Jump to content

Thoughts from parents please!


drdance

Recommended Posts

And its just not necessary to get results.

 

My daughter over the summer has bee attending an open stretch class run by Daniel Jones. She says its one of the best she's ever done and it's all about relaxing and opening up & that improves her flexibility more than anything painful

 

Proud to say Daniel Jones is one of our teachers at MIDAS - he knows how to look after your body for career longevity!

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 117
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Top Posters In This Topic

I teach martial arts, and there is a "street dance" group who train in the same building as I teach. Recently, one of the teenagers collapsed with heat exhaustion and an ambulance was called. I usually hear the teacher shouting at the group quite aggressively. I'm pretty sure that a similar "boot camp" regime is running there.

 

I have travelled to China to train with some of the best martial artists in the world, and none of them have a 'boot camp' attitude like that.

I do Taekwondo, and have also had to teach the class on occasion - we would never take an attitude like that. Mutual respect, praise and positive reinforcement are our watchwords, and we have excellent results from that. Absolutely no need for bullying or shouting or pushing people beyond their limits. We expect them to work hard, yes - but it has to be tempered with common sense and compassion.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Myself and my partner are conflicted at times re the teaching style of some schools. We dont want our daughter being taught unsafe practice and age innapropriate dances but we dont have a huge range of schools to choose from in terms of travel etc. The school she attended previously is one of the best around in terms of teaching standard but their practice is not unlike the poster that you mentioned Dr Dance. We felt that we couldnt continue to let our daughter be screamed at, ridiculed and effectively bullied how ever good the standard of teaching. I am still in touch with a few parents there and they are well aware of this behaviour but they choose to ignore it, defend it or tolerate it all in the name of good standards. If you complain or challenge you are seen as being a difficult parent and then ultimately it is then taken out on your child. The bullying behaviour of the other children is ignored and again any complaint and you are labelled as jealous because they are better dancers than your child. It can be quite nasty in the world of dance.  I love the fact that my daughter dances and want her to continue but in all honesty I am very dissapointed in the dance world. Someone please cheer me up lol and tell me that it isnt all like that and that there are good schools out there.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Myself and my partner are conflicted at times re the teaching style of some schools. We dont want our daughter being taught unsafe practice and age innapropriate dances but we dont have a huge range of schools to choose from in terms of travel etc. The school she attended previously is one of the best around in terms of teaching standard but their practice is not unlike the poster that you mentioned Dr Dance. We felt that we couldnt continue to let our daughter be screamed at, ridiculed and effectively bullied how ever good the standard of teaching. I am still in touch with a few parents there and they are well aware of this behaviour but they choose to ignore it, defend it or tolerate it all in the name of good standards. If you complain or challenge you are seen as being a difficult parent and then ultimately it is then taken out on your child. The bullying behaviour of the other children is ignored and again any complaint and you are labelled as jealous because they are better dancers than your child. It can be quite nasty in the world of dance.  I love the fact that my daughter dances and want her to continue but in all honesty I am very dissapointed in the dance world. Someone please cheer me up lol and tell me that it isnt all like that and that there are good schools out there.

 

The fact that people think that "a good standard of teaching" includes screaming at, ridiculing, bullying children is the issue. The results may well be good (at least in examinations, competitions etc), but any teaching that involves this kind of psychological abuse is NOT good. Perhaps parents are getting "good" results and good teaching confused. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sorry but if good standards are being attained by bullying tactics, that is NOT good teaching.

 

Good teaching gets the best out of everyone whilst installing a love of whatever subject it is.

 

As far as Ballet is concerned I would be very wary of a non vocational school boasting only very high achievements because that makes me wonder whether they are only encouraging the students most likely to achieve and perhaps using unsafe practices to do this.

 

On a positive note, yes there are good schools out there and I've met lovely teachers when on CPD courses.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It disgusts me that a teacher or parent think it is acceptable to push a child to the point of vomiting or that screaming like a fishwife is an acceptable way of treating pupils.  Stamina is increased over time and should be measured by the starting point, not every child starts from the same place.  Summer school should be an enjoyable learning experience not a military boot camp.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The fact that people think that "a good standard of teaching" includes screaming at, ridiculing, bullying children is the issue. The results may well be good (at least in examinations, competitions etc), but any teaching that involves this kind of psychological abuse is NOT good. Perhaps parents are getting "good" results and good teaching confused. 

