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annaliesey

Where does it all lead?

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Just a thought but does a dancer from the EU, get any sort of preference over a dancer from say Japan or China etc etc, with the same talent, at a company such as The Royal Ballet?

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I can't comment on preference but I assume EU dancers do not need work or residence permits and that can have a big difference on availability.

 

In the past I have heard of dancers from outside the EU being delayed starting in companies or not arriving at all because of visa issues.

 

 

Please - we do not want to get into an In/Out debate on the forum.

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I understand that for immigration purposes dancers have been classed as a profession which has a shortage (no, please don't laugh), which makes it easier for people from outside the EU to obtain visas and work permits.   

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This works both ways.  Speaking as a professional dancer, a lot of European companies will state in their audition notices that dancers applying must be EU nationals, or already possess a work permit to work in that particular country.  If we left the EU, British dancers would be at a disadvantage when auditioning as they would have to prove that they were better than any EU national applying, as we currently have to do when applying for jobs in the USA.  Not impossible, but this will be particularly difficult for graduate students who have no work experience yet.  Smaller companies in particular won't want the expense of applying for visas for non - EU dancers and many of them specify this in their audition notices, including some of the smaller companies in the UK.  This also tends to apply for short term contracts, which are very popular now and many dancers are forced to rely on. 

 

It is unlikely that the employment situation in the larger UK companies would change, as ballet and contemporary dancers are already on the Shortage Occupation List, meaning that the government considers there to be a shortage of suitably qualified dancers within the UK/EU/EEA and already issues work permits to non UK/EU dancers to address this shortage.           

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In the past I have heard of dancers from outside the EU being delayed starting in companies or not arriving at all because of visa issues.

 

Remember Steven McRae, in the days before he was promoted to Principal at the Royal Ballet, going home to Australia for a while (I think he was injured) and then having problems getting back into the UK?

 

I guess situations like that may have contributed to the number of dancers applying for UK citizenship.

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Surely visiting companies could have temporary visas?

I expect so, in exactly the same way as visiting athletes, pop stars, orchestras etc.

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It has been notoriously difficult, and costly, though clearly not impossible, for arts performers outside of the EU to get visas to perform in the UK, even if the artists are unpaid or it is one-off performance. Some never get a visa granted.

 

 

http://www.theguardian.com/culture/2011/mar/21/home-secretary-visa-rules-arts

 

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2011/jun/27/britain-persecutes-visiting-artists-visa

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sponsored/rbth/society/10966838/british-visa-hell-russians.html

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Rowan you posted before me and thanks for including some links.

 

It can be equally difficult for non-EU dancers dancing with British companies to get visas if the British company is performing abroad (both within and without the EU).  It is such a very complex subject.

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If we do leave then it would be an ideal time to overhaul all such regulations - haha - too sensible a suggestion for the government and civil service I expect!!

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See my post 103 Sarah (we were posting at the same time) - it is an international issue and not just one our government can "sort" in isolation.

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As far as I understand it, although they are not in the EU, they are both part of the Schengen area, and are part of the European Free Trade Association (EFTA). Norway, though not Switzerland, is also in the European Economic Area. As part of the Freedom of Movement Act, almost all EU/EFTA nationals are allowed move to and work in the EU/EFTA area, and EU nationals can work in Norway or Switzerland, at least at the moment.

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Yes, I've seen the same issue that Rowan reports. In my field in a university, it has become increasingly difficult for artists - working bona fide performing artists - from certain countries to get visas to come to us to perform and teach. It's a really complex field, and even though we in the UK are not part of Schengen, we reap the advantages of freedom of movement in the Eurozone.

 

I'm trying to be careful of not debating the referendum here :P  but I know that ballet, like all the performing arts, is an international industry and always has been. We need to have the best we can attract to this country (both students and performers) and we need to be able to send our best (students & performers) out to conquer the world!

