MDS, DaDA and funding alternatives

[Anna C]

Thanks Nana Lily. :-)

 

There is an annual report on Tring's charitable trust somewhere on the internet - it's from 2007 though. I think it said that they were increasing their "reserve" to £750,000.

[Dancersdad]

Actually all of the vocational schools are registered Charities and their accounts can be checked on the Charities Commission website as Nana Lilly points out (didn't see her contribution when posting this). They are usually not allowed to retain any profits unless specific permission has been granted by the Charities Commission and they have to ringfenced for a specific project ie the upgrade of facilities at Tring. To be a registered charity they have to provide some public benefit and this has to be declared to the Charities Commission (one of the schools, I can't remember which, at one point actually declared their MDS pupils as pupils benefitting from from reduced cost education, which I thought a bit rich using Government money to secure your Charitable status!). Dame Suzi Leather the Chair of the Charities Commission "declared war" on private schools registered as charities shortly after taking office saying they had to be more proactive about opening their education to the less privileged and showing more of a community benefit, which why there has been a marked upturn in outreach programmes and use of facilities by outside organisations. I see Tring are now trying to boost their Bursary Fund to help more people who cannot afford to go to Tring - another funding area opening up.

 

Tring's Trust is called AES Tring Park School Trust registered No. 1040330 and shows Income of £6.4M and expenditure of £6.2M

 

edit to add Tring's details.

Edited June 16, 2012 by Dancersdad

[taxi4ballet]

Hold on a minute - Tring has extra mds places but can only offer them to students assessed out of W/L?

 

Are you sure?

[Tulip]

Surely that cannot be true, but nothing suprised me anymore.

[Moneypenny]

Does anyone know yet what's happening with Dadas post 2012?

[HAIRBELLES]

Moneypenny......as audition dates for Elmhurst were announced in the Dancing Times a couple of weeks ago I decided to begin to look into post 16 options for my daughter.

 

I am very concerned with the funding aspect.......therefore I decided to ring the department that governs the current dada funding......I was advised to ring the schools and colleges concerned .....

 

Dancersdad......yes maybe had I been a bit better informed when we started down the vocational route, we may have made different choices "hindsight's a wonderful thing"

[KathyG]

Regarding the extra MDS places at Tring we were told that they had supernumary places (excuse spelling) they could apply for, for those who had been in receipt of an MDS to continue their training. We were told this at final audition not first. At first audition we were made to feel we were wasting their time.

[charlie4dancin]

According to information given verbally at auditions, there are 20 MDS awards this year for Elmhurst and 14 for Hammond. We were all told that the MDS awards were cyclical - ie the number of outgoing year 11 MDS awards become the new year 7 MDS awards (this from Hammond) so I guess can vary from year to year.

 

Angela x

 

They did say 14 for Hammond Angela but they were shared between y7, 8 and 9 not just yr7 maybe why my dd lost out ;(

Cx

Edited June 17, 2012 by charlie4dancin

[twinkletoes]

Even when MDS funding is spread across years its not normally allocated by anything other than 'merit' it simply means that all the eligible children get to audition together and the MDS is awarded from that pool rather than saying we're going to give 8 to year 7, 3 to year 8 and 3 to year 9 etc.

 

Sadly deciding to send DC to a vocational school is the same as deciding sending them to a private school and parents have to weigh up the benefits of the school against the cost of sending them (though i am aware that that may be a controversial view of things ) in my experience this is something that many parents don't realise or accept, often citing that if someone wants to be a professional dancer they need to go to vocational school, NOT something i necessarily subscribe to, at least most vocational schools are now able to offer SOME funding support even if the MDS etc is limited in numbers at least places like Tring and Hammond etc give very generous bursaries normally to help, normally bringing the cost down by 50% - 75% while although still leaving with a big cost when looking at the bill if you consider how much most parents of vocational dancers spend on classes, associate programs, travel and auditions etc makes does put things in a better light as that often adds up to thousands a year and when the DC are at school the dance classes are now included so this bill is no longer incurred.

 

There does need to be much more transparency on the costs of sending children to vocational schools and the hidden costs that may be incurred etc so that parents can make a fully informed decision BEFORE setting off and don't pin all their hopes on funding options that realistically only a tiny amount of students are able to get.

[Tulip]

Tring tend to only give a small bursary to children who have a sponsor eg forces children are heavily subsidised by the forces, so the school will offer a bursary to show they are willing to support the child. I know of other children who have found a sponsor and in addition the school again have given a small bursary. I am only talking about the dancing side of Tring though.

[afab]

Tring didn't offer anything to our DDs who both got in and aren't allowed to MDS as we don't live in the UK. The only thing they gave us was a list of charities and none could help! It was entirely on us to come up with the whole sum...

Needless to say, it was impossible!

