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Thoughts from parents please!


drdance

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The thing I'm not getting in all of this is where parents are parking their common sense when this sort of stuff happens.

 

If their child was being hit by a teacher in a maths class, or yelled at, intimidated, or ridiculed in front of the other children by the history teacher, that parent would be down at the school at the speed of light, demanding an explanation and a change of attitude if the school didn't want to be reported to the authorities. Why, all of a sudden, does this sort of behaviour become acceptable during a dance class? If it's bad teaching practice, it's bad teaching practice regardless of the subject being taught. A child is going to react badly to being physically or mentally hurt by a teacher and isn't going to do well at school - this doesn't somehow magically change when it's dance being taught rather than geography.

The issue is that most state schools have a secure infrastructure in place to deal with abusive staff. If there was such an issue, you could speak to the headteacher or member of senior leadership who would then follow it up. If that wasn't satisfactory you could go to you local education authority (or you used to be able to!) or make a direct complaint to Ofsted. In dance schools if you have an issue with a teacher you can go to the principal but if the principal is the one at fault then you're kind of stuffed. If the teacher is qualified then you should be able to go to the qualifying organisation (ie RAD etc) but as people have said, you don't need any qualifications to open up a dance school.

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Abuse of any kind can be so insidious. If it weren't, people would see the true picture much more quickly. Don't feel bad, joyofdance; as parents we can only do our best and if the abusive behaviour is stealthy, accepted by others, and not immediately obvious it's easy to see how it can go largely unnoticed.

 

All this is not helped of course by programmes like Dance Moms, where the resulting fame and publicity for the children seems to be worth tolerating a teacher with narcissistic tendencies and an unpredictable temper to match. :(

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Thanks for all the welcomes everyone :) 

 

I think when it comes to parents at these types of schools there are 3 types, the ones who know all about it and either don't care or even agree with these methods, the ones who know about it and turn a blind eye as they think that's the best school around based on exam results or competition wins (both these types are likely to have been influenced by the TV programmes that have lots of screaming and mum drama as the norm) and the 3rd type of parent who is blissfully unaware of what happens. I was one of the unaware mums, my DD had mentioned a few comments made by the teachers but I shrugged it off as her exaggerating or misunderstanding because I honestly didn't think a teacher would make remarks like that. I only started to have serious doubts about the school when more and more she was saying things were being said or done that were unfair and that she was being treated badly and the evidence was right in front of me (like being held back in grades or not allowed to do certain classes because she was too young but girls younger then her were allowed?!). I had no idea how serious it was though, I thought the teachers were just a bit unkind now and again but on the whole were fair but I was so wrong, after finding out about Annaliesey's DD being smacked(and the extent of the emotional abuse) I had to really coax it out of my DD what she had seen / had done to her and the few comments she had told me were just the tip of the iceberg.

 

When I found out another ex-student had reported the school I also reported them and was basically told that because DD is no longer in danger (because she'd moved schools) they would not be taking things any further, if any other students come forward then that may change. It really infuriated me at the time but if they have kids who are being abused to the point they are at risk of death then I can understand how they would put a few kids getting smacked/emotional abuse at dance at the bottom of the pile particularly if the kids are no longer at the school.

 

Also the thing with exams / competition wins being the basis of a good school, if you don't know an awful lot about dance (like me) then when looking for a dance school what do you look for? DD started dancing age 7 at an awful school, the principal lied about so much and treated people badly but how we ended up at that one was because the website/facebook page etc boasted about students having a 100% pass success rate with most getting distinctions, so that sounded like a brilliant school. DD went to their open day and had a blast and that was the most important thing for me was that she enjoyed it, I wasn't thinking ahead to her wanting to have a career in performing arts. By the time she was 8.5 we were leaving (the school closed down a few months later as I think everyone had finally had enough of how the principal was treating them), when I was looking for a new school I asked for advice on another forum. Based on that we ended up trying a school that had RAD/ISTD classes and several different grades (the original school only went up to grade 2, again that meant nothing to me as I had no idea about grades or anything). So looking at the new school it seemed to check all the right boxes, qualified teacher(s), different / higher grades (with a proper exam board) and they again had that pass rate and stuff about competition wins, so to a newbie lots of wins and high pass rates must mean a good standard of teaching, how else would they achieve it. 

