Bolshoi Ballet: The Flames of Paris, London, August 2016

[Jan McNulty]

A number of people wrote positive reviews of Flames of Paris. I went to see it and found that my experience differed from theirs. Does this mean I should keep my thoughts to myself and not post on the board because I disagree with the majority?  This is what you appear to be saying. I think the board WOULD become a fan board if we all kept any contrary thoughts in a homogenised box.

 

 

 

It doesn't read that way to me.  However, people are entitled to their opinions without those opinions being belittled.  You are quite right that your original sentence was offensive but then why have you tried to belittle every point everyone else has made ... that is the way it reads to me.

 

As Sim said in her post, a good perusal of the Forum would show many differing and often contentious opinions, including ones of other performances by the Bolshoi in this season.

 

Why do we always have to look at something from an intellectual point of view to get enjoyment, enlightenment and a broadening of the mind from it?  Apart from my sole visit to the Bolshoi on Thursday evening, last week, for me, was pretty shitty.  I went to the cinema on Sunday afternoon and saw a film that was absolute hokum.  I loved it and it did me the power of good.  What is wrong with that.  OK you may have watched the same film and pulled it apart critically (which is was by professional critics) but should that affect my enjoyment - of course not.  It is just someone else's opinion.

[Jan McNulty]

I think we differ there. I recognise that my knowledge of ballet is not encyclopedic. I write a review to summarise my response to a performance and that is obviously written through the prism of whatever knowledge about ballet/music/the arts that I have. Writing the review, especially a contrary one, was/is somewhat intimidating because I know that on a forum such as this, many people considerably more knowledgable than me are likely to hold opposite views. But if I can't express what I feel, then I'm never going to graduate to a greater understanding or discover why I might be wrong if I just keep my thoughts to myself. So while it's entirely up to you not to care one iota what others think of your reviews, I have to say that I care a great deal which is why I've tried to take the time to respond thoughtfully to everyone who criticised what I wrote. Personally, I think you're missing a trick being so close-minded but that's entirely your right. 

 

 

And I think you owe SPD44 an apology for your finally, thoroughly obnoxious sentence.

[godots_arrived]

And I think you owe SPD44 an apology for your finally, thoroughly obnoxious sentence.

 

Which sentence?

[Jan McNulty]

The final sentence (sorry for typing incorrect word - should have read 'final' not 'finally') of the post I quoted.

[godots_arrived]

It doesn't read that way to me.  However, people are entitled to their opinions without those opinions being belittled.  You are quite right that your original sentence was offensive but then why have you tried to belittle every point everyone else has made ... that is the way it reads to me.

 

As Sim said in her post, a good perusal of the Forum would show many differing and often contentious opinions, including ones of other performances by the Bolshoi in this season.

 

Why do we always have to look at something from an intellectual point of view to get enjoyment, enlightenment and a broadening of the mind from it?  Apart from my sole visit to the Bolshoi on Thursday evening, last week, for me, was pretty shitty.  I went to the cinema on Sunday afternoon and saw a film that was absolute hokum.  I loved it and it did me the power of good.  What is wrong with that.  OK you may have watched the same film and pulled it apart critically (which is was by professional critics) but should that affect my enjoyment - of course not.  It is just someone else's opinion.

 

That single sentence was the only place I belittled anyone. I have admitted that it was obnoxious (as you acknowledge) and I have apologised without prompting. I don't see what more I can do. The rest of my thoughts/review I stand by. I merely said "this is what I think and this is why I think it..." No one was belittled.

 

Yes, how you and I see a performance and respond to it may differ and that's fine. Emotional response is a catholic business.  I don't think it much matters who over-analyses and who doesn't as long as we each know what we like and, in a discussion, can articulate why we've reached the conclusion we have. It's obviously just someone else's opinion. There's no disagreement there.

 

Have you been in the personal security industry for long, by the way? Perhaps I need a minder more than others on the board. :-)

[Jan McNulty]

 

 

Have you been in the personal security industry for long, by the way? Perhaps I need a minder more than others on the board. :-)

 

 

Very droll.  I have not been in the personal security industry but I am a Scouser!

 

 

And BTW your sentence about Les Mis was less obnoxious than the odious comment you aimed at another member - the one I mentioned in the post I quoted.

[DrewCo]

Just catching up with this thread. Since Stalin has been pictured enjoying this ballet, I thought it was worth making explicit (what people may just be thinking everyone knows) that...uh... Stalin would likely NOT have cared for the Ratmansky version of Flames of Paris which pretty substantially changes, re-orders, and adds to the original libretto in ways that rather undermine its celebration of revolution (sensational pas de deux notwithstanding).