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I think there can be no doubt that dance students from all over the world want to come to the UK to learn. You only have to look at summer school participation to see that. One year at ENB my dd was one of 3 'local' children in her group, everyone else had come from another country. At an RAD scheme lots of the other girls were from Hong Kong and from Brazil. I can only admire the dedication of students and their parents who are willing to travel half way round the world.

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But getting a visa to study in a different country (outside of the EU) and getting one to work there are very different matters. And many British ballet students also wish to, and do, study abroad - we just don't hear so much about them. Even if you have studied, say, in America, it will still be very difficult to get a visa to work there as a corps dancer, anyway, even if you're offered a job. Once you're at principal status, it's of course a different matter altogether!

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In response to Annaliesey's question of where does it all lead. My daughter has been dancing professionally for 7 years and has recently found out she's been accepted onto the RAD Professional Dancer's Teaching Diploma course. She finishes her current contract in May and will start the 3 month course in June at RAD headquarters. She's wanted to do this for quite a while but this is the first time her vacation period has fallen at the right time for the course.  Fingers crossed she will be successful as it is very expensive to do. 

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If in fact we do leave the Eu will the DADA's at the ballet schools then only be for UK students? As currently they are open to UK and EU.X

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Can we get dancers off the UK shortage list?

I assume performing arts are on that list, regardless of the glut of homegrown candidates, because it makes it easier to snap up foreign stars who do great things for the box office. So, realistically, I don't see dancers coming off that list any time soon.

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There have been a few comments about Phantom of the Opera, can anyone let me know where to find the info for Auditions in London, DD is a classically trained singer as well as a classically trained dancer in third year of her vocational school and would dearly love the opportunity to audition for Phantom.

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There have been a few comments about Phantom of the Opera, can anyone let me know where to find the info for Auditions in London, DD is a classically trained singer as well as a classically trained dancer in third year of her vocational school and would dearly love the opportunity to audition for Phantom.

 

This was the first result I got from putting "Phantom Opera London auditions" into google.

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I started dancing at 3 1/2 - my dream for as long as I can remember was to be a ballerina. I had an amazing childhood - dancing was and still is my passion, particularly ballet. I got into RBS upper school, had three years there and then I couldn't get into a company in the UK. I danced in Germany - yes as someone recommended that was the place to go, but I missed my family and quite honestly, I wasn't tough enough to push myself. I returned to England and worked in Pantos etc - I was always Good Fairy and Principal Dancer! But panto gave me two really important things in my life. I worked with a troupe of performing children in my first panto improving their performance and it was noticed by their school principal and so I got my first job teaching ballet at Italia Conti! And I discovered that, contrary to my previous plan that I would teach when I was too old to dance, I suited teaching and I loved it! So here I am nearly 50 years later, still teaching and believe it or not still dancing. I even had a second performing career as a character artiste, alongside the teaching!

 

Oh and that second thing - I met my husband during my third panto! We've been married 42 years, and three children and 5 grandchildren later, I am still totally passionate about ballet. Sure I didn't become the ballerina I planned to be, but I am so grateful for the way my life turned out and don't regret a thing.

 

There is no way of knowing if your dancing daughters and sons will have a successful career, but ballet is about so much more than just learning to dance. There's been a few threads about what we all gain from our training - work ethics, perserverance, etc etc - I don't want to repeat it all again. Still even if after all that training your child doesn't make it - either by choice or circumstances - don't regret anything. After all - Dance is Life!

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It can be a very hard industry to get jobs in.alot of little girls want to be dancers like alot of little boys want to be footballers. Or it was years ago when i was a dancer statistically over 100 dancers to 1 job at auditions. Also years ago height was a problem aswell, as i am only 5ft 1 alot of jobs wanted at least 5ft 6.  I did ballet from 2 and went to stage school at 16 in london, i loved dancing and was lucky enough to get professional jobs but alot of my friends who i went to stage school were not so lucky. I did all sorts of jobs from musicals pantomime to a pop video, so not always doing ballet. as a carear that can be over very quickly as the younger ones finish their courses and you get older, i worked till about 25 i had my 1st child at 20 2nd at 22 and i carried on dancing until i got pregnant with my 3rd.

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