 

It's so subjective though, for example a school may brag about their group dance coming 2nd in the entire category..but if you were only against one other group it doesn't have the same sense of achievement if you have fought off several other schools to get that 2nd place. So to an outsider if they see trophy after trophy of 1st place, 2nd place, etc they just take it as face value they don't know how many or how few they were up against. Same with exam results, oh yes X child got a distinction on their ballet exam but have they just done that once a week class and worked hard at home / had an amazing teacher for 6 months or have they had several private lessons a week for months as well as spending a couple of years working on that grade. I've seen the old dance school take credit for children gaining places at vocational school when those particular children have only been there once a week to just get an extra hour of ballet yet they brag that it is down to their teaching. Again for a new parent who knows nothing about the school/students or even dance in general if you are being told we win 1st/2nd place at all the comps we go to, our kids always pass their exams most at high merit/distinction we have X amount of students who have gone off to vocational school, it all sounds very impressive and like a good school.
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 I would like to believe that some parents fall for this out of pure ignorance and truly don't understand what they are inflicting on their child. But IIRTW, all parents would be required to do at least one very high intensity work out before they were allowed to enrol their child on such a course. Just so they could feel that burn for themselves.

I once assisted my dd's local dance teacher by standing in for missing pupils whilst the 6/7 year olds were getting ready to perform, and at that age spacing is difficult.  It was a normal dance class, 1 hour long, and at the end of it I was out of breath and sweaty.  The children of course were full of beans and happy.  High intensity?  I don't think I'd survive!!

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The thing I'm not getting in all of this is where parents are parking their common sense when this sort of stuff happens.

 

If their child was being hit by a teacher in a maths class, or yelled at, intimidated, or ridiculed in front of the other children by the history teacher, that parent would be down at the school at the speed of light, demanding an explanation and a change of attitude if the school didn't want to be reported to the authorities. Why, all of a sudden, does this sort of behaviour become acceptable during a dance class? If it's bad teaching practice, it's bad teaching practice regardless of the subject being taught. A child is going to react badly to being physically or mentally hurt by a teacher and isn't going to do well at school - this doesn't somehow magically change when it's dance being taught rather than geography.

 

Hmmm I don't know where I parked my common sense quite honestly! :)

 

I've been over this in my head so many times and feel so guilty, I just don't know what I was thinking. 

 

All I will say is it was a build up of things before the penny finally dropped with me. Daft I know but I'm not to ashamed to admit it.  My dd had been dancing with this teacher since age 3 and I had never had any reason to suspect dubious practises. Yes she had a bit of a ballet m'am image going on sometimes with the kids. I honestly thought my dd and her had a little bit of a special bond, just from her being a student from a young age and they just seemed to get on in a really lovely way.  

 

When I collected her on the day that she had been hit hard enough to leave a mark and she was in tears she refused point blank to tell me what had happened until later in the evening at home when she had calmed down and could get her words out properly.  She was so desperately worried and was crying with her main concern being that I would react in a way that would "take her ballet away from her" and she made me promise that I wouldn't do that before she told me what happened.  I kept my promise but spoke (very angrily) with the teacher (also the principle) and made sure I stayed at the studio all the time and just got closer to her classes and what was being said and how the classes were being run and everyone's behaviour. The teacher basically just said she was sorry and that she had not meant to smack her as hard as she had. She looked embarrassed and I believed that it was a moment of madness that was out of character and that after 8 years with her it was just one mistake. However as I got closer to things I realised the extent of the other behaviour that I regarded as bullying ... threatening consequences, name calling, putting her down and singling her out not just dance stuff but personal stuff like who she fancied for a boyfriend and comments on her make up, ridiculing lots of children, favouritsm and inconsistent treatment, belittling. The worst part was making her feel that she was stupid. That's left the biggest mark!  And, then there was the whole over-stretching / over-training, no-pain-no-gain mentality that came with the growing profile of the competition team and people wanting to make it onto the team and just a real hunger for tricks, flexibility and acrobatics on the part of the kids, parents and teachers. 