 I couldnt agree more. My daughter has been much happier since leaving our old dance school. I would never under any circumstances allow her to be put in that type of environment again.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm so glad to see everyone disagrees with this style of teaching, my DD attended the same place as Annaliesey's DD and as soon as I found out about the smacking/humiliation/screaming etc I wanted her out of there. The psychological effect that environment had on my DD is still going strong now (several months after moving schools), she was made to feel so worthless because she wasn't flexible and couldn't do any of the tricks the other girls could. She was humiliated and shouted at when trying to help fellow classmates who didn't understand steps (who were too afraid to ask the teacher for fear of being humiliated). It was the little comments here and there that destroyed her confidence and I have no doubt in my mind that she would have given up dance by the end of this year had we remained at the old school.

 

Even now she snaps back into that frame of mind of feeling worthless because she can't do the splits, for example a comment she made the day of her audition at a CAT scheme was that she had no chance of getting in because she can't do the splits and the other girls can, that is all directly from the old dance school who placed flexibility and tricks above all else. It even affected her schoolwork, we were in and out of school trying to get to the bottom of why she felt so depressed why she had no confidence in her abilities or had any belief in herself, her teacher was at a loss. After she moved dance schools slowly she changed for the better and her end of year report reflected it, she was even seeing the councillor at school who noted in one of her reports that she was feeling very low and couldn't explain why, that she didn't know why she was so down but it was a lot worse after dance (just before the end of term I had a chat with her teacher and it was a lightbulb moment, the same time DD moved dance schools everything slowly improved, her work,attitude, confidence, social life, in the words of her teacher "she's like a different girl".

 

It angers me so much that this isn't a one off, we've come across so many other parents & kids around the country who have switched schools because of similar reasons, I think the influence of certain shows that have all the screaming / boot camp type environment has clouded a lot of parents/kids judgement and given the not so nice teachers the green light to mimic what is shown all in the name of creating "future stars". It seems as if the rotten teachers only care about winning trophies and having kids who can contort themselves into all manner of positions and for what? Is that what will get them a job in the industry? 

 

I don't think any of these teachers or parents (the ones who turn a blind eye or happily go along with it) are thinking of the long term damage both physically but especially mentally that all of this is creating. Something that sticks with me that my DD said when I was trying to get out of her what had gone on at the old dance school; when I asked if the teacher had ever hit her (or anyone else) her reply was "yes, but you only get it if you deserve it", it was said in such a blase way... I hate to think what may have happened had I never found out and moved her and my DD had grown up thinking that kind of abuse was okay, the relationships she may have ended up in because her dance school had groomed her into thinking emotional and physical abuse is acceptable.

  • Like 9
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Oh my goodness muddledmama, I'm so sorry that your daughter has to go through that, and somewhat shocked that this sort of behaviour goes on. The teachers sound like they need prosecuting and humiliating themselves.

I do hope your dd continues to enjoy her dancing in a more positive environment and she can put the past behind her eventually xxx

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It disgusts me that a teacher or parent think it is acceptable to push a child to the point of vomiting or that screaming like a fishwife is an acceptable way of treating pupils.  Stamina is increased over time and should be measured by the starting point, not every child starts from the same place.  Summer school should be an enjoyable learning experience not a military boot camp.

 I would like to believe that some parents fall for this out of pure ignorance and truly don't understand what they are inflicting on their child. But IIRTW, all parents would be required to do at least one very high intensity work out before they were allowed to enrol their child on such a course. Just so they could feel that burn for themselves.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Muddlemama, I am so sorry that your daughter was treated so appallingly, that school should be reported. I really hope someone has. My daughters experience was similar to your daughters but for different reasons. She was never hit, I would have called the police and had the teacher prosecuted if I saw any child being hit. She and others were screeched at, humiliated, compared to peers etc. Before leaving I spoke to the school at length about my concerns but they didnt take a thing on board. They have been teaching like this for years and because they do get good exam and competition results at best they think that it is justified and at worst they dont see anything that they do as being wrong. Their teaching style is still the same. I have been in the dance school when the owner and teacher openly criticed parents and their children behind their backs and Said some horrific nasty things. A lot of the parents attitude is, "well it isnt happening to my child". but deep down they know that the minute their back is turned its being said about them. Some of the parents buy the owners elaborate presents, they accept them then laugh about the parent behind their backs. All in all a truly toxic environment. Like your daughter, mine is much happier and her confidence and self esteem has improved since leaving. These schools do so much damage and parents collude with them so they never get taken to task. Very sad indeed.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Myself and my partner are conflicted at times re the teaching style of some schools. We dont want our daughter being taught unsafe practice and age innapropriate dances but we dont have a huge range of schools to choose from in terms of travel etc. The school she attended previously is one of the best around in terms of teaching standard but their practice is not unlike the poster that you mentioned Dr Dance. We felt that we couldnt continue to let our daughter be screamed at, ridiculed and effectively bullied how ever good the standard of teaching. I am still in touch with a few parents there and they are well aware of this behaviour but they choose to ignore it, defend it or tolerate it all in the name of good standards. If you complain or challenge you are seen as being a difficult parent and then ultimately it is then taken out on your child. The bullying behaviour of the other children is ignored and again any complaint and you are labelled as jealous because they are better dancers than your child. It can be quite nasty in the world of dance.  I love the fact that my daughter dances and want her to continue but in all honesty I am very dissapointed in the dance world. Someone please cheer me up lol and tell me that it isnt all like that and that there are good schools out there.

