils Advocate really as currently I am in Olympic mode reflecting on what makes a world beater and Olympic Champion different from the other elite athletes in sport and comparing this to dance when the YAGP photos caught my eye.Training intensity is certainly commonplace to all in the sporting world. I know some dancers in this country who are not vocational struggle to put in the 10 000 hours.

[Anna C]

Hfbrew, I completely agree - except to add that if a child is deemed strong enough in physique and technique at 12, is doing enough quality training during the week and is at a good Associate scheme, then IMHO they are not just a "recreational" dancer, so they shouldn't necessarily have to wait longer to go en pointe just because they're not at Vocational School.

 

With regards to 9 year-olds performing a flirtatious Kitri variation en pointe - yuck. :-(. Sorry. It just makes me cringe.

[soodle]

Is it sensible to think that an early growing child will be 'ready' to go en pointe earlier than a little dancer of the same age? My dd is only 9 but is 4ft11 and size 5 shoes (and I don't think she's destined to be a giant as I've been the same height/shoe size since about 10 or 11, just have grown width-wise!). So I'm thinking she may be thought to be 'ready' younger? I'm hoping not, having seen the price of pointe shoes!!!!

A child's weight and size has nothing to do with the maturation of the skeleton - how bone replaces cartilege.

 

The one question that keeps being asked which no one answers is:

 

Why the hurry?

 

I'm not sure if you've replied to my post above or just generally but to clarify I didn't mean because she's tall will she be 'ready' early but because she's likely to reach her adult height young does that mean her bones will be more mature? I'm in no rush either, just curious.

[Anjuli_Bai]

I'm not sure if you've replied to my post above or just generally but to clarify I didn't mean because she's tall will she be 'ready' early but because she's likely to reach her adult height young does that mean her bones will be more mature? I'm in no rush either, just curious.

 

I have never seen any evidence that there is a connection to reaching adult height early has any connection to the ossification of cartilege into bone.

 

Also, it seems to me that "reaching adult height" is only something known in hind sight. We can guess at growth rates, but I don't think there is any insurance that adult height has been reached until we look back upon it.

[hfbrew]

Hfbrew, I completely agree - except to add that if a child is deemed strong enough in physique and technique at 12, is doing enough quality training during the week and is at a good Associate scheme, then IMHO they are not just a "recreational" dancer, so they shouldn't necessarily have to wait longer to go en pointe just because they're not at Vocational School.

 

With regards to 9 year-olds performing a flirtatious Kitri variation en pointe - yuck. :-(. Sorry. It just makes me cringe.

I agree with you Spanner, the last sentence of my last post implies that all dancers not at vocational school are recreational which is certainly not the case at all! If a student is, as you say doing enough quality training and is ready, then of course they shouldn't have to wait (unless of course they are too young). I should have clarified that some vocational students are not necessarily at vocational school! Sorry! Edited July 20, 2012 by hfbrew

[Anna C]

:-)

[Pups_mum]

I have never seen any evidence that there is a connection to reaching adult height early has any connection to the ossification of cartilege into bone.

 

I would think that there is some kind of connection actually. My middle child has always been very small for his age and has investigated for any possible growth disorders. One of the tests he has had done is xrays to determine his "bone age". This I believe is done by assessing how many of the epiphyses have closed. His "bone age" is younger than his chronological age ie the skeleton is less mature than would be expected for his age. The paediatrician told us that this means that he is likely to continue to grow for longer and thus reach his adult height later than his peers. If that's the case then it seems reasonable to me that the opposite would also be true.

[taxi4ballet]

I'm not sure if you've replied to my post above or just generally but to clarify I didn't mean because she's tall will she be 'ready' early but because she's likely to reach her adult height young does that mean her bones will be more mature? I'm in no rush either, just curious.

A child's weight and size has nothing to do with the maturation of the skeleton - how bone replaces cartilege.

