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Please offer me a seat


Jacqueline

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I saw on the news that people with hidden health conditions are being offered "Please offer me a seat" badges in a bid to help "ease their suffering" on London transport.

This trial follows a "baby on board" badge for pregnant women which was apparently a success. Pregnancy is not really a hidden condition though, unless in the early stages. If a pregnant woman needed a seat, I would offer her mine. She wouldn't need to wear a badge stating the obvious and baby on board does not automatically mean give me your seat, does it?

These days people are more wary of offering a seat in case it causes an outbreak of offence!

 A thousand people have been recruited to wear the latest badges from September 12th. The Mayor of London said he hoped the badges would give confidence to people who find standing difficult.

 I would like to think (wishfully perhaps) that most people have an innate sense of decency and would offer their seat to someone who clearly needed it. But a badge for someone with a hidden condition could be problematic. Is the badge to be backed up with a verbal request? Otherwise the inevitable question would be why should I give you my seat? Do people want to engage in debate about personal things such as health conditions while on a crowded bus/tube? There will surely be many people who don't know about the scheme although perhaps it is widely publicised in the London area?

I would be interested to know what people think about this. Would you give up your seat to someone wearing a badge or is there something patronising or potentially awkward about the idea for both parties? I suppose it does rather depend on the nature of the hidden health condition in that some people are not able to communicate. 

 

 

 

 

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This is something I asked TFL about several years ago, and was told that "disabled people might not want to wear a badge". The trouble is, if you are ever forced to use tubes when the system is busy, it's not always possible to see walking sticks, crutches - or baby bumps, for that matter. Eventually I bought myself a badge with the universal wheelchair symbol on it which people can spot on my collar even if they can't see my sticks.

 

As to whether badges like this are needed? Sadly, yes. You wouldn't believe the number of people who either pretend to be fast asleep in a priority seat or - more often - suddenly lose all peripheral vision and can't see someone struggling to walk and stand up on a moving train. :( And my disability is at least partially visible.

 

Edited to add: I've just looked up the prototype for the badge - it has no symbol on but the TFL roundel, with the words "Please offer me a seat" but no explanation why. I assume that's on the card. Can't help thinking it would be easier for all to understand if it had the "person with walking sticks" symbol that's above the priority seats? If people pretend not to see or understand that symbol on the sticker, or if they are unable to understand written English, it doesn't make much sense to have no indication of disability on the badge.

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Yes it is a bit hit and miss. I gave up my seat to a very pregnant lady the other week. There were plenty of men around but to be fair as I'm always on the look out for potential terrorists when on the tube I was probably just the first to notice.

 

I have often been offered a seat by very nice young men and I don't look disabled or ill or anything so obviously Imjust look OLD!

 

So although am always very pleased to accept unless only going one or two stops etc I then also think..my God I must be looking like an OAP today!!

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I'm happy to give up seat to a badge wearer ......who otherwise looks healthy.....unless maybe I was feeling ill myself but that has only happened once in the whole of last year when that day only just made it up to a loo to be violently sick!!

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Fortunately I am not in the position to need to use a priority seat but I try not to sit on them and, certainly in Liverpool and London, I have seen people on buses moving for the elderly or disabled passengers or people with small children.  I hope I would too, if I notice someone in difficulty.

 

But please don't get me started on able bodied people using disabled toilets to jump the queue...

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I think if it isn't obvious to other travellers, then I think it is a great idea. My only worry would be someone standing in front of me tapping it, or seeing it as a sign of 'get out of the way - i have a right'. It is very often the way in tight stressful journeys, that a smile and 'excuse me, would you mind please if I can sit...' it would be universally accepted on both sides. 

 

To avoid any misunderstanding I will point out I am trying to make a joke in the following lines: 

 

I wonder, with the 24 hour opening of the tubes, that they can sell the badges in pubs, as after so much drinking, a seat may be appreciated.