 

My understanding is that Messerer's staging for the Mikhailovsky tries to stay truer to the (partially lost) original. It is a rip-roaring celebration of revolution with, for example, a revolutionary (not an aristocrat) as the ballet's martyr. I've seen and enjoyed the Messerer in the theater, but the Ratmansky only on video so I can't compare their theatrical impact. But I'm not sure the more consistent 'propaganda' approach doesn't have a very compelling energy that's actually lost - or at least changed into something else - in Ratmansky's approach. But in any case Ratmansky's ballet is more commentary on the ballet and its history than straightforward attempt to revive it.

 

The performances sound very enjoyable!

[godots_arrived]

Very droll.  I have not been in the personal security industry but I am a Scouser!

 

 

And BTW your sentence about Les Mis was less obnoxious than the odious comment you aimed at another member - the one I mentioned in the post I quoted.

 

One was uncalled for, hence he apology. The other was in self-defense!

 

You're a Scouser and I'm unpopular? You're hired. When do you want to start?

[Jan McNulty]

One was uncalled for, hence he apology. The other was in self-defense!

 

You're a Scouser and I'm unpopular? You're hired. When do you want to start?

 

 

But did not have to be so rudely put.

 

Scousers rule the World and we do not need to take employment from anyone we do not choose.

[Balletomanewithoutacause]

Some people just enjoy stirring the pot.  Best ignored.  

[CHazell2]

I would like to welcome you to the forum, godots_arrived - and I would like to ask you to keep your snide comments to yourself.

 

There is a time and place for intellectual debate and indeed what I like the most about this forum is the many knowledgeable people on here, I may disagree with what they say but I would never make personal remarks about them. I was always told if you have nothing nice to say about people then don't say anything.

 

For your information, I am greatly looking forward to seeing Le Corsaire on Friday night, it may not be Swan Lake or The Sleeping Beauty and it may have a hodge-potch score but it is a fun ballet that tells a story in the old fashioned Hollywood way and it has great set pieces. I intend to thoroughly enjoy myself. For your information, life is not all about being intellectual, we are allowed to have fun too.

 

Let's all agree to disagree and respect each other's opinion.

Edited August 8, 2016 by CHazell2

[godots_arrived]

But did not have to be so rudely put.

 

Scousers rule the World and we do not need to take employment from anyone we do not choose.

 

Probably. But attacks often beget knee-jerk defenses and let's not beat about the bush, his response to me was personal. My OP was not.

 

Jeez, you can't even win the football league anymore let alone rule the world. Wake up. Bill Shankly is dead, woman!

 

I'm thinking about changing my name to GodotsDeparted and doing just that.

[Jan McNulty]

We like to let other teams have a chance.

 

We (and the Canadians (tours en l'air) are taking over the world by stealth.

 

You could do that, or you could stay and offer your opinions without being so offensive and belittling.  Despite what you seem to think we enjoy hearing all sorts of opinions whether we agree with them or not.

[SPD444]

Some people just enjoy stirring the pot.  Best ignored.

 

Spot on Lexy, there is a name for these people.

[godots_arrived]

For your information, I am greatly looking forward to seeing Le Corsaire on Friday night, it may not be Swan Lake or The Sleeping Beauty and it may have a hodge-potch score but it is a fun ballet that tells a story in the old fashioned Hollywood way and it has great set pieces. I intend to thoroughly enjoy myself. For your information, life is not all about being intellectual, we are allowed to have fun too.

 

So am I (greatly looking forward to seeing it.)

 

As for the score, I've never said that a weak score detracts from a ballet. Only that cutting a score in key places, particularly an outstanding one, is unforgivable. Can you imagine an AD putting on a production of Swan Lake but not fancying the white pas de deux and so just removing it? You wouldn't be happy. So why should I be happy for the integral musical conclusion of Tchaikovsky's score being altogether removed? Fine, I care a lot about music but the point stands.

 

As for the rest of your post, I don't know why you think (as you implicitly do) that I would disagree with any of it. All bang on.  Le Corsaire, however, doesn't have the overt Soviet-period overtones (where art was education and thus intellect was central to construction) that are integrall to FoP so I can swallow it in a somewhat different frame of mind. And, as I said, I am greatly looking forward to it.

[godots_arrived]

We like to let other teams have a chance.