 

I just snapped one day the following term when I witnessed an incident where my dd was made to feel that she had made a stupid mistake over something when she hadn't, excluded from a group, threatened with consequences in front of her peers in an embarrassing and belittling way and I just reflected back on everything. It escalated into a row with the principle and we left and never looked back. My dd was initially heartbroken to leave her friends and the competition team, but she actually wanted to leave and "get better training and be treated normally by a nice teachers". 

 

I had said to her previously (when the main smacking incident happened) about other teachers in the area, other options for competition work such as independent entries, and she must have been thinking about this as ultimately it was her decision for her to say to me "can I leave please and go to X teacher". She just wanted to know that if I took her away her there were other choices for her to continue with her ballet and dance. Luckily she had already had some lessons with this other teacher and dance school and was quite in love with the idea of dancing with her instead. 

 

I honestly think I am not the only parent who would have parked their common sense somewhere strange for a while given the background and circumstances. It's surprising how you can find yourself in a situation and not really know how you got there and what to do about it!

 

Please anyone reading this post, just take my advice and talk with your dancing children about the stuff that goes on in classes that you might otherwise not get to hear about. It's only by asking questions sometimes that these things come out. Otherwise there's a tendency for lots of kids and parents to go along with things and keep quiet thinking "this is the dance world". 

Edited by annaliesey
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I also think that, as a parent, it can be hard to judge a) exactly what a child means by 'Miss X was nasty to me' and B) what the experience is for your particular child and how they will respond to a specific teacher's 'style'.

 

I didn't teach dance, but i am a teacher, and I have in the past had (very occasional) comments / complains from parents about 'my child is scared of you', 'my child thinks you dislike her', 'you shouted at my child'. Of course, if a child states any of these things, it is taken really seriously and we do a full investigation. In all cases that have involved me, the child's perception of what was happening was not what an adult might have perceived (for example, the child who thought i disliked them was a very able writer, but only in specific styles - fantasy story, for example - and so when I was teaching non-fiction, the child received many more corrections / suggestions for improvement than they might have been used to. The child interpreted that as dislike) but we still always put in a plan of action to ensure that that perception was addressed.

 

Equally, in a class of children, some may 'like' me more than others 'like' me - some may find me too strict, others too lenient, some too loud, some too quiet, some perceive me as friendly and involved, others as more distant. This may be based on specific individual incidents that involve that child, but most will simply be on daily classroom interactions, and individual children's likes and dislikes, character and preferences. I suspect this may also be true of a class of dancers and their dance teachers - some students may thrive under a particular teacher while others may just not find their style and approach congenial.

 

So as parents, although the grossest of transgressions by a teacher may - and should - be absolutely obvious and something we should be aware of, it may be that the teacher one child thrives under may not suit another, just because of specific personal attributes and approaches. DD thrives under teachers who have a step by step approach and explain clearly, followed by sufficient time for her own rehearsal and repetition of a movement or sequence. She  finds frequent praise a distraction. A friend of hers prefers a much faster pace but needs more frequent praise to remain motivated and engaged.

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I am not, in any way, saying that any of the teachers cited on this thread should be in any way excused their behaviour (just realised that my post could be read in that way).

 

I suppose what I mean is that a teacher may not be the best possible teacher for a child even when their behaviour and approach is absolutely appropriate, just not optimal for that child. Over the years that DD has been at her dance school, some children have left for other schools citing the approach of one or more teachers as a reason, and some have arrived from other schools, equally citing the approach of the teachers there as a reason to move the way that they did.

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You're so right MuddledMama and it's infuriating :)

 

It's like when websites and bios say such-and-such person studied/attended at xyz college but it doesn't tell you if they actually qualified :( Or if they are vague with professional experience) or don't actually say what their teaching faculty's qualifications actually are. 

 

DBS doesn't mean anything in terms of the no-pain-no-gain type of training culture either :(

 

But I think one of the most important points you raise is that you specifically looked for RAD & ISTD qualified teachers on the basis of other parent's advice and yet we know that they don't do any monitoring of teachers or require safeguarding policies, or have any whistle-blowing set up that aggrieved parents can use other than the full blown grievance procedure. 

