Do you think "good dancers" are often priced out of becoming "exceptional dancers"? Thoughts please.

[Tulip]

Joyofdance I applaud you for not getting sucked into a negative environment and removing your child. festivals are not what makes a great dancer, they can add to performance if they are not taught to be cheesey. My daughter did festivals and loved them. However some of the adults from our own dance school could get really bitchy, so I used to go somewhere away from the building inbetween dances. I thought my daughter got a lot from festivals but as soon as she started vocational school, they told them no festival type dancing, they were strict about that. Festivals should be fun but competitions being what they are can bring out the worst in some people in any field, that's life. Well done for doing what is right for your daughter and you. Before anyone bites my head off, I'm not having a go at festivals, they can be fantastic opportunities to get on a stage and perform, a real sense of achievement, team building etc.

[joyofdance]

Joyofdance I applaud you for not getting sucked into a negative environment and removing your child. festivals are not what makes a great dancer, they can add to performance if they are not taught to be cheesey. My daughter did festivals and loved them. However some of the adults from our own dance school could get really bitchy, so I used to go somewhere away from the building inbetween dances. I thought my daughter got a lot from festivals but as soon as she started vocational school, they told them no festival type dancing, they were strict about that. Festivals should be fun but competitions being what they are can bring out the worst in some people in any field, that's life. Well done for doing what is right for your daughter and you. Before anyone bites my head off, I'm not having a go at festivals, they can be fantastic opportunities to get on a stage and perform, a real sense of achievement, team building etc.

Thanks Tulip. It wasnt an easy decision especially as I love to watch her perform and she loves performing. This forum really helped us come to the decision as the advice and contributions from others has really shed some light on things.We may enter a few independently next year just for the joy of it without the drama. I know what you mean about the cheesy stuff. I have had real difficulty in the past with that style of dancing. I found some of the cheesy face pulling from some of the children really uncomfortable. I banned my daughter from some of the faces as i also felt that not only did they distract from the dancing but they were often innapropriate for her age (or any age for that matter) I alos became an unpopular Mum because I refused to let her dance to innapropriate music or do certain dance moves. I sound like a prude but I am really not its just that some music and dance moves were completely innapropriate so i stuck to my decisions. I also sound like I am having a go at festivals but I am not either, there is a lot of joy to be had from them and we have met some lovely people and made some lovely friends, its just that some dance schools are very like your Dance Moms style in attitude etc so they were really unpleasant to be around.

[annaliesey]

... I saw more tears, tantrums, bullying and general horrible behaviour amongst the children and young people (and some teachers and parents) than I have ever seen in any other competative environment. I decided that as much as I love watching my daughter dance, I wasnt prepared to pay for her to be in such a horrible environment. My understanding is (correct me if I am wrong) that not doing festivals doesnt affect a good dancers chance of having a career in dance. 

 

For me the tears and tantrums were from parents and teachers haha ... the kids got on fine especially and particularly across different dance schools but competitiveness would start to creep in with kids in our own dance school who were pitched against one another and then emotions stirred up by teachers and parents. 

 

I think our children naturally don't mind getting beaten if they can see with their own eyes why someone probably scored higher and they have thick skin and can take it all as development, it's when parents or teachers get emotional and precious, the bitchiness starts in my opinion.  

 

In context with this thread, I think having a certain amount of knock-backs at comps can prepare for what seems like a pretty tough industry later in terms of rejections and just accept that one adjudicator is going to like something more than something else. Sometimes they can benefit from just watching a competition and seeing the variety of performances and how teachers/choreographers work within different genres. 

 

Having said that, I also think children can get a bit "samey" if you know what I mean if there's too much competition work? I have sometimes been known to play competition-dance-bingo.  Here's the leg tilt, here's the turns, here's the box jump and aerial/walkover etc and it can be all pretty much the same stuff just in a different order. ... and then there's the emphasis on just plain acro.  This can all be good but I feel definitely make the effort to do other things that are less cheesy, trashy or predictable. I also think a handful of wins/medals can give a false sense of success too and it's important to stay grounded and get the technical training in balance. 

 

The main thing my dd does comps for now is for choreography opportunities so she can develop her own creativeness and be brave enough to put it out there and get feedback. 

 

We couldn't do that within a dance school I don't think. I haven't really come across any competitive schools that allow their students to enter their own choreography. 

