Canary Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I told my professional DD that her opinion was not wanted on this forum by some, her response was to say that although she feels attacked she is concerned that students may cause themselves injuries if they train in a professional dancers shoe. Such is her kind nature she has made contact with a specialist she works with and asked them to share their professional opinion and asks that you allow your daughters the opportunity to decide for themselves. Message from a Ballet Specific Sport Scientist, Physiologist and Strength and Conditioning coach who has worked in conjunction with the Royal Opera House, accredited physios who look after professional ballet dancers and produces research in international scientific journals on behalf of Dance Medicine and Science. Although, pointe shoes are personal preference and pointe shoe fitters will advise based upon look, feel, and how much the pointe shoe costs…........... We need to understand the physiology surrounding what happens at the foot and ankle when using Gaynors in comparison to other shoes. It is also important to listen to the advice of dancers who have been through vocational training at highly reputed schools and are now working in the industry. Professional Dancers should be advising younger less experienced dancers because they have experience working with and listening to physio professionals and excellent teachers some of which with more than 30 years teaching experience at vocational level. If we simply talk about Gaynors and their make up and what they do to the foot when dancing, then we can understand why they are not really the best option for the young upcoming dancer regardless of how “good” their feet are. Based upon this it is important to point out that a bendy foot with a great ability to plantarflex the foot (point it) is not necessarily a strong foot en pointe. We should not confuse the aesthetics of a foot in shoe with the ability to perform weight bearing exercise. Gaynors are made of either a strong composite plastic or metal that runs throughout the shoe and it is important remember that usually we would shalac a pointe shoe to harden them and make them last longer. That being said due to the stiffness of a Gaynor, when going through the shoe when lowering or rising, will create both added resistance for the foot on the way down and will aid the movement pattern on the way up. This creates two issues, Firstly for the young dancer, they should learn to rise through a shoe that does not produce any potential “spring back” at any point in the rising or lowering motion. This is because this actually makes the foot work hard to rise and lower and subsequently we see an increase in the amount of force the plantar flexor muscles have to produce in order to rise fully through the shoe or lower effectively without going from pointe to flat. The first problem occurs as because we are making the foot work harder in these harder shoes that don’t break in and spring back, the foot will become fatigued more quickly. This is an issue for younger dancers as they don’t not have the strength or fatigue resistance in the muscles of the foot to sufficiently cope with the force placed on the foot. As a result, there is data to support that stress fractures and other overuse injuries, not just localised at the foot, will occur due to compensatory factors elsewhere in the lower limb as a result of fatigue at the foot and ankle. Secondly, as we know, ballet is a jump intensive activity. During a day of classical ballet vocational training dancers can be subjected to over 300 high velocity and high force single limb foot contacts. This is more foot contacts than I would allow my International level gymnasts and elite level rugby players to perform in a single day due to the forces being experienced by the lower extremities. Therefore, ballet in its very nature requires strong and effective landing mechanics especially in external rotation (turn-out) in order to safely perform these foot contacts. Landing from jumps on one or two legs requires stability at the ankle. Firstly, if the foot is fatigued from hard shoes that spring back before landings become part of the class or rehearsal then we significantly increase the likelihood that injury will occur on landing as result of fatigue. Secondly if a shoe is so hard that when landing, a dancer, is pretty much landing from toe to heel straight away then that heel contact can result in bruising which will firstly change the mechanics of landing to compensate for the discomfort and this will usually lead to poor landing mechanics that increase the chance of injury and secondly change the aesthetics of ballet technique for the worse. If we take this a step further. Anecdotally, in the physio departments at companies when we get young dancers in at the start of their professional careers, we see that dancers who have used shoes not made from plastic have a greater ability to produce force through the foot which allows them to have greater control over movement and subsequently places them at LESS risk of a over use injury like a stress fracture. In companies at some points we may advise on gaynors if the foot is right and in 3rd years of vocational training I have occasionally advised on the wearing of Gaynors HOWEVER, these are shoes that require added control as they require greater levels of strength to use. That said it does NOT mean if your daughter is wearing gaynors and is fine at the moment she has the adequate strength