 

I also really dislike the RAD territory aspect too for this reason. If there is a bad school / RAD teacher in an area then the RAD do not allow another teacher to set up shop in the same area. I have a real problem with this as success I believe should be influenced by customer experiences and the provider's reputation and I dislike that poor RAD teachers can monopolise an area simply because they were there first. There are some fantastic, younger teachers, who are unable to properly compete in a heavily populated geographical area by producing excellent quality training because of the territory rules. I'm not sure if these are a best practise amongst teachers or whether the RAD prescribe this. Does anyone know?

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I am not, in any way, saying that any of the teachers cited on this thread should be in any way excused their behaviour (just realised that my post could be read in that way).

 

I suppose what I mean is that a teacher may not be the best possible teacher for a child even when their behaviour and approach is absolutely appropriate, just not optimal for that child. Over the years that DD has been at her dance school, some children have left for other schools citing the approach of one or more teachers as a reason, and some have arrived from other schools, equally citing the approach of the teachers there as a reason to move the way that they did.

 

I agree with this and possibly too quickly to my detriment. I was the first one to say "oh well you can't please everyone all of the time" and maybe because of all the safeguarding practises that we have got used to as consumers with regards to other groups, I was slow to open my eyes and ears!

 

In my case there was no difficulty in judging things as I could hear kids being screamed at whilst sitting in the reception area! parents would just tut and roll their eyes and drink their coffee :)

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I am not, in any way, saying that any of the teachers cited on this thread should be in any way excused their behaviour (just realised that my post could be read in that way).

 

I suppose what I mean is that a teacher may not be the best possible teacher for a child even when their behaviour and approach is absolutely appropriate, just not optimal for that child. Over the years that DD has been at her dance school, some children have left for other schools citing the approach of one or more teachers as a reason, and some have arrived from other schools, equally citing the approach of the teachers there as a reason to move the way that they did.

I agree with you to a certain extent Parentaxi and the reason I delayed acting on my concerns or the stories I was being told was for this very reason. In my case I witnessed this awful behaviour against other children and my child and it wasnt about different teaching styles or perceptions. It was very obviously unnacceptable abusive behaviour. The dance school principle almost had me convinced that my daughter was overly sensitive or prone to sulking and even stated that she was a spoilt child. She told me that I needed to let her grow up and stand on her own two feet. She was ten years old at the time.

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I absolutely agree that the difficulty - as a very L-plated dance mum - is in distinguishing between 'normal' child / teacher mismatch and the kind of abuse that has been described here.

 

As even a mismatch - which can occur with someone who might be the 'best' teacher for another child, just not for ours - can reduce progress in and love of dance, we probably ought as parents to set our 'threshold for moving teachers' lower (to 'there's a mismatch, let's find something better for our child'), rather than saying that mismatch is OK and potentially missing the fact that the mismatch may in fact be much more abusive.

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yet we know that they don't do any monitoring of teachers or require safeguarding policies, or have any whistle-blowing set up that aggrieved parents can use other than the full blown grievance procedure.

 

I also really dislike the RAD territory aspect too for this reason. If there is a bad school / RAD teacher in an area then the RAD do not allow another teacher to set up shop in the same area. I have a real problem with this as success I believe should be influenced by customer experiences and the provider's reputation and I dislike that poor RAD teachers can monopolise an area simply because they were there first. There are some fantastic, younger teachers, who are unable to properly compete in a heavily populated geographical area by producing excellent quality training because of the territory rules. I'm not sure if these are a best practise amongst teachers or whether the RAD prescribe this. Does anyone know?

I'm not sure if this 'territory rules' thing still applies? I set up a school 2 years ago in an area with a few other RAD schools and no-one mentioned anything, I've since had exams there so if they were going to pick up on it they ought to have done there.

 

As for whistleblowing - I think the RAD and all the other organisations need a policy such as this in place. The only other option is the NSPCC but again, when their funding only stretches so far, they're going to investigate children at significant risk first I guess....

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I'm not sure if this 'territory rules' thing still applies? I set up a school 2 years ago in an area with a few other RAD schools and no-one mentioned anything, I've since had exams there so if they were going to pick up on it they ought to have done there.

 

As for whistleblowing - I think the RAD and all the other organisations need a policy such as this in place. The only other option is the NSPCC but again, when their funding only stretches so far, they're going to investigate children at significant risk first I guess....