[sarahw]

Joyofdance well done for sticking to your guns. Some of the music/costumes/moves turn little girls into teens (or older) and are awful....

[Lisa O`Brien]

It's always been the same i'm afraid. I absolutely hated the very notion of competitions and festivals when I was at a local dancing school. I just wanted good quality ballet training and argued if not doing festivals and competitions is good enough for the Royal Ballet School, Elmhurst and Arts Educational, then that was good enough reason for me too. My non dancing friends , some of whom knew kids at my dancing school who did enter lots of things, always used to say to me and I quote, "How many medals do you have?"  When I would tell them two, they would look shocked and say they heard of such and such at the same dancing school who has over thirty medals, as if this was somehow an indication of talent. I used to try and explain that serious ballet students do not enter competitions and festivals, as they are too busy training in the actual discipline of classical ballet. Don't think they understood though and think they thought I was just saying that as an excuse because I didn't have "loads of medals". It wasn't their fault of course, but it was just ignorance.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Lisa O`Brien

[Pixiewoo]

Joyofdance well done for sticking to your guns. Some of the music/costumes/moves turn little girls into teens (or older) and are awful....

 

oh I agree! 

 

Luckily DDs teacher is of the same opinion and so all the dancers from our school are dressed and dance age appropriately. Which means, in some festivals, they don't get highly placed, as the adjudicator can't see beyond the fake tan, glow in the dark white teeth and bling!

 

our dance school parents and children are all really supportive of each other, even when in the same class, and there genuinely isn't any drama, but I've witnessed some horrible scenes 'we don't come here to only get 2nd', 'we don't do this for fun you know' ( ??? !!! ) from parents and teachers of other schools, and one particular school always make awful remarks about every other dancer.

 

DD loves performing and honing this skill and also being able to take the knocks of not being placed  AND still smiling, will stay with her whatever she wants to do.

Edited August 25, 2016 by Pixiewoo

[joyofdance]

Very true Lisa. I could cover my walls with the amount of medals and trophy's my daughter has but she will probably still never be an exceptional dancer. Fortunately she is very grounded with it all. When she has received a trophy for winning a regional final or all england final she knows that she isnt the best in England or the region. As we say, she did the best (in one particulars adjudicators opinion) on that day out of those that entered. Nothing more and nothing less. 

 

Annaliesey, you make some really good points. Doing performances has given my daughter lots of confidence in other area's. She often leads group presentations at school and is always seen as someone who positively contributes. She handles difficult situations quite well and I think being part of festivals for a few years has really helped with that. In terms of the Samey stuff, I couldnt agree more, our old dance school would "type cast" the children which I understand ie let them do what they are good at but it did get very boring. Its funny because there are certain dancers that I would watch and without being told I would know which dance school they belong to. Same moves, same facial expressions etc. When there are 30 plus kids competing in the same section with similar choreography, similar music etc it can be deathly boring. I did once see a child dancing to a song that was about poverty and hardship and they were pouting and smiling all the way through. It made me chuckle, you would have thought that someone would have understood the words and discouraged the out of place faces.

 

Pixiewoo, I know a few schools like that and have heard the nasty comments. The dance school my daughter went to were like that, the kids were not allowed to mix with the opposition. I got talking to a parent from another school and she had overheard our school  principle making some scathing remarks about her school to a group of children from our school. She was absolutely outraged and put in a complaint which was the right thing to do. I wasnt shocked when she told me because I had heard it all before and to the kids at the school it was normal and most of them learnt that behaviour from the school principle. 

 

Festivals can be fun and positive if you keep away from the Abbie Millars of this world and take all the hype with a pinch of salt. 

[Harwel]

My mum provides the children for Northern ballet productions when they go to her area. This time, they needed a little boy too who my mum couldn't produce so they contacted another dance school in the area. The chaperones/mums of my mums dancing children noticed him sitting in his own and asked if he would like to join the other children. To which he replied that he wasn't allowed to as his dancing teacher had told him not to speak to the other dance school under any circumstances!!! Unfortunately it goes on far too much and I think it is a shocking way to teach children how to behave. My son has been to dance schools (not for long) where they teach through bullying and humiliation and it disgraceful.

[Lisa O`Brien]

I wasn't trying to imply that children who enter festivals and competitions are not talented, by the way. Of course they are talented. But rehearsing for a routine for weeks or months  isn't in the same league as well taught ballet technique.