 

My doctor relative told me that a good indication is when a girl starts her periods

[ballettaxi]

Oh no, Don't tell my daughter that taxi4ballet - she's only 4 ft 10 with size 4 feet (we're hoping she grow into her feet - and her ears for that matter but that's for another thread!)

 

She was hoping to get to at least 5ft 3 so that she could tower over all the other females in our family whilst still being an 'average' height for ballet (sorry don't want to start the height debate again), but since she's had her periods for about 6 months now maybe she should give up on that dream.

 

Her pointe journey started about 2 months ago (aged 12 1/2) with about 10-15 minutes at the end of her IF class. Her teacher has given her a series of exercises to do over the holidays and will be starting a pointe class when they return in August. She has indicated that this will comprise of exercises for the most part with a small amount of pointe at the end to begin with and, as the girls develop the necessary strength then the pointe work will increase. The amount of time they spend on pointe will be an individual decision by her rather than everyone at once - she's VERY strict with them around what is appropriate and safe for them to do - and definitely doesn't entertain any one upmanship. If they're not ready or not doing the exercises then they don't get to go on pointe and won't be invited back to the class. Might seem harsh but it's for their own good so I'm happy with that.

[Anna C]

 

 

 

My doctor relative told me that a good indication is when a girl starts her periods

 

I'd read that, but given that some girls start as young as 9, can that be correct?

[taxi4ballet]

Yes, it's all to do with hormones, particularly oestrogen, so he says. He doesn't know about ballet, but he's spent his career analysing the results of x-rays and CT/MRI scans etc. He is the director of a medical imaging clinic and knows his stuff. On average, girls usually stop growing about two years after their periods start in earnest.

[Anjuli_Bai]

Yes, it's all to do with hormones, particularly oestrogen, so he says. He doesn't know about ballet, but he's spent his career analysing the results of x-rays and CT/MRI scans etc. He is the director of a medical imaging clinic and knows his stuff. On average, girls usually stop growing about two years after their periods start in earnest.

 

And then there's this.....

 

I have a first cousin (our fathers are brothers) and she is only 15 days older than I am. Both our fathers were tall -- 6 ft. while both our mothers were small - 5.1. Since we both had the same last names and lived closeby we always sat next to each other all through high school. We were almost perfectly matched in height all through childhood. She started her period at 9 and I at 14. We are still perfectly matched in height.

[tomuchtallent]

I stopped growing way before my period started.Im the shortest in my family,but looks like my dd will be small like me.

[taxi4ballet]

Everyone's so different, aren't they? I suppose that's why it is next to impossible to make assumptions based on anything!!

[drdance]

Yes, it's all to do with hormones, particularly oestrogen, so he says. He doesn't know about ballet, but he's spent his career analysing the results of x-rays and CT/MRI scans etc. He is the director of a medical imaging clinic and knows his stuff. On average, girls usually stop growing about two years after their periods start in earnest.

 

This is correct. The increase in oestrogen that causes the onset of menstruation also plays a big part in bone strength so the indication of the girls period indicates that the oestrogen level has increased and unless there is another medical condition at play, it would be right to therefore assume an increase in bone maturation. However, there are arguments among sports/dance science that intense training may cause physical maturation to be delayed. So while your average female may begin her periods around aged 11/12 this might be delayed in anyone doing intense physical training. I personally don't know much about this particular area so can't comment. But I do know that many late teenage/adult females who are very active and in an aesthetic sport/activity such as gymnastics, dance, ice skating etc have very low body fat which in turn reduces the level of oestrogen that is produced, resulting in oligomenorrhea or amenorrhea (irregular periods or absence of periods). This is also thought to result in a loss of bone density (which is why post menopausal women are more prone to osteoporosis). Many female dancers take the contraceptive pill to regulate their periods, and to try to guard against bone injury.

[Anjuli_Bai]

So, with all these variables......I would always err on the side of caution.