 

We (and the Canadians (tours en l'air) are taking over the world by stealth.

 

You could do that, or you could stay and offer your opinions without being so offensive and belittling.  Despite what you seem to think we enjoy hearing all sorts of opinions whether we agree with them or not.

 

That's me told! Thanks for doing it with a measure of grace and humour. I don't react well to whining and the sight of toys being thrown from prams!

[Jan McNulty]

I didn't get myself sufficiently organised this year so I only got to see Shrew because it was arranged by my friend.

 

I am looking forward to seeing what people think of Corsaire.  I have wonderful memories of seeing The Mariinsky perform it at the ROH in the late 80s.  I also enjoyed greatly ENB's recent production but I know that some people felt the scenario had been messed around with too much.

 

And, of course, Le Corsaire will have a thread all to itself by then!

[Don Q Fan]

Ahem, getting back to the ballet does anyone know if anyone is organising a flower throw for Saturday - I seem to recall that the last time the Bolshoi were here some kind soul collected for and organised a most lovely flower throw at the Saturday matinee.

[godots_arrived]

 

And, of course, Le Corsaire will have a thread all to itself by then!

 

You'll be pleased to know that I am preparing my dissertation on Byron as we speak :-)

[CHazell2]

So am I (greatly looking forward to seeing it.)

 

As for the score, I've never said that a weak score detracts from a ballet. Only that cutting a score in key places, particularly an outstanding one, is unforgivable. Can you imagine an AD putting on a production of Swan Lake but not fancying the white pas de deux and so just removing it? You wouldn't be happy. So why should I be happy for the integral musical conclusion of Tchaikovsky's score being altogether removed? Fine, I care a lot about music but the point stands.

 

As for the rest of your post, I don't know why you think (as you implicitly do) that I would disagree with any of it. All bang on.  Le Corsaire, however, doesn't have the overt Soviet-period overtones (where art was education and thus intellect was central to construction) that are integrall to FoP so I can swallow it in a somewhat different frame of mind. And, as I said, I am greatly looking forward to it.

 

 

That's me told! Thanks for doing it with a measure of grace and humour. I don't react well to whining and the sight of toys being thrown from prams!

 

Thanks for your reply, I am sorry if I have gained the wrong impression of how you would react, you certainly didn't make a very good impression in your earlier posts but my point still stands about how to respond to different opinions. Case in point, the above post about whining and throwing toys from prams - I happen to find that incredibly patronising, we are all adults here and to say that sort of thing, makes you sound holier than thou and those sort of people really gets my goat.  

 

I would prefer it if you refrained from that sort of behaviour in the future - if you would be so kind

Edited August 8, 2016 by CHazell2

[godots_arrived]

Thanks for your reply, I am sorry if I have gained the wrong impression of how you would react, you certainly didn't make a very good impression in your earlier posts but my point still stands about how to respond to different opinions. Case in point, the above post about whining and throwing toys from prams - I happen to find that incredibly patronising, we are all adults here and to say that sort of thing, makes you sound holier than thou and those sort of people really gets my goat.  

 

I would prefer it if you refrained from that sort of behaviour in the future - if you would be so kind

 

Just in case it wasn't clear, the toys and prams comment wasn't aimed at Janet!  They can't afford toys in Liverpool :-) But I think if you read post 57 (both my quoted response (which was humorous and open) and the toy-throwers response to my post (which was petty , unnecessarily vitriolic and histrionic) I think you will see why I said what I did although I do take your point about manners and you quite right!

[assoluta]

Ahem, getting back to the ballet does anyone know if anyone is organising a flower throw for Saturday - I seem to recall that the last time the Bolshoi were here some kind soul collected for and organised a most lovely flower throw at the Saturday matinee.

 

This most likely must be coordinated with the theatre administration. My past experiences indicate that they do not welcome any spontaneous flower throwing and the ushers will pursue anybody entering the theatre with a bouquet of flowers.

[LinMM]

Wow the Flames of Paris have ignited this thread!!

 

Wish I'd been able to see it ....though not a favourite of mine ....I can certainly imagine Lantratov being fantastic in main role

[godots_arrived]

This most likely must be coordinated with the theatre administration. My past experiences indicate that they do not welcome any spontaneous flower throwing and the ushers will pursue anybody entering the theatre with a bouquet of flowers.