 

Have read that the design of the badge is a blue circle (true), so will this also affect the use of the balletcoforum badge, or would a member be tempted after standing in stalls for a 3 act ballet ;)

Edited by SwissBalletFan
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As you have mentioned the badges SBF, it had crossed my mind that if people can't spot BCoF badges when they are on the lookout, will people be able to see the "I need a seat" badges?

 

I think, in theory, it is a good idea but I will be interested to hear feedback on how successful it is.

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When I was pregnant I had to be reading a pregnancy magazine and sticking my bump in someone's face before I had a hope of being offered a seat on the tube. I did ask directly a few times when I felt particularly bad or was worried about being crushed in a crowded train. The responses were always bad tempered.

 

As for hidden disabilities, I was once shouted at by a mad woman at the ROH for using the disabled loo with my fully paid up, blue badge holding daughter. Because she is young and doesn't look visibly disabled, this repulsive woman demanded to know what was wrong with her. I can't imagine that it will occur to people for whom this isn't daily life to look out for it and notice it, or know what it means if they do see it.

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I've stood a number of times whilst pregnant too. The problem is that if you can't see the disability you don't know whether the person in the priority seat should be there or not, or those using the disabled loos- you may be cursing them when they need that facility. I definitely don't look at people closely enough on public transport to spot a badge. I'd offer my seat if it was obvious

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I would like to think (wishfully perhaps) that most people have an innate sense of decency and would offer their seat to someone who clearly needed it.

 

50% of the time, maybe - if you're lucky.  I've had to spend several tube journeys recently standing on one leg and hanging on to two different rails, one with each hand, and you'd be surprised at how many people are struck with temporary blindness.  Not to mention the ones who are plugged into ... whatever ... and just sit there staring into space.

 

The trouble is, if you are ever forced to use tubes when the system is busy, it's not always possible to see walking sticks, crutches - or baby bumps, for that matter. Eventually I bought myself a badge with the universal wheelchair symbol on it which people can spot on my collar even if they can't see my sticks.

 

As to whether badges like this are needed? Sadly, yes. You wouldn't believe the number of people who either pretend to be fast asleep in a priority seat or - more often - suddenly lose all peripheral vision and can't see someone struggling to walk and stand up on a moving train. :( And my disability is at least partially visible.

 

To be fair, people sitting down on trains (but not tubes these days) often have a headrest in their line of vision, so can't necessarily spot the problem.  But it's the ones who just sit there and stare at you as if to say "What's wrong with you?" who are the worst.  One of these days, I swear I am actually going to come out and say "No, please don't bother yourself - I enjoy doing flamingo impressions on moving trains"!

 

As for hidden disabilities, I was once shouted at by a mad woman at the ROH for using the disabled loo with my fully paid up, blue badge holding daughter. Because she is young and doesn't look visibly disabled, this repulsive woman demanded to know what was wrong with her. I can't imagine that it will occur to people for whom this isn't daily life to look out for it and notice it, or know what it means if they do see it.

 

But please don't get me started on able bodied people using disabled toilets to jump the queue... 

 

Can you be *sure* that's what they're doing?  (I'm sure some do, but might not others have a not immediately visible medical problem of some description?)  I'm never really sure what the etiquette is for disabled loos, anyway.  Obviously if someone disabled wants to use them, they have priority, but what if on average you only get one disabled person passing through wherever-it-is per hour, then what happens for the other 50 minutes?  Should you never use them full stop?  And what does that say about combined disabled/able-bodied loos?!

 

I wonder, with the 24 hour opening of the tubes, that they can sell the badges in pubs, as after so much drinking, a seat may be appreciated. 

 

No, you lie on the floor on the Night Tube.  Or at least that's what Time Out's reporter reported on opening weekend.

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When my partner had his prostate problems two years ago he needed disabled loo and had one of those keys. This was to prevent him ending up being hospitalised unnecessarily ....but to look at him you would never have known he had such a severe problem....so it is difficult.