 

The amount of physical activity during youth and midlife also affects estrogen production and storage into menopause. Estrogen is stored in fat tissue - thus thinner women generally store less. Exercise uses up estrogen. Though menstruation is finished, the female body continues to cycle but there is no overt (periods) evidence. However, if one is observant, one can track through the monthly cycle changes in many areas: emotions, sleep and weight changes, mental acuity, manual dexterity, energy levels, voice levels, etc.

 

Estrogen affects every cell of the body and fairly recent study has shown that the body cycles (to whatever evolving degree) to life's end.

[hfbrew]

One of my advanced dancers suffered a serious, freak accident performing a grand jete whereby she broke her leg during take off. It turned out that , as a growing teenager her muscles and tendons were stronger than her skeleton, it was in fact a tendon that broke the bone- it at the time being stronger than the bone.

 

This wonderful dancer was nearly 15, very strong physically and sporty too. The specialists told her that whilst an unusual case it could have happened during any physical activity because in her case her bones were not developing as quickly as her muscles and tendons. But to look at her and watch her dance you would never be able to tell, as she looked very healthy and was an advanced dancer.

 

Fortunately she has made a full recovery. But to my mind a very good illustration of how vulnerable teenagers are during growth spurts however strong they may outwardly appear.So I for one would definately want to err on the side of caution as far as pointe work is concerned.

[TippyTippy]

I think that what this thread shows without a shadow of a doubt it that nobody fits a set-mold. You need to trust your teacher's wisdom whether they want your dd en pointe early or not.

If early really question why, same for late. But go with what your teacher thinks.

Yes information is power, but at the end of the day if you don't trust the teacher's judgement than your dd shouldn't be at that school.

[taxi4ballet]

One of my advanced dancers suffered a serious, freak accident performing a grand jete whereby she broke her leg during take off. It turned out that , as a growing teenager her muscles and tendons were stronger than her skeleton, it was in fact a tendon that broke the bone- it at the time being stronger than the bone.

 

This wonderful dancer was nearly 15, very strong physically and sporty too. The specialists told her that whilst an unusual case it could have happened during any physical activity because in her case her bones were not developing as quickly as her muscles and tendons. But to look at her and watch her dance you would never be able to tell, as she looked very healthy and was an advanced dancer.

 

Fortunately she has made a full recovery. But to my mind a very good illustration of how vulnerable teenagers are during growth spurts however strong they may outwardly appear.So I for one would definately want to err on the side of caution as far as pointe work is concerned.

 

I've heard of this sort of thing before, it happens sometimes to young racehorses as well.

[drdance]

Osgood-schlatters disease at the knee (and Severs disease at the heel) is a direct result of bones growing rapidly ahead of, but being relatively weaker than, the surrounding soft tissue. The tendon that attaches the muscle to the bone at that point ends up pulling on the bone resulting in extra bone cells creating a lump that can be felt, and lots of inflammation.

 

The whole aspect of teaching an adolecent dancer is a minefield once one scratches the surface, which is why having a good, knowledgeable teacher is so vital, especially if the dancer is training vocationally (at any establishment).

[dayoffwork]

• I agree, either trust your childs 'after school' ballet teacher or you should think about whether you are sending her to the right school.
  

[Anjuli_Bai]

Yes, trusting the teacher's judgement is a necessary ingredient to the process. However, I would say "trust but verify." Or "trust and ask."

 

The bottom line is that the parent is the guardian of the child's health and well being. So, ask questions, gain knowledge, observe and then you will have a better chance that your trust is correctly placed. It's not a certainty - nothing is- but knowledge is power and it gives your trust a firmer basis.

[Anna C]

Absolutely. And even if you have the most wonderful teacher in the world, that teacher usually has other pupils to think about and look after, sometimes a hundred or so. As a parent, you ultimately have to look out for your own child and have their lifelong health and best interests at heart.

 

So I completely agree with "trust but verify". :-)

[dancerbabe82]

@balletjack Did you get an answer to your question from this thread? It's very informative! We're lucky to have such knowledgeable people here