 

Oh gosh I could have written this myself word for word except for the bit about "the school she attended previously is one of the best around". At the time I thought it was from professional memberships RAD, ISTD etc but it was only when we started to go to other places and make a wider group of friends in the dance world that actually they weren't one of the best, we just thought they were. 

 

I completely get you when you say about other parents being defensive. I was screamed at by a couple of parents down the phone not that long ago because the school was investigated for smacking, the dance teacher called a meeting with some parents, who then put 2+2 together and assumed it was me (actually it was a different parent that reported) but I had also disclosed partial info to an organisation that were duty bound to take out of my hands.. The dance teacher admitted the smacking it to social services but said it was only once and not hard and that I and another parent were just an ex-parents causing trouble. I still haven't disclosed full facts as the case was automatically closed after social services phone call to the dance teacher.  Anyway, the point I'm making is that there are other parents still at the dance school who are well aware of the smacking and are OK with it. The reason for screaming at me was to make it known to me that I should back off from ruining this persons livelihood and upsetting the status quo for their children. 

 

Bit rubbish really but I did back off ages ago. I just saddens me when you read a headline, social media quip or comment, or see a poster being shared with an accompanying remark such as "parents be warned" you just think of the environment they must be in. 

 

As you say joyofdance anything another parent says is just defended with the jealousy, or taken out on the dancing child.

 

But despite all this I would try and cheer you up by saying it's not nasty in the dance world. Those nasty people from my experiences make up probably less than 5% of the dancing people I come into contact with. I would actually say the more mature the dancing child becomes (age/serious/wider network etc) the more they come across some absolutely lovely supportive dancing friends, parents, teachers and choreographers :)   

 

chin up xxx

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...and because they do get good exam and competition results ...

 

Sorry but I had to pick up on this.

 

Firstly who says their exam results are good? Do they publish all their results for all children? Is there info complete and factual? Does it take into account the amount of hours or private lessons? And, exam success in itself doesn't foster creativity or confidence. 

 

Same goes for competitions. It's all subjective on the part of adjudicators and at the end of the day they still have to get into college or vocational school and there's a real risk they won't make it that far if they are injured or their spirit is crushed. 

 

The head of a leading dance casting agency who teaches at Pineapple said to me just last week that he was concerned about the levels some children were dancing at. His point was about them being in their careers for the long term and not being burned out before they had even started. 

 

I do agree that exams and competitions can both be good measures of success but not exclusively and not with the amount of pressure, bitching, manipulation etc that all goes with it. I wish more parents would put this in context of the the whole picture. 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Annaleisey. We have since met some lovely people and equally lovely children. It just takes a long time to get the bad taste out of your mouth re these experiences. I see posts from parents on fb who have been treated terribly and their children ridiculed and yet they sing the most sychophantic praises about the school. I am sometimes tempted to post something like, "oh how lovely, clearly you have gotten over your child being called, fat, useless, pathetic etc or are you just choosing to ignore that" . 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry but I had to pick up on this.

 

Firstly who says their exam results are good? Do they publish all their results for all children? Is there info complete and factual? Does it take into account the amount of hours or private lessons? And, exam success in itself doesn't foster creativity or confidence. 

 

Same goes for competitions. It's all subjective on the part of adjudicators and at the end of the day they still have to get into college or vocational school and there's a real risk they won't make it that far if they are injured or their spirit is crushed. 

 

The head of a leading dance casting agency who teaches at Pineapple said to me just last week that he was concerned about the levels some children were dancing at. His point was about them being in their careers for the long term and not being burned out before they had even started. 