to control them and her foot mechanics for the long run. My take home message does agree with the view that GAYNORS are a shoe that are not generally involved in the progression of Young Dancers trying to gain employment in the ballet world. Strength training at the ankle knee and hip are a more essential part of ballet training than rushing the progression to GAYNORS. A more traditional shoe will better encourage the correct mechanics for rising and lowering and especially landing in young Dancers. Foot strength before Gaynors is my advice… 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Thank you for your clarification Canary. You will see from responses to your previous post that members whose DC use Gaynors do so with advice and approval from their teachers. I think, if I had a DD who happened to have been advised to wear Gaynors, I would have been greatly offended by the implication that they are a cheat shoe and I suspect that is why other members responded so strongly to your post. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 My dd has tried on Gaynors on several occasions (after having had them recommended by more than one vocational teacher due to her shank-breaking tendencies) but has never found any that she's been happy with. They just didn't feel or 'look' right on her, and the vamp length was all wrong. Everyone is different, and they could have been the perfect ones, but without trying them you will never know. As Sheila says, it can take quite a while to find the best-fitting shoes - a case of kissing a lot of frogs before you find the prince, maybe?! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) In which case I had better advise my daughter to give up poInte completely because someone on the internet says so as they are the only shoe that fits her & supports her feet correctly. This is mostly due to the shape of her foot & it's make up. I'm have become VERY angry reading these posts to the exent that I am going to leave the forum as I can not trust what I might say next. Incidentally my daughter sprained her ankle recently. She was not en pointe at the time. Experts think it may be in part to her use of soft blocks. Do I say that soft blocks should not be used by yoUng dancers? Of course not. Edited December 21, 2016 by Picturesinthefirelight Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 I think that is a bit of an extreme action to take PITF. You are a valued and experienced member of the Forum. As a number of other members have pointed out, pointe shoes are personal to the individual and I am absolutely sure that your DD has the pointe shoes that are appropriate for her. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sarahw Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Please don't leave Pictures - I'm sure Canary didn't mean to offend anyone and you would be missed. I think pointe shoe fitting, like many issues relating to anatomy, is a subject which is not black and white and it is possibly unwise to make generalisations. I do accept that GMS wouldn't be a 'standard' choice. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) I told my professional DD that her opinion was not wanted on this forum by some, her response was to say that although she feels attacked she is concerned that students may cause themselves injuries if they train in a professional dancers shoe. Such is her kind nature she has made contact with a specialist she works with and asked them to share their professional opinion and asks that you allow your daughters the opportunity to decide for themselves. I'm only quoting a small bit (although I have read all of it). It may well be the case (and I've heard it before on more than one occasion) that Gaynors aren't the right shoe for recreational dance students who are not dancing en pointe very much. No, their feet won't benefit from having a shoe that purportedly does 'all the work' for them. On the other hand, the shoes would be absolutely fine if expertly fitted, and recommended by professional teachers for teenage dance students who have been on pointe for some time and are already in full-time vocational training. Especially when they have tried and tried with all other makes and styles of shoe (as with Picture's dd) and Gaynors are the only ones that fit their feet. Edited to add: Forgot to mention... there is no such thing as a 'professional' shoe or a 'beginner' shoe. The right shoe is the shoe that fits. Edited December 21, 2016 by taxi4ballet 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Pictures, your inbox is full again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Pictures, you are a very valued member of this forum. Canary, thank you for sharing your dd's opinion and that of the Strength and Conditioning coach. I agree with Sheila that Gaynors are "marmite" shoes. People have been calling them both "cheater shoes" and the best thing since sliced bread for years, since their introduction. And will no doubt be doing so for many years to come! Such innovations that remain one-offs have always and will always attract extreme opinions at both ends of the spectrum. My personal experience of them - as dd occasionally wears them for some variations, but usually wears Freed - is that in the right shank strength, professionally fitted, they are not supposed to "flip" the dancer onto pointe. Nor are they supposed to do all the work, but should allow the dancer to roll through demi pointe. They are quiet, and good for certain variations, but for training, my dd prefers her Freeds. IF they are literally the only shoe that fits your feet, and have been approved by teacher and/or physio, then nobody here can or should dictate to you whether you should wear them. In the right combination of shank and vamp, they are not - in my opinion - "cheater" shoes. That's quite emotive language, as is suggesting people keep their opinions to themselves. Everyone is entitled to an opinion here, provided that opinion does not breach forum rules. We welcome all who follow the rules. You don't have to take anyone's advice - it's their opinion and nobody says we all have to agree. One thing we ask is that members should be respectful to one another, so please everyone, take a breath. A few days before Christmas is possibly not the time to make any snap decisions about staying or going. Edited for clarity. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletmum13 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) My dd's friend's first pointe shoes were Gaynors but they were the only pair that fitted. My dd (14) would like to try them but is going to wait for when she does now pointe. She currently wear Merlet but has also worn Grishko in the past. BM13 Edited December 21, 2016 by balletmum13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
balletmum13 Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 (edited) Also, does anyone have any experience of feet shrinking due to pointework? BM13 Edited December 21, 2016 by balletmum13 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moomin Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 Yes I'm an adult and don't do much pointe but mine seem to have got a bit shorter and wider! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowCar Posted December 21, 2016 Share Posted December 21, 2016 My dd has a pair of Gaynors, she has had no problems with them. I'm pretty sure that a hell of a lot of research went into the creation of these shoes before they came to the ballet market so I highly doubt they are as bad as what Some members are saying. I say each to their own a bit like when you should start pointe. I personally wouldn't let my dd start before twelve but there are a lot of girls that started way earlier, but again that's parental choice. You should do what feels right for you/ dd. My dd has had her Gaynors over a year but she doesn't do much pointe work and they look fab still and she loves them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Parental choice? I thought it was supposed to be down to the dance teacher, who should be in a position to know when the student is strong enough and has the level of technique needed to be able to cope with pointe shoes? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowCar Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 You misunderstand my wording which seems to be a common practice on this forum of people straight away jumping to their own conclusions. My dd is already on pointe, Her teacher didn't come to the shop with her so the choice of shoe was chosen by my dd with help from the expert shop fitters on what she felt fitted best. Plus final choice was 'parental choice' as I decided on how much I could/ couldn't afford! Same as I decided 12 was the earliest age I as going to accept letting her go on pointe. She is my daughter and I have the final say over her welfare and what is purchased within my budget. (parental choice and responsibility) 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YellowCar Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 When I say parental choice of going en pointe I mean if a teacher recommends going on early, then as a parent I would say no ( not before 12 is my parental choice) even if they thought they were strong enough. I don't mean the parents choose when to get pointe shoes! I hope you understand what I mean now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Thank you for clarifying, Yellowcar. I see what you're saying. It can be tricky to get a point across in writing, or a tone, so misunderstandings do happen - not just in Doing Dance but in other areas of the forum. That said, alison is not prone to jumping to conclusions! I think she was querying what you meant. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted December 22, 2016 Share Posted December 22, 2016 Parental choice does come into it I suppose, when the dance teacher (or your dc) suggests: 14 classes a week / going en pointe age 9 / enter multiple expensive competitions / spend ££££££ on costumes or summer schools etc... The answer will quite possibly be "No!" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cara in NZ Posted December 23, 2016 Share Posted December 23, 2016 (edited) Parental choice does come into it I suppose, when the dance teacher (or your dc) suggests: 14 classes a week / going en pointe age 9 / enter multiple expensive competitions / spend ££££££ on costumes or summer schools etc... The answer will quite possibly be "No!" Yes, DD's lovely new private lesson teacher offered her hour-long lessons twice a week over summer (at £40 an hour). I had to email her that our budget would only permit one hour a week Edited December 23, 2016 by Cara in NZ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted June 4, 2018 Share Posted June 4, 2018 A dancer in America has been experimenting with making her own shanks: https://www.sciencenewsforstudents.org/blog/eureka-lab/science-may-help-keep-ballerina-her-toes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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