 

I've just phoned the RAD to ask them and was told that there was no territorial ruling any more. Apparently there used to be a minimum distance that teachers were required to adhere to under the Code of professional conduct but the person I spoke to said there wasn't anything in place now but that teachers were all expected to work in harmony but that was all. 

 

:)

 

So my mistake everybody :)  I just hear other dance teachers local to us refer to this as they are fearful of treading on the toes of other schools locally.  Maybe it's just a gentlemen's agreement.

 

... woo hoo ... off to set up my own dance school now ... haha

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It was part of the code of conduct that dance teachers should not set up in direct competition to others close by.

 

But this wasn't a law as such and it's been ignored by many. Certainly the RAD have never actually prevented teachers setting up new classes. After all, they get the exam revenue.

 

It's just good practice. I recently bought a very well established school and am confident that I haven't compromised other local schools when I've added to the timetable. But I also don't think it's good business sense to offer the same as everyone else in the town!

Edited by hfbrew
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In this internet age, I've become increasingly aware of how important marketing - and in particular your website - has become. Doesn't necessarily matter how good the quality of the product is, or how you produce it, just talk it up and talk it up - and if your website is really swish and smart-looking that will help too.

 

We should always be careful of taking marketing at face value, and that includes claims on websites. As others have noted, it can be easy to use a bit of "linguistic misdirection" to give an impression which isn't actually accurate.

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Do any of you parents know anyone who works in campaigning? Or knows anything about raising awareness? I feel like there needs to be a 'movement' or campaign by parents, for parents to raise awareness about this sort of thing. I'd hate to think of the number of teachers who teach through fear and intimidation. I don't mean a teacher who occasionally gets frustrated and shouts because we all do that - but the teachers who constantly belittle, ignore, neglect, intimidate or physically harm young people.

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Do any of you parents know anyone who works in campaigning? Or knows anything about raising awareness? I feel like there needs to be a 'movement' or campaign by parents, for parents to raise awareness about this sort of thing. I'd hate to think of the number of teachers who teach through fear and intimidation. I don't mean a teacher who occasionally gets frustrated and shouts because we all do that - but the teachers who constantly belittle, ignore, neglect, intimidate or physically harm young people.

 

While I agree with the good intentions, anyone thinking about publicly raising awareness of malpractice by schools or teachers could put themselves at high risk of being sued for libel or other such defamation. You wouldn't want to be going along the lines of publicly naming and shaming. Better to raise your concerns privately with relevant authorities, I suspect.

 

If you've seen the numerous "name and shame", "share this" posts on social media, there is no knowing the background behind such campaigns - attempts to smear other people's businesses, or falsely accusing someone, yet people don't think of that when they share the post. It can all get out of hand very quickly and unless you know, in real life, who is joining your campaign, it potentially opens you up to all sorts of legal trouble.

 

Edited for clarity.

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I would like to see a model 'code of conduct/child protection policy' put forward for dance schools to sign up to and then live up to. Many good ones do this already. It would help clarify roles, responsibilities and expectations on both sides. An excellent dance school that my dd recently had the privilege of attending for a short course, included in its literature the key phrase: 'You will be treated with respect by everyone working and studying at the school'. That's a commitment all dance schools should be willing to undertake.

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I'm not worried about libel or slander as anything I have to say is true :)

However I get the point

I don't think anyone would doubt your honesty, annaliesy. :)

 

My caution was in response to the suggestion of setting a group campaign to publicly raise awareness.

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No I don't think hate groups are a good idea either. To be honest I think the professional bodies are getting off a bit lightly and could do more for the fees they charge and the benefit of their professional membership to end customers

 

As muddled mama says she took the advice of parents by choosing an RAD and ISTD school and it didn't help or protect her child from abusive teaching one bit! She and I may as well have taken our chances with a non professional membership teacher/school for all the difference it has made

 

Any campaign as I see it would purely be based about building awareness of safe dance practise endorsed by all the professional bodies / CDET with an opportunity for anonymous whistleblowing . All that is is a red flag to investigate in the same way as their grievance procedures

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No I don't think hate groups are a good idea either. To be honest I think the professional bodies are getting off a bit lightly and could do more for the fees they charge and the benefit of their professional membership to end customers

 

As muddled mama says she took the advice of parents by choosing an RAD and ISTD school and it didn't help or protect her child from abusive teaching one bit! She and I may as well have taken our chances with a non professional membership teacher/school for all the difference it has made

 

Any campaign as I see it would purely be based about building awareness of safe dance practise endorsed by all the professional bodies / CDET with an opportunity for anonymous whistleblowing . All that is is a red flag to investigate in the same way as their grievance procedures

 

Please don't think I was for one minute trying to set up any hate groups or publicly naming and shaming! Lets be honest if I wanted to do that I wouldn't have posted here to start with.....The campaign would be exactly as Annaliesy says and to promote safe dance training for your DCs, and to let parents know that dance teachers don't have to be mean to be good.