 

I do agree that exams and competitions can both be good measures of success but not exclusively and not with the amount of pressure, bitching, manipulation etc that all goes with it. I wish more parents would put this in context of the the whole picture. 

Agreed Annaleisey. I dont care about exams etc. I just want my daughter to love and appreciate the art of dance. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just sitting here thinking that this kind of topic has come up quite a bit on this forum. I wonder if we can put our heads together and come up with some kind of campaign either to build awareness, educate, lobby for RAD & ISTD and similar to have a whistleblowing opportunity or something like that. 

 

What was difficult for me was that RAD for example wanted a lot of personal information from me that in all honesty I wasn't prepared to give because I genuinely feared for consequences for myself and my child.

 

Another thing that occurs to me especially with the initial topic of this thread about being specific to exercise and stretching regimes is to get some of the professional bodies on board a lot more than they seem to be either by introducing a code of conduct or something like that.

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm just sitting here thinking that this kind of topic has come up quite a bit on this forum. I wonder if we can put our heads together and come up with some kind of campaign either to build awareness, educate, lobby for RAD & ISTD and similar to have a whistleblowing opportunity or something like that.

 

What was difficult for me was that RAD for example wanted a lot of personal information from me that in all honesty I wasn't prepared to give because I genuinely feared for consequences for myself and my child.

 

Another thing that occurs to me especially with the initial topic of this thread about being specific to exercise and stretching regimes is to get some of the professional bodies on board a lot more than they seem to be either by introducing a code of conduct or something like that.

I couldn't agree more. The ISTD and RAD (and I'm sure other organisations do too as I have lectured for a BBO school and BTDA college) now require teachers to STUDY anatomy and safe dance practice but I don't know if there is anything in their code of practice regarding unsafe practice. The RAD run a safe dance teaching CPD course I think, too.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

MuddledMama, welcome to the forum.  I'm so sorry at what your daughter's been put through :(

 

You ask "Is that what will get them a job in the industry?"  In my own profession, there is great resistance to it being thought of as an "industry", with the implications of production lines, "sausage machines" churning out identikit product, uniformity and consistency at the expense of individuality, creativity and self-expression, labour-saving (i.e cost- [and hence pay-] cutting) technology and so on.  It does rather sound as though the sort of "training" described above is of the "industrial" sort, but I just don't see that it's going to really avail the students in the long run - surely they need to be developing as artists and individuals, and loving their dancing, because otherwise is there any point?

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm so sad to hear of children suffering in this way, so upsetting. I would love to know which dance school it was, especially if it was close to home, as I wouldn't recommend it to any of my nursery children's parents. The worst we had at my daughters little ballet school was bitchy mums, nightmare, but teachers and principle was excellent.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I couldn't agree more. The ISTD and RAD (and I'm sure other organisations do too as I have lectured for a BBO school and BTDA college) now require teachers to STUDY anatomy and safe dance practice but I don't know if there is anything in their code of practice regarding unsafe practice. The RAD run a safe dance teaching CPD course I think, too.

But there such big gaps with parents thinking the RAD professional membership means their children are properly safeguarded. I haven't looked at ISTD so much but from what I understand the RAD do not require teachers to submit a copy of their safeguarding policy to them. I've been asking around and it seems quite a lot of RAD teachers don't have safeguarding policies in place.

 

When I read through the RAD safeguarding policies from their website a) I didn't know if it related to their in house faculty only or whether it referred to professional members and B) it had rules for things such as students not travelling with teachers without appropriate insurance but had little by way of the anti no pain no gain ethos that I remember.

 

I'd like to see things included more specifically with regards to overtraining, types of physical and emotional abuse, best practise such as allowing parents to view or access classes, private lessons with another adult present with DBS, and some other good practises as at least then a parent can familiarise themselves with it if they wished

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yes - another interesting one that my mum (as an ex primary school teacher) always cites is that if there are more than a certain number of children present then by law there MUST be another adult there. I've never read or heard that in any dance teaching material.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have always understood that as dance classes are shorter than sessions at a normal school or nursery and that the childcare aspect is "incidental" rather than the prime reason for the class, the laws and regulations regarding child care aren't applicable.  In fact, apart from when children are performing in public (amateur or professional) drdance is right, the question is not addressed in the dance world.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I do Taekwondo, and have also had to teach the class on occasion - we would never take an attitude like that. Mutual respect, praise and positive reinforcement are our watchwords, and we have excellent results from that. Absolutely no need for bullying or shouting or pushing people beyond their limits. We expect them to work hard, yes - but it has to be tempered with common sense and compassion.