[Lisa O`Brien]

My mum provides the children for Northern ballet productions when they go to her area. This time, they needed a little boy too who my mum couldn't produce so they contacted another dance school in the area. The chaperones/mums of my mums dancing children noticed him sitting in his own and asked if he would like to join the other children. To which he replied that he wasn't allowed to as his dancing teacher had told him not to speak to the other dance school under any circumstances!!! Unfortunately it goes on far too much and I think it is a shocking way to teach children how to behave. My son has been to dance schools (not for long) where they teach through bullying and humiliation and it disgraceful.

Oh my God, Harwel. What kind of message is that giving out to children?

[Harwel]

I know Lisa, it really is a disgrace. What gets me, so many parents sing these teachers praises because they get good exam results or they have children getting into vocational school and they seem to think it's 'just the way dance is' as that is what the teacher leads them to believe.

[sarahw]

How sad for the little boy ????

[Harwel]

How sad for the little boy ????

Yes, totally!

[Colman]

That's despicable: not the first time I've heard of behaviour like that and I'm pretty new to the

ballet world.

[Tulip]

I have to say my daughters first dance school wasn't like any of the above. It was very traditional ballet school, which taught very strong technique. Any festival dances were age appropriate with no tricks. Ten years ago we didn't seem to see tricks and fake tans etc, bitchiness was there, but not loud and vulgar. It definitely wasn't like what we see on the TV. Elizabeth Hill School of Dance still promotes good traditional teaching, technique and work ethic. The school is well known locally and far wide, my daughter still respects Miss Elizabeth.

[SwaybackSapphire]

Would love my DD to take park in the Prix or YAGP but it's way out of our price range. ???? Time and time again I see contracts offered and backgrounds where the students have been winners at these competitions. X.

[OnlyDance]

Festivals/competitions are (I think) an added extra that no-one *needs* to do. 

So pleased to hear someone say this - I just couldn't afford to  . 

[Vonrothbart]

I wasn't trying to imply that children who enter festivals and competitions are not talented, by the way. Of course they are talented. But rehearsing for a routine for weeks or months  isn't in the same league as well taught ballet technique.

Isn't it possible to do both without creating any problems Lisa? I don't think the majority of young dancers getting quality ballet training, who also attend festivals for fun, get carried away by any success they might have. 

[Cara in NZ]

Isn't it possible to do both without creating any problems Lisa? I don't think the majority of young dancers getting quality ballet training, who also attend festivals for fun, get carried away by any success they might have. 

 

Absolutely agree, Vonrothbart. My DD does six RAD/technique ballet classes a week, and only has her half-hour private to work on competition solos. And in exam season the teacher has been working on her RAD work in privates too. So I think the competition work is well down the priorities compared to technique!

[Fiz]

I'm not so sure about that. One girl at my dd's school decided to pick and choose which lessons she would attend and despite her success at festivals, was left out of most of the dances in the school show.

[annaliesey]

My mum provides the children for Northern ballet productions when they go to her area. This time, they needed a little boy too who my mum couldn't produce so they contacted another dance school in the area. The chaperones/mums of my mums dancing children noticed him sitting in his own and asked if he would like to join the other children. To which he replied that he wasn't allowed to as his dancing teacher had told him not to speak to the other dance school under any circumstances!!! Unfortunately it goes on far too much and I think it is a shocking way to teach children how to behave. My son has been to dance schools (not for long) where they teach through bullying and humiliation and it disgraceful.

 

This is the stuff that I absolutely hate!

 

Fancy telling a child they cannot speak to another dance school and putting him in an exclusion situation. 

 

I can understand from a business perspective that a supplier doesn't want thier customers to talk to other customers of a different supplier in case they get the feeling that 'the grass is greener' and they switch but really this is not the way to run a business. It comes across as if you have something to hide and that you actually believe your grass isn't very green. It would be much better for suppliers to take comfort and trust in what they do and not try to restrict their customers in this way... by all means find other ways to "tie them in" ie; by making the school and customer experience so fabulous they don't want to go anywhere else. Otherwise it's just the behaviour of a lazy business mind. 

 

And then there is the child's well-being. How can the school possibly justify having him feel like an outcast? It's an advert for the school of a poor nurturing environment and if it had been different, perhaps they would have attracted other customers? People talk, especially mums sitting about or picking up and collecting. I should imagine they went away with a certain view of the dance school!