 

Sometimes I think it's okay to use ones discretion at using a disabled loo if only one other toilet and in a more countryside situation and not many people around. However in any busy situation at shopping centre and the like then a no-no.

 

Some smaller cafes only have ONE loo and it's a disabled one so not much choice there!

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Can you be *sure* that's what they're doing?  (I'm sure some do, but might not others have a not immediately visible medical problem of some description?)  I'm never really sure what the etiquette is for disabled loos, anyway.  Obviously if someone disabled wants to use them, they have priority, but what if on average you only get one disabled person passing through wherever-it-is per hour, then what happens for the other 50 minutes?  Should you never use them full stop?  And what does that say about combined disabled/able-bodied loos.

I worked with someone who was not obviously disabled but who when he needed to go needed to go THEN. Because he had had a number of issues about this, since then (not that I ever did before) I have made a thing about not using a specifically disabled toilet. On many occasions I have overheard people in queues saying they would use the disabled as no one was in it. Once, at the Lowry, this meant a lady in a wheelchair having to wait.

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Yes, but the more I think about it, the more medical or related conditions I can come up with which might really require the facilities of a disabled loo as opposed to a standard one, even if the person in question isn't technically disabled in the conventional meaning of the term.

 

I'm going to shut up now, before this discussion gets even more revolting :(

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I've been questioned twice about using disabled loos - once at the Coliseum, where an elderly man said to me "you're not disabled, are you." I just said "actually, I am" and held up one of my sticks. He sort of mumbled "oh, that's alright then". I just nodded.

 

The other time I was in a busy pub restaurant where an inebriated man apparently could not see my crutches and shouted "Yeah, as if you're disabled" when I emerged from the disabled loo.

 

For that reason I never challenge people who use disabled loos, but fortunately the staff at the Coli often monitor the queue and just say "these are for disabled people only; if you aren't disabled, please use the other toilets".

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Some good points raised here. If the health condition is hidden, how do you know the person in the priority seat or any seat you may be asking them to give up, does not themselves have a condition. In my experience, most people on public transport do their utmost to avoid any sort of contact with their fellow travelers. Is the whole scheme really just a test of manners? If so, I am sure the results of this trial will tell us what we already know.

I also think in theory it is a good idea but the badge alone is not enough, especially if it gives no indication as to why a person should give up their seat for another. There is certainly a need for more courtesy and consideration on public transport but I think it is a little fanciful to imagine people who are not that way inclined, are suddenly going to become so. If the approach is mishandled or misinterpreted, it could lead to considerable difficulties, embarrassment being the least of them.

I was on the number 11 once. It was very busy as we went down Whitehall and hostilities broke out between three passengers. There was a woman with a large suitcase standing in the area where people with buggies or wheelchairs are given space. Next on was a woman with a very large buggy. She wanted the suitcase woman to move but suitcase woman refused, saying she had got there first and where else was she to go. An argument ensued into which the third person inserted herself, even though it was nothing to do with her. Everyone else, myself included just kept their head down and mouth shut. It became increasingly unpleasant, names were called and violence was threatened. Nosey woman, whose business it was not, started insulting suitcase woman's family taking the view that she must come from a long line of extremely rude and selfish people. She just wouldn't or couldn't let it drop. In the end her voice was the only one to be heard, still hurling insults. Buggy woman had got off by then and I was just hoping my stop at Victoria wasn't too far away.

I was on the tube once and standing. It was very hot and crowded. There was a very pregnant woman who asked another female if she could possibly have her seat as she thought she was going to pass out. The response was unbelievable and unprintable here, it was so offensive. So much for the sisterhood, whatever that is anyway!