 

Taekwondo is well known for having responsible standards. A friend of mine teaches it in London. Great to hear from you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is interesting because when the children's act came into force the dance schools that I teach for enquired about their obligations and were told that they have to abide by the rules the same as everyone else working with children. As we already had a policy of ensuring good supervision it wasn't a problem for us.

 

Certainly any group activity (be it sports, dance etc) that involves youngsters should have a certain number of adults per child. And the adults should be cleared to work with children although as already discussed someone waiting for a dbs check can be present as long as they are supervised.

 

Certainly in my capacity as a mentor for RAD teachers it's my job to make teachers aware of their responsibilities including being registered for public liability insurance and getting first aid training. I have always advised to avoid working alone with children whenever possible.

 

There are a number of cpd courses that dance organizations such as RAD and ISTD now provide for their teachers covering health and safety, first aid etc.As far as I am aware good practice is still covered during training, perhaps more so these days.

 

Unfortunately however there is little regulation covering the dance teaching industry. Anyone can set up a Ballet School! And even in schools where the teachers are qualified there is no way of checking that they are adhering to safe dance practice.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

This is interesting because when the children's act came into force the dance schools that I teach for enquired about their obligations and were told that they have to abide by the rules the same as everyone else working with children. As we already had a policy of ensuring good supervision it wasn't a problem for us.

Certainly any group activity (be it sports, dance etc) that involves youngsters should have a certain number of adults per child. And the adults should be cleared to work with children although as already discussed someone waiting for a dbs check can be present as long as they are supervised.

Certainly in my capacity as a mentor for RAD teachers it's my job to make teachers aware of their responsibilities including being registered for public liability insurance and getting first aid training. I have always advised to avoid working alone with children whenever possible.

There are a number of cpd courses that dance organizations such as RAD and ISTD now provide for their teachers covering health and safety, first aid etc.As far as I am aware good practice is still covered during training, perhaps more so these days.

Unfortunately however there is little regulation covering the dance teaching industry. Anyone can set up a Ballet School! And even in schools where the teachers are qualified there is no way of checking that they are adhering to safe dance practice.

Completely agree with this. And unfortunately the loophole that allows anyone to set up a ballet school also seems to apply to full-time schools and not just pre-vocational/"hobby" schools.

 

I'm just wondering if any of the aforementioned schools are CDET Recognised?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The thing I'm not getting in all of this is where parents are parking their common sense when this sort of stuff happens.

 

If their child was being hit by a teacher in a maths class, or yelled at, intimidated, or ridiculed in front of the other children by the history teacher, that parent would be down at the school at the speed of light, demanding an explanation and a change of attitude if the school didn't want to be reported to the authorities. Why, all of a sudden, does this sort of behaviour become acceptable during a dance class? If it's bad teaching practice, it's bad teaching practice regardless of the subject being taught. A child is going to react badly to being physically or mentally hurt by a teacher and isn't going to do well at school - this doesn't somehow magically change when it's dance being taught rather than geography.

Edited by Melody
  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree Melody however I have to admit (embarrassed as I am) that for a short period of time I allowed myself to be sucked in to the propaganda expelled by more experienced dance Mums that "this is the way dance teachers discipline, its a tough world out there, its the same in all dance schools, that they only shout at the ones that are talented/ have potential and various other ridiculous statements/excuses that some dance parents use to justify incredibly poor practice for fear of their child being thrown out of the school. Also parents would talk about how the dance schools were all in cahoots and that another dance school wouldnt take your child etc as you would be reported as being a difficult parent. At that time I hadnt seen some of the shocking stuff I was later to witness but in hindsight what I had seen was bad enough. I did discuss my concerns gently and professionally with the school regarding what I had seen and from then on my daughter became a target and the abuse escalated, I would never have allowed or not challenged that sort of behaviour in any other area and for the time I witnessed it I felt angry, guilty and like I was failing my daughter by keeping her there. She hated the treatment but didnt want to leave as she had a lot of friends there. In the end I just decided that enough was enough and that I was paying these people a huge amount of money to effectively destroy my daughters confidence. Anyway I suppose what I am trying to say is that it is a hard culture to break (this school still operates like that but publicly pretends to be sweetness and light with the childrens best interest at heart) and ultimately you end up having to leave. None of this is excuses, I am ashamed and angry with myself that I let it go on as long as I did, its just sometimes even the most intelligent and committed parents make mistakes.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...