[CeliB]

I know at DS vocational school in the States the management say that even the full fee does not cover the total cost of a student's teaching/bed/board etc. So even those who are paying $45,000 are getting a degree of subsidy. It is a relatively small school (less than 100) so class sizes are small in both academics and ballet which must push the cost up I suppose, but school itself doesn't look anything like as flash as e.g. Elmhurst and RBS in terms of the buildings etc.

 

Re other famous academies doing it for less I was under the impression most of those quoted (POB, Bolshoi etc) receive a huge stack of state funding. All Bolshoi places are free for Russian nationals aren't they? Isn't this just another case of poor funding in the UK for the arts...

[taxi4ballet]

I think that the audition process is much easier for those who already have the resources to pay for a private education.

 

All they have to worry about is whether their child is good enough to be offered a place.

 

For the rest of us, being offered a place is just the start...

[Tulip]

I don't actualy agree with that statement taxi4ballet, some people may be more fortunate than others financialy however not many people can guarantee that there will not be redundancy with jobs etc. Even with financial security there is still a lot of worry regarding the long term commitment financially that has to be made for vocational training. I presume we are only talking about money and not the emotional side of it all.

[twinkletoes]

Many parents consider alternative education for a variety of reasons, some consider the private system 'better' for their chosen career or they feel that their child would do better in the smaller classes or the children may just not suit state systems and there is a danger that we assume that those in academic private education have no resourcing issues, those who make that choice for their child's education often have the same stresses and worries as those who send to vocational school, often they have extra jobs and plough all their funds into the school fees in the same as dancing parents and also have the stress of auditioning for scholarship places to try and reduce the costs, many private schools also have entrance exams so their equivalent to performing audition tends to be academic exams.

 

I know parents who have DC's and nonDC's in the alternative education sector and both types work every hour they can and sell all that they have to put their child into the best school for them, and worrying constantly that they would lose a job or that the child will lose their subsidising scholarship funding etc

 

private schooling whether vocational performance based or academic is expensive and a constant source of ongoing worry about finances, its no longer the exclusive domain of the upper classes but widening participation and access means that more and more people are considering non-state options for their children at earlier ages .... basically any educational system that differs from the state norm seems to be expensive and stressful for both parents and students

 

i do think though that those parents considering a traditional private school know that they are going to have to fund the entire cost themselves and work on that basis, any subsidy will be a bonus while those who are looking at vocational schools don't always look at the funding first but their first pressure is to get into the school and then once that happens the panic starts.

 

i'm not sure what could resolve that either

[w445403]

I think that the audition process is much easier for those who already have the resources to pay for a private education.

 

All they have to worry about is whether their child is good enough to be offered a place.

 

For the rest of us, being offered a place is just the start...

 

I agree - no one is saying that it's easy or that they don't have to work every available hour, just that if you know it's (just) possible for you to pay then it must make the process easier. When you have to start out with 'should I even let my child try' because you know they can't go without a funded place and when you have to instill in your child that they may not be able to take up a place if it's not funded, it's very hard. For some of us a second, or third, job or the possibility of lots of overtime still doesn't get you anywhere near being able to find enough money.

 

 

Edited for typo

Edited June 18, 2012 by w445403

[BankruptMum]

Even when MDS funding is spread across years its not normally allocated by anything other than 'merit' it simply means that all the eligible children get to audition together and the MDS is awarded from that pool rather than saying we're going to give 8 to year 7, 3 to year 8 and 3 to year 9 etc.

 

Sadly deciding to send DC to a vocational school is the same as deciding sending them to a private school and parents have to weigh up the benefits of the school against the cost of sending them (though i am aware that that may be a controversial view of things ) in my experience this is something that many parents don't realise or accept, often citing that if someone wants to be a professional dancer they need to go to vocational school, NOT something i necessarily subscribe to, at least most vocational schools are now able to offer SOME funding support even if the MDS etc is limited in numbers at least places like Tring and Hammond etc give very generous bursaries normally to help, normally bringing the cost down by 50% - 75% while although still leaving with a big cost when looking at the bill if you consider how much most parents of vocational dancers spend on classes, associate programs, travel and auditions etc makes does put things in a better light as that often adds up to thousands a year and when the DC are at school the dance classes are now included so this bill is no longer incurred.

 

There does need to be much more transparency on the costs of sending children to vocational schools and the hidden costs that may be incurred etc so that parents can make a fully informed decision BEFORE setting off and don't pin all their hopes on funding options that realistically only a tiny amount of students are able to get.

 

Absolutely agree - it is far too easy to get absorbed in the 'prestige' of it all.

[Jellybeans]

I would actually not allow my child to go to a vocational school without funding regardless of if we could afford it or not as the funding goes to the students seen to have the most potential at the time. There are far, far too many people after too few jobs as it is and I think one of the reasons for this is because too many children are going into vocational training, especially at 16. I think if only the very very best could access the training an awful lot of heartache could be avoided!!

 

 

[Tulip]

Even when finances have been secured, it is absolutley terrifying thinking about job security and if the worse thing happened, how would a child feel to have to leave a school mid year. Nearly everyone is in a similar boat, finances may be secure one year but not necessarily the next. Everyone is individual. Personaly if my child had not been offered any support from a school, regardless of the ability to afford the school fees or not, she would not have gone.