I can imagine someone with a badge being rebuffed, someone else stepping in to offer their assistance, whether required or not and the whole thing turning into an excuse for unpleasantness. If only we could all just exercise some common courtesy. We shouldn't need badges or have to ask people if we could have their seat if our need is greater. I realise that is not the real world though. :(  

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Well yes he was making a point probably of what it can be like sometimes but if he wants to make a REAL and VALID point wouldn't it have been better to go and sit on the floor of a SOUTHERN RAIL service train .....not too far from his doorstep .....then he would have been able to do for real absolutely no doubt at all

Perhaps that would have actually taken more guts though.

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In Taiwan on the metro they have stickers that people who are pregnant or with disabilities can wear to show they need a seat. people are normally quick to offer a seat. Also the priority seats for pregnant and disabled are always left free, the mobile never use those seats so those with invisible disabilities don't have to ask. The culture is very different there but I think it's a better attitude, if you sit in those seats people assume you need to be sitting. If the train is busy those seats are often still empty, no one takes that seat just incase. I've even seen someone pregnant sitting there offer the seat to an elderly lady!

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That's interesting, munchkin16. As you say, the culture must indeed be very different there and it is certainly a better, kinder attitude. Just shows it can be done. I wonder also, if the Taiwanese transport system itself is clean and efficiently run. The travel experience makes a big difference to the attitude of those using it. When trains or buses are constantly late, filthy and packed, it doesn't encourage generosity of spirit towards our fellow men, as it were. This is no excuse for obnoxious behaviour but if a train or bus is hot and crowded, it can make the most even tempered of us feel agitated.

I feel sure I have seen footage of very crowded trains in Japan, where platform staff are pushing passengers into carriages so they can get the doors closed.

As for stickers or badges in this country, might it be a better idea to have a specific carriage or partitioned one, for the sole use of people with health problems hidden or not and to which only they would have access, through some sort of pass system. If they can provide so called quiet carriages, where mobiles and so on are supposedly banned, why not some something along similar lines for those who really need a seat.

I have also read reports about disabled people pre-arranging platform assistance, where somebody is meant to help them get on and off trains, change platforms or whatever is required. They have arrived at stations only to find there is nobody to help them, to the point where they have missed their train. On the most recent example, I wondered why carriages can't be fitted with an extending ramp, like they are on some buses. A person could press a button, out comes the ramp and they don't have to rely on somebody turning up to assist.

Edited by Jacqueline
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I have also read reports about disabled people pre-arranging platform assistance, where somebody is meant to help them get on and off trains, change platforms or whatever is required. They have arrived at stations only to find there is nobody to help them, to the point where they have missed their train. On the most recent example, I wondered why carriages can't be fitted with an extending ramp, like they are on some buses. A person could press a button, out comes the ramp and they don't have to rely on somebody turning up to assist.

 

I imagine it's not practicable because there are vast differences between station platforms along routes run by the same operator.  Some have platforms where the train comes in nice and snug to the platform, with hardly a gap and no height difference; at others there's a massive step up (platform 4 at Elephant and Castle mainline, anyone? - you have to be able to pull one foot up to knee height and haul yourself on - I've had to give a hand up to a short-legged and arthritic friend who literally couldn't reach) or a hugely wide gap because the station is on a bend (like the Central Line platforms at Bank on the Underground).  I'm struggling to imagine a one-size-fits-all design solution that would work on, say, Central Line trains at all their stops, or Southern trains at every station on their entire network.

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As for stickers or badges in this country, might it be a better idea to have a specific carriage or partitioned one, for the sole use of people with health problems hidden or not and to which only they would have access, through some sort of pass system. If they can provide so called quiet carriages, where mobiles and so on are supposedly banned, why not some something along similar lines for those who really need a seat.

 

Interesting, although I think that if people are ambulant disabled there may be a limit to how far along the platform they could walk to get to the relevant carriage.