 

I do hope that with social media and education and awareness that more parents and carers will come around to the idea that this is not how things need to be "in the dance world" ... it does my head in!

 

[Pups_mum]

Isn't it possible to do both without creating any problems Lisa? I don't think the majority of young dancers getting quality ballet training, who also attend festivals for fun, get carried away by any success they might have.

 

I agree. My DD did festivals from the age of 5 to 17 but they were always very much a side line, never the focus of her training. She enjoyed it,from the social point of view as much as anything and I think she learned a lot. She was reasonably successful over the years but we never deluded ourselves that that really meant anything, or indeed that the festivals in which she was unplaced mattered either.

Festivals were never her top priority, nor that of her teacher and indeed she didn't do any in the last year she was with her local dance school because it was such a busy year and they fell off the bottom of the list of things that matter.

I don't think it has to be one or the other, as ever it's a matter of priorities and balance. Best piece of advice I ever had (and it can apply to just about anything) - take what works for you and leave the rest.

[Colman]

 

Fancy telling a child they cannot speak to another dance school and putting him in an exclusion situation. 

 

We have, on occasion, caught what one can only describe as "hungry" looks from other  local ballet teachers when they realise that our teacher has boys in her school so I can understand a little paranoia, but it's still disgraceful and cruel.

[Harwel]

My mum has plenty of boys in her school, just none small enough for requirements. She wouldn't dream of poaching. I know you weren't saying that Coleman but not everyone operates through jealousy - some teachers don't really want boys either, as we know from experience, as it's too difficult for them to fit in the extra work and do something different to point work! We seemed to pay through the nose for extra everything....????

[Colman]

The ones who are paranoid are quiet likely the ones who *would* think of poaching!

[primrose]

Gosh I am totally shocked at hearing these behaviours of parents and teachers at festivals. When my daughter did them the children built really good friendships with each other regardless of which school they came from. These children seemed to be at the same festivals every year and competed against each other without any problems. We live in the south of England and I never once saw fake tans or bleached teeth. We didn't see provocative costumes either. I am aware that these types of displays may exist with disco dancing or ballroom.

[Pixiewoo]

Gosh I am totally shocked at hearing these behaviours of parents and teachers at festivals. When my daughter did them the children built really good friendships with each other regardless of which school they came from. These children seemed to be at the same festivals every year and competed against each other without any problems. We live in the south of England and I never once saw fake tans or bleached teeth. We didn't see provocative costumes either. I am aware that these types of displays may exist with disco dancing or ballroom.

 

My DD has become great friends with some girls we only meet at festivals, and was delighted to bump into some of them on a recent shopping trip ( I don't recognise them at all, to have them described to me as 'the girl who does the Alice Character and has a green tutu and the girl who does a tap in a song and dance' ... then I knew who they were!)

Edited August 26, 2016 by Pixiewoo

[Tulip]

How long ago did your daughter do festivals though Primrose, I think it was about 11 years ago too, times seemed to have changed it appears.

[shygirlsmum]

My DD also does local festivals and has not experienced any problems, no fake tan and generally no inappropriate costumes or moves also mostly friendly kids (I have witnessed some less than friendly behaviour from parents though). Lots of friends have been made with kids from other schools etc - DD encountered more bitchy behaviour at this years summer school (from voc students) than she ever has doing festivals.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Well in terms of value for money dd ended up with an hours private lesson with an ex ENB soloist for £2.50 as she was the only person who turned up for this particular class today!

 

She had a wonderful session!

[along for the ride mum]

Blimey £2:50 would be amazing value even for a group lesson, never mind q private! Wish I could find quality group lessons at that price!! ( our little local dance school charged over £5 an hour for group classes years ago!) happy days!! We have also been lucky enough to stumble on a few classes that were in theory group, but no-one else turned up for various activities over the years ( guitar and Pilates recently) but never ballet

[Picturesinthefirelight]

They are open classes held at our local council run leisure centre.

 

Absolute bargain!

[Cara in NZ]

I've been pondering this topic and wondered if you could help out people not in the UK by explaining the difference between 'festivals' and 'competitions'? I had assumed that 'festivals' was a new PC name for competitions, ie trying to emphasise celebrating dance performance over competing, but thought I should really check in case I've got it wrong? I know that Australia calls them eisteddfods, for some unknown reason, but here in NZ they are just called competitions. Can someone give me a brief explanation? Thanks!