[Tulip]

The only problem with what you say about funding Jellybeans is that sometimes the school gets it wrong about the funded children being the best. I have noticed this year at auditions that some of the children from vocational school auditioning for 6th form place who did not have funding were being offered places over the children who did at present have a MDS. I don't think I am explaining this very clearly sorry. Another point is that children who had not been offered funding at the schools in the earlier years so therefore were unable to go, were being offered funded places at the top schools. Sorry if I am not being very clear.

[Lildancer96]

I think it is easy to say that you wouldn't send your child to vocational school regardless of whether you can afford it or not until you are put in that position.

I couldn't send my dd to vocational school without funding and she knew this when she auditioned for a 6th form place. However, had she not got funding and I could afford the training, I would have let her follow her dreams. Lil

Edited June 18, 2012 by Lildancer96

[Jellybeans]

Tulip, I understand what you are saying completely and I am sure that they do make mistakes and that the ability of dancers can go both up and down over time. I suppose that is why I always qualify what I say by adding "at that time". I do think that, generally speaking, things have settled down by 6th form and those considered worthy of funding then probably do have the most potential in the longer term.

 

lildancer, I was talking for myself and know very well what my decision on this will be. My child knows, and has known all along, that being able to attend a vocational school at 16 is dependent on being recognised as having serious potential, which is generally acknowledged as being recognised by the offer of funding. In my view, and theirs, it would be more heartbreaking to give so much and still not fulfil the dream. Much better to divert to another dance style or related career and see light at he end of that tunnel. of course, there are no guarantees for anyone but I believe in being realistic. I also know that funding may change and perhaps everyone training will have to fund themselves, either directly or through some sort of student loan and in that case ai would be looking for some other guarantee that the place was offered on merit and not because they wanted the money.

[Lildancer96]

Yes but had my dd not got funding, perhaps because there was just one person above her on the list ; she still would have the same potential as if that other person had never auditioned and she had got that funded place.

I know that there are a lot of people in that position, with very talented children who may just have missed out on the limited funding available. Lil

[primrose]

A while ago somebody was telling me about a young lady coming off the waiting list very late in the year for a place at Central school of ballet. This young lady has proven to have been the most sucessful of all the students in her year and has secured a very good job with a well recognised company. Auditions only give a very small snap shot of the student. Some students are better at auditions than others, but are they actually better dancers. Nerves play a big part with a lot of students.

[Anna C]

I couldn't agree more, Primrose. Children have "off days" at auditions, appraisals exams and as you say, the day is just a tiny snapshot of the person. Often the result depends on one person's opinion, and they may be looking for different things. If you combine that with the very limited number of funded places we have in the UK, I don't think it's always a case of someone just not being good enough.

 

 

[Jellybeans]

Yes but had my dd not got funding, perhaps because there was just one person above her on the list ; she still would have the same potential as if that other person had never auditioned and she had got that funded place.

I know that there are a lot of people in that position, with very talented children who may just have missed out on the limited funding available. Lil

 

This is true but a line has to be drawn somewhere and we have decided where to draw ours!!

[Tulip]

Wasn't there an article in Dancing Times regarding funding. It was written by Rachel Rist from Tring, regarding her oppinion of securing funding by the age of 16, made interesting reading.

[Anna C]

Hmmm, I remember that article!

[taxi4ballet]

Whilst I am sure that people paying for a private education are always worried about whether their jobs are secure, some of us have an annual gross household income which is only just enough to live on, and doesn't come anywhere near the £25-30k fees.

 

And yes, we do both work, and no, we can't work any harder.

 

We have no option but to hope against hope that there might be a funded place somewhere, sometime.

[Lildancer96]

The article was contradicted in the letters sent out to those invited to audition for dada this year which clearly stated that it was an exceptional year and they were all worthy of a place . Lil

[charlie4dancin]

Suppose everyone is entitled to their opinions but I agree with lil and have decided that my dd should not be written off because of 1 or 2 auditions there are many other things to factor in good luck making your choice I don't envy anyone in this position it is very very stressful

Cx

[Tulip]

Taxi4ballet, I really, really hope your child secures funding. Money should never be a barrier in preventing a talented child from persuing their dreams. I personally believe the money that every school gets per child should follow that child regardless of whether that school is a vocational one or not. Also it is no one elses business regarding how many hours or even if both parent work, there could be reasons why someone only works part time. Good luck for your child, I really hope he or she gets there.

[taxi4ballet]

Tulip, I only mentioned the work to explain that we have no way of increasing our income, however much we would like to!!

 

I'm with you on the the school money - and I also think that it's a pity that vocational schools can't use the MDS money however they wish.

 

If they have one funded place left and two children who qualify for half-funding, they can only give the place to one. They can't split it between the two of them and so the Government gets half the money back.