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I think that there are a number of factors involved. One is definitely that the "no pain,no gain" attitude is still alive and well. The idea that teachers' harsh behaviour is acceptable if they get"results" is widely accepted. Indeed some teachers seem to relish having such a reputation.

Then there is a lack of understanding generally regarding the physical demands and risks involved in dancing. My son is a hockey goalkeeper and people easily see that this is a potentially hazardous hobby and ask me if I have any safety concerns. I had such a conversation with another hockey parent at the end of last season,and he was astonished when I said that I actually thought that dancing was at least as dangerous, probably more so. The "pink and fluffy" reputation of dance,particularly ballet,stops people from recognising how physically demanding it is, and I suspect many parents don't really think about injury prevention etc until it's too late.Possibly dance's status an art rather than a sport contributes to this. After all, nobody expects their child to be hurt doing an art, whereas it's generally recognised that participation in sport involves risk.

Finally, I suspect the lack of a national legislative body plays a role. Obviously there are still variations in the quality of coaching in sports but,in my experience at least,the national bodies make it fairly clear what the acceptable standards necessary to run a club are, and offer an obvious source of information/ route for potential complaint etc for concerned parents. Dance doesn't have that - with so many different organisations,and no obligation for a teacher to belong to any of them, it's a minefield for the inexperienced parent.

I can't imagine that there is going to be single body along the lines that most sports have at any time in the near future as there is such a complex infrastructure already. The fact that many sports clubs are voluntary organisations whereas most dance schools are private businesses probably makes a difference to how things run too. But I definitely think it would be a good idea if the main dance bodies could cooperate to make things a lot more transparent for parents and to challenge the archaic attitudes that are still pervasive in the dance world.

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Another hockey goalkeeper mum here!

 

To be honest I actually feel there is very little danger at all what with all the padding & the rules/care of young people is exemplary.

 

But even then outsiders who don't understand the physical risks (daily mail journalists I'm talking about you) pile in & criticise women's hockey as going 'soft' because face masks are worn for penalty corners etc.

 

It's this whole attitude that health & safety is gone mad wheras we should be promoting safer practices that is pervading everything

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Absolutely Pictures.

To be honest, it wasn't until my sons got involved in their sports (hockey and cycling)that I realised quite how haphazard dance training is in comparison. I'm sure there are bad eggs in all spheres, but so far I've been impressed by the structured,safe but not excessively officious approaches to youth development we've encountered in both hockey and cycling.

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It's this whole attitude that health & safety is gone mad wheras we should be promoting safer practices that is pervading everything

Here's a paragraph I just copied from the SiDI website on the page for teachers and the safe dance practitioner certification:

 

It is often thought that safe practice is about restrictive health and safety legislation but there are many more aspects to take into account. Research into this multi-layered approach will lead you to learn more about the necessity of understanding how the body works biomechanically to promote good alignment, discover how good injury awareness and management can protect dancers, why proper nutrition and hydration is important to maintain dancers health and performance while they dance and why psychological elements should be taken into consideration to ensure a safe and effective learning environment. While these are all essential to providing a positive dance experience, it is vital that they are applied with the specific participant group’s needs, abilities and desired outcomes in mind.

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I'm not worried about libel or slander as anything I have to say is true :)

 

Unfortunately, annaliesey, the fact that what you say is 100% true may not be enough to protect you :(

 

But even then outsiders who don't understand the physical risks (daily mail journalists I'm talking about you) pile in & criticise women's hockey as going 'soft' because face masks are worn for penalty corners etc.

 

Well, I hope then that they saw tonight's semifinal between GB and NZ, with two facial injuries :(  Sorry, going rather off-topic there.

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