prancerdancer Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 Interesting piece in the July Dancing Times - a chap called Alan Justice (unfortunate surname ) was given a 12 month suspended prison sentence for offering a product he couldn't deliver. He took fees for his dance school called HJA Performing Arts College by making false claims on the college website and by using misleading logo's. Victims of his scam were advised to check to see if their schools are accredited to the correct authorities like the Council for Dance Education and Training CDET. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 It's always a good idea to check credentials isn't it? This sort of thing does happen in many walks of life though - a friend of mine ran a business which was fully accredited by that particular industry's trade association, he had qualifications galore, you name it, and he paid a large annual fee to use the trade association logo. A rival firm started up locally, and was using the same trade logo. We all knew the chap was unqualified, wasn't registered or accredited and was using the logo illegally, so we reported him. Guess what the trade association did? They didn't ban him, or take him to court for fraud. Oh no - they invited him to join! 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
annaliesey Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 12 month suspended sentence not much of a deterrent to others though 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 6, 2016 Share Posted August 6, 2016 It's always a good idea to check credentials isn't it? This sort of thing does happen in many walks of life though - a friend of mine ran a business which was fully accredited by that particular industry's trade association, he had qualifications galore, you name it, and he paid a large annual fee to use the trade association logo. A rival firm started up locally, and was using the same trade logo. We all knew the chap was unqualified, wasn't registered or accredited and was using the logo illegally, so we reported him. Guess what the trade association did? They didn't ban him, or take him to court for fraud. Oh no - they invited him to join! Yes, I've heard of that sort of thing, too - carrots, not sticks? I'm surprised they don't issue some sort of standard "cease and desist" letter. In whatever walk of life it may be, it's never enough to look at the logos and assume they're legit: you really need to cross-refer them with the certifying body's website. And if that's not enough - as it wouldn't be in my own case, now I come to think of it! - then you actually need to ask said certifying body. Now I think of it, I saw an ad the other day for an electrician who didn't have a NICEIC(?) certification. I didn't think that was allowed ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Dreadful stories. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prancerdancer Posted August 7, 2016 Author Share Posted August 7, 2016 Two years of the students life training for a dance qualification the teacher wasn't qualified to award. The cost to the parents for the fees and accommodation is frightening. I guess if a dance teacher is qualified their credentials are always included on the web site but parents don't always know before September which dance teachers their child will be getting or whether their assessment of your child will be worth the paper it's written on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieN Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 I guess if a dance teacher is qualified their credentials are always included on the web site but parents don't always know before September which dance teachers their child will be getting or whether their assessment of your child will be worth the paper it's written on. Trouble is, those credentials can easily be fabricated by an unscrupulous teacher with a computer and the right software. What would be more useful is to use a list of approved instructors on the website of the dancing governing body i.e. the BBO have a "teacher finder" http://bbo.dance/dance-with-us/find-your-nearest-teacher I would be interested to know if there are good teachers who are not on these lists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tulip Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Not all dance teachers are qualified, doesn't stop them from being a fantastic teacher does it? If they claim that they have certificates in teaching dance, and haven't, then that's fraudulent. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 Tulip is right, there are some wonderful teachers who have been professional dancers but who don't have formal qualifications. I think it depends where - and what age group - they are teaching, and, most importantly, are they responsible for setting the actual syllabus taught? For instance, if you are an adult or older teenager going to a workshop or masterclass as a one-off, it would not be a problem being taught by a current or ex professional with no formal teaching qualifications. You go for the experience and assuming the studio has the proper public liability insurance etc. then all should be well. If you are a student being taught regularly or full time by an inexperienced and/or unqualified teacher, especially one who has been allowed to set the syllabus without being overseen by a fully qualified teacher with experience of teaching the age group in question, then that is where alarm bells should be ringing. Obviously if your teacher is in the process of gaining their teaching qualifications, and supervised by the Principal or a qualified teacher who SETS the actual work, that's completely different. As ever, it all comes down to openness and honesty so that you can go into the process with your eyes open, doesn't it. Very difficult to know what's true and what isn't, but fact checking and asking pertinent questions is a must, really. Anyway, going back to the original story, thank goodness the person in question has been caught and charged. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prancerdancer Posted August 7, 2016 Author Share Posted August 7, 2016 I was trying to copy over some of the more pertinent points that the ISTD make in their statement in regards to this chap but I don't know how you do it. It would be great to know that all the UK professional bodies have put in to place measures to help stop it from happening again. It' appears that parents may contact CDET direct for advice, I had never heard of anyone doing that before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jan McNulty Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 http://www.istd.org/news/industry-news/dance-school-in-fraud-prosecution-by-trading-standards/ 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prancerdancer Posted August 7, 2016 Author Share Posted August 7, 2016 Thank you Janet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 7, 2016 Share Posted August 7, 2016 It' appears that parents may contact CDET direct for advice, I had never heard of anyone doing that before. That's the equivalent of what I was suggesting - double-check with the accreditation body in whatever profession/trade is concerned to make sure details on the website/publicity material are genuine. (That of course presupposes that the parents are aware of the existence of CDET or any other appropriate bodies.) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 If I'm reading the news articles correctly, it looks as if the course in question was a full-time diploma course at his 16+ "college". That particular course is not now visible on the internet, although the part time school still looks to be up and running. This raises two questions: 1. If convicted of fraud for one course at his dance school, I'm assuming Mr Justice is still allowed by law to continue running part-time courses? And 2. Who - if anyone - inspects private institutions offering (or not in this case) further or higher education qualifications? I know bodies like QAA and ISI can and do inspect some colleges, but 16+ inspection seems to be a grey area with some inspections being voluntary schemes. If there's a loophole that allows some institutions to slip through the inspection net then that seems wrong when they are in charge of minors under 18. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 Anna I contacted the authorities about a 16 plus school a while back & was told they did not have to be inspected by anyone. This case (& it's not the first there was another similar reported in the stsge a couple of years ago) seems more concerned with the fraud aspect - it was trading standards who got involved- rather than welfare. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 (edited) Am it right in believing all have to stay in full time education until 18 now? Surely that must men that all post 16 course providers must be regulated & inspected by government bodies (eg. OFSTED) ? Edited August 8, 2016 by Peanut68 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 & a few of us regulars on the NAPM site have expressed concerns about a couple of other instututions. We have not been able to speak as freely on here about our concerns due to the critical posts policy as we can on there as I for one can not post under my real name due to my husbands job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 Pictures - can you clarify what NAPM is - thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 It's education or training peanut. And it's not exactly enforced. But no, according to the authorises there are no safeguards in place unless full time education is offered to under 16s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 Notapushymum.com It's a forum for parents of children who perform. Like this one but with more of a general dance/singing/drama focus rather than ballet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peanut68 Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 Ah - remember looking on there years ago when DC asked how you got to audition for shows.....I thought there was this one kid called DD (like the USA name Didi) who was just constantly out there.....& then that it was the most popular show biz name ever as there were lots of them!!!!! Only years later finding this forum did it realise what DD stood for - ha ha!!!! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 A friend of mine thought that too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna C Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 Anna I contacted the authorities about a 16 plus school a while back & was told they did not have to be inspected by anyone. This case (& it's not the first there was another similar reported in the stsge a couple of years ago) seems more concerned with the fraud aspect - it was trading standards who got involved- rather than welfare. Indeed. Although that makes one wonder if part of the inspection process would have been to check that the "college" was indeed accredited by the relevant organisations and qualified to teach the diploma in question. It seems a shocking loophole if a resourceful or concerned parent had to notice and research the misuse of logos and raise it with CDET/ISTD et al. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Picturesinthefirelight Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 I completely agree. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prancerdancer Posted August 8, 2016 Author Share Posted August 8, 2016 It appears that when doing your research for vocational ballet schools you need to check which governing body your schools of choice are accredited by If you go on the CDET.org.uk web site and all the schools accredited by CDET are listed in alphabetical order, if your school is not on the list check to see if it is one of the 8 Conservatoires if not then it might be governed by the Education authority such as RBS upper school, Ofsted The CDET logo to look out for is Aqua colour - the royal blue logo is just for after school classes nothing to do with Vocational ballet schools 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 The CDET logo to look out for is Aqua colour - the royal blue logo is just for after school classes nothing to do with Vocational ballet schools From what you're saying, the logos are distinguished by colour only? If so, that could be very confusing for someone unfamiliar with the system. In that case, I'd have thought CDET might be well advised to find a more distinctive indicator for the various categories, perhaps including some words? 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cornishprincess Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 I agree Alison..websites can be misleading if you don't know exactly what you are looking for..... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alison Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 From what you're saying, the logos are distinguished by colour only? If so, that could be very confusing for someone unfamiliar with the system. In that case, I'd have thought CDET might be well advised to find a more distinctive indicator for the various categories, perhaps including some words? And come to think of it, what happens if your publicity is only in black and white? Or is that too hopelessly oldfashioned now? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prancerdancer Posted August 8, 2016 Author Share Posted August 8, 2016 i think the important word is 'accredited' as opposed to recognised. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ParentTaxi Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 I would also say that websites can be out of date ... very glossy website still up for college gone into administration, for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taxi4ballet Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 (edited) & a few of us regulars on the NAPM site have expressed concerns about a couple of other instututions. Yes... I remember that; one in particular springs to mind. It appears that when doing your research for vocational ballet schools you need to check which governing body your schools of choice are accredited by Not just vocational schools, but 'colleges' and examining bodies as well. If the institution/governing/examination body is new, or one that nobody seems to have heard of before, it is also a good idea to check that it hasn't also been set up under an umbrella organisation and is being run by the very same person who is offering the course/exams. This can easily be done by way of closely looking at the websites for names and addresses, and then a spot of Googling to see what else comes up; and then a stroll round the Companies House website. Amazing what you can find out if you have the inclination, and time on your hands... Edited August 8, 2016 by taxi4ballet 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prancerdancer Posted August 8, 2016 Author Share Posted August 8, 2016 This is where I get very confused - if English law has been changed so every 16 and 17 year old MUST still receive education until their 18 th birthday surely a school or college or company must follow the law. Maths and English have to be offered to any student who may not have achieved a GCSE pass in these subjects or the equivalent of and the rest must still receive an education up to 20% of the week. There appears to be no one checking on this, no one saying they are the authority making sure all under 18's receive further education yet parents still receive child benefit because the govt says they are still in education. I think Ofsted or the Independent school authority should oversee every school college or company in England who claim to be providing further education or have 16 or 17 year olds working for them. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hull Posted August 8, 2016 Share Posted August 8, 2016 I think this is probably the most important thread I've ever read on this Forum - and I've read a lot over the past couple of years! I happily admit to knowing nothing at all about ballet or dance of any sort and, in the absence of any guidance from our local dance school relating to vocational training, I have spent many hours reading anything on this Forum relating to training establishments. All advice has been extremely gratefully received and our DD has now experienced summer schools, master classes and now vocational training is about to start. However, I admit that I never knew I should be checking if a college had a CDET logo on their website relating to their full-time training (not just for associate courses) or to look for any information produced by places such as the ISTD. I will definitely be passing on this information to other parents who have DC auditioning in the future. Finally, I see some training places have a SQA logo too (including some not based in Scotland) - is this something we should be investigating too? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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