 

There were random buds being launched Alexandrova-ward on Saturday night but they were of the variety that one could smuggle in via one's lapel, thereby passing as a fashion accoutrement (of sorts.) Of course, if enough forum members attend the same performance each could sport a long-stemmed lapel-rose to then be surreptitiously recombined into a bouquet in the downstairs loo at intermission time prior to lift off via the strong arm of Janet at curtain call time.

[SPD444]

Wow the Flames of Paris have ignited this thread!!

Wish I'd been able to see it ....though not a favourite of mine ....I can certainly imagine Lantratov being fantastic in main role

 

Whatever may have been said, and not expecting you to justify your comment, he was in spades.

[godots_arrived]

I can certainly imagine Lantratov being fantastic in main role

 

He was a qualified fantastic in my view. His athleticism, musicality and line were outstanding. His partnering was also excellent and at times his sheer muscularity and stage presence were impressive. As a study in technique separated from the narrative ballet itself his performance was riveting. In character terms, well, as I said before he was Russian through and through. I know the OTT crowd mugging and/or visceral self-enjoyment (as you wish to interpret his mannerisms on stage) have won the favour of most here but they just weren't for me. 

 

Overall, I wouldn't have missed his performance for the world and it has left lasting memories. But as I have said before, somehow I found the parts greater than the sum. To be fair, I am clearly in a minority.

[SPD444]

He was a qualified fantastic in my view. His athleticism, musicality and line were outstanding. His partnering was also excellent and at times his sheer muscularity and stage presence were impressive. As a study in technique separated from the narrative ballet itself his performance was riveting. In character terms, well, as I said before he was Russian through and through. I know the OTT crowd mugging and/or visceral self-enjoyment (as you wish to interpret his mannerisms on stage) have won the favour of most here but they just weren't for me. 

 

Overall, I wouldn't have missed his performance for the world and it has left lasting memories. But as I have said before, somehow I found the parts greater than the sum. To be fair, I am clearly in a minority.

You can't resist it can you. You have to say "the OTT crowd mugging etc.etc." Just want to cause arguement by ridiculing other people's enjoyment. Have you any social skills at all?

[godots_arrived]

You can't resist it can you. You have to say "the OTT crowd mugging etc.etc." Just want to cause arguement by ridiculing other people's enjoyment. Have you any social skills at all?

 

Oh do grow up. Please. I'm expressing my opinion and qualifying it, not ridiculing other people's enjoyment. Your post is just utterly pathetic, below even contempt. 

[godots_arrived]

You can't resist it can you. You have to say "the OTT crowd mugging etc.etc." Just want to cause arguement by ridiculing other people's enjoyment. Have you any social skills at all?

 

Incidentally, when a curtain starts to go down and a dancer positioned mid-stage goes into a full-on sprint for the front, sliding on his knees under the near fully descended curtain and ending with arms raised in a flourish milking the crowd, I don't really know what else you could call it if not "mugging."  Were you even there on Saturday night? Do you actually know what you're talking about?

[capybara]

Ahem, getting back to the ballet does anyone know if anyone is organising a flower throw for Saturday - I seem to recall that the last time the Bolshoi were here some kind soul collected for and organised a most lovely flower throw at the Saturday matinee.

 

This wasn't the last time they were here. I remember it well - a Krysanova/Merkuriev Don Q. Was it 5 years ago?

[godots_arrived]

Oddly enough, seems it's not just me. Is this reviewer insulting his audience too?: the dancing often had an ‘aren’t I great’ bravura to it. The dancers’ celebrations at the footlights with arms aloft gave a hint of Russian circus to the proceedings.

 

Full review here: http://seenandheard-international.com/2016/08/plenty-of-flames-but-no-real-fire-from-the-bolshoi-ballet/

 

More eloquent than my scribbling but I clearly wasn't the only person who reached the conclusions I did.

[SPD444]

Incidentally, when a curtain starts to go down and a dancer positioned mid-stage goes into a full-on sprint for the front, sliding on his knees under the near fully descended curtain and ending with arms raised in a flourish milking the crowd, I don't really know what else you could call it if not "mugging."  Were you even there on Saturday night? Do you actually know what you're talking about?

I was there, and I do know, and this has clearly shown me you are a troll, and hope the mods see this. Goodbye.

[MAB]

This wasn't the last time they were here. I remember it well - a Krysanova/Merkuriev Don Q. Was it 5 years ago?

 

Yes, I think it was.  I haven't heard of any plans for a flower throw, but am aware it takes a fair bit of arranging and a number of volunteers too.  If you hear of anything on the grapevine Capybara, do please send me a pm as I would be more than happy to contribute.