 

I imagine it's not practicable because there are vast differences between station platforms along routes run by the same operator.  Some have platforms where the train comes in nice and snug to the platform, with hardly a gap and no height difference; at others there's a massive step up (platform 4 at Elephant and Castle mainline, anyone? - you have to be able to pull one foot up to knee height and haul yourself on -

 

Yes.  I had to get myself into one of those while I was still on crutches after a knee operation.  It was not fun.

 

I have also read reports about disabled people pre-arranging platform assistance, where somebody is meant to help them get on and off trains, change platforms or whatever is required. They have arrived at stations only to find there is nobody to help them, to the point where they have missed their train. On the most recent example, I wondered why carriages can't be fitted with an extending ramp, like they are on some buses. A person could press a button, out comes the ramp and they don't have to rely on somebody turning up to assist.

 

I may well have sounded off on this before, but some years ago (although this century), some time after new rolling stock with designated wheelchair and even bicycle spaces was introduced on Southern trains, I was at London Bridge where a man in a wheelchair was trying to get on the train.  He *did* get help from station staff, who carefully put the ramp up to the door for him and wheeled him in.  Only trouble was that the designated wheelchair space was in the next carriage.  So they just left him in the doorway, crammed with other passengers all around him.  I was disgusted - so much for disability awareness.

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Perhaps there could be information added to the next train due sign, or an announcement or both, as to where the specific carriage would be or just keep it reasonably central, so people who might have difficulty, wouldn't find themselves having to walk up and down trying to find it.

 

 

 

I have heard the voice warning you to Mind The Gap. Some gaps are barely there but just enough to be sued for, some are like chasms. Surely something could be done about that in this day and age but the disruption and expense would be prohibitive I suppose.

 

The guy you mention getting 'helped' on to the train and the general lack of disability awareness, reminds me of being on the bus in London a couple of years ago. It was the number 11 again and the stop just round the corner from Victoria Station.The road name escapes me but Westminster Abbey is at the far end of it. Is it Westminster Road by chance? There is a parade of shops there.

Anyway back at the bus stop, there was a chap in a wheelchair who wanted to get off. The bus stopped, the ramp was extended and the other end of it reached across to the pavement. Right up to the base of a concrete pillar! Somebody got the driver's attention and pointed out the difficulty. We then had to wait while the ramp was brought back in, the doors closed and the bus moved forward a few feet to a spot where the chap could wheel his chair out safely.

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The guy you mention getting 'helped' on to the train and the general lack of disability awareness, reminds me of being on the bus in London a couple of years ago. It was the number 11 again and the stop just round the corner from Victoria Station.The road name escapes me but Westminster Abbey is at the far end of it. Is it Westminster Road by chance? There is a parade of shops there.

 

Victoria Street.

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That's interesting, munchkin16. As you say, the culture must indeed be very different there and it is certainly a better, kinder attitude. Just shows it can be done. I wonder also, if the Taiwanese transport system itself is clean and efficiently run. The travel experience makes a big difference to the attitude of those using it. When trains or buses are constantly late, filthy and packed, it doesn't encourage generosity of spirit towards our fellow men, as it were. This is no excuse for obnoxious behaviour but if a train or bus is hot and crowded, it can make the most even tempered of us feel agitated.

I feel sure I have seen footage of very crowded trains in Japan, where platform staff are pushing passengers into carriages so they can get the doors closed.

The transport systems in both Taiwan and Japan are exceptionally clean and well run, always on time. The culture makes it easier though, eating or drinking is not allowed at all once you go through the barriers and you would be very rude to do so, especially on the train, so there is no rubbish. There are no free newspapers either to be left lying around!

 

The pushing does happen in Japan but it's not everyone pushing, just the platform staff. In both Taiwan and Japan there are lines on the platform in front of where each door will open and people queue neatly. If the train is full and the buzzer goes for the doors closing people won't run and push to get on, they will stop and start a queue for the next train.

 

I agree late hot trains make you more irritable but it's no excuse for being selfish to someone who genuinely needs a seat. I happily choose to stand sometimes but there have also been days when I was really tired from spending 10 hours standing in very high heels and would hope someone else would give up their seat instead! The culture is very different in Asia though because it's very strongly ingrained from a young age. Things are changing in the younger generations though.

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Anyway back at the bus stop, there was a chap in a wheelchair who wanted to get off. The bus stopped, the ramp was extended and the other end of it reached across to the pavement. Right up to the base of a concrete pillar! Somebody got the driver's attention and pointed out the difficulty. We then had to wait while the ramp was brought back in, the doors closed and the bus moved forward a few feet to a spot where the chap could wheel his chair out safely.

 

That happens quite frequently.  Unfortunately, at some locations careless positioning of various bits of street furniture means that pinpoint accuracy is required to get the ramp extended at all!

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Surely most people taking a train would want to sit with friends and family not in a carriage on their own? And how would you decide who got a pass and what evidence they needed? The quiet carriage is a nice principle but nobody seems to want to sit there! I would much rather take my children to a 'noisy carriage' but they are always full and I have to spend the next hour continuously shushing them in a largely empty 'quiet' carriage!

Edited by Moomin
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Surely most people taking a train would want to sit with friends and family not in a carriage on their own? And how would you decide who got a pass and what evidence they needed? The quiet carriage is a nice principle but nobody seems to want to sit there! I would much rather take my children to a 'noisy carriage' but they are always full and I have to spend the next hour continuously shushing them in a largely empty 'quiet' carriage!

Yes, I imagine people travelling with others would want to stay with their companions. Whether they sat in a specific carriage would be purely a matter of choice. I am not suggesting that anyone be obliged to do so. There must be thousands of people travelling solo on public transport every day as well as those with family or friends.

As for who gets a pass, I am presuming the 'hidden condition' is medical and as such, the decision would be made by a doctor. Passes could be issued for long term and short term conditions, much as they are now for various reasons. The carriage door could be fitted with a system that you pass your card over to register information and open the door. 

I have sat in the quiet carriage on trains and found it to be a very popular place. I have also sat in the regular carriage and found the noise level - after the usual flurry of excited people calling to tell everyone they know that they're on the train or children settling down with activities to while away the journey - it is all quite civilised. There are always some who don't know or care how to behave in public but you get them anywhere.

I suppose all these  things are subjective, all train journeys are different. None of this seems particularly complicated or unworkable but that is just my opinion. 

Perhaps we should just see how the badge scheme goes. 

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Just to say the designated 'quiet' carriage is for those avoiding loud phone conversations and other peoples music.  Those devices are not allowed, wasn't aware there is a ban on kids.

 

There isn't a ban on kids, but if I was travelling with a child who was likely to make lots of noise, I wouldn't dream of taking them to sit in the quiet carriage.  That doesn't include normal civilized conversation which most children over 5 or so are capable of understanding should be made using their "indoor voice".  I'm talking really particularly about toddlers who are especially prone to shout or squeal at the tops of their voices.

 

If on the other hand I was travelling with a sleeping baby, I'd try to sit in the quiet carriage near the door...

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It's my experience that the 'quiet carriage' is much less busy both when pre-booking and when boarding the train. Perhaps it depends what time the train is as to the demographic of passengers? I am generally considerate of other people and respect that some people wish to sleep/ work etc. I find the vast majority of younger children Can not be perfectly quiet for an hour or more. Maybe I have low tolerance but to me that is what the 'quiet carriage' is about. They're children they are learning and noisier than adults! My point really is that it is great to provide facilities but only if someone actually wants to use them. Better to me to provide proper facilities in a mixed carriage where people can sit with relatives, carers, their children etc or would these be admitted through the swipe card as well? The average gp appointment has a 2 week wait now as well so maybe not that feasible to rely on Gps to endorse these things.

Of course there is no 'ban on children' just as there isn't a ban on children, or popcorn, or drinks etc at the theatre but there are many stories on here about how annoying people find these things (!)

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