Where does it all lead?

[Lisa O`Brien]

Oh Lemongirl - it goes without saying that I am still totally passionate about my hubby!  We were in the same digs in Glasgow - me in panto as Good Fairy and he as a student at Strathclyde. I fell in love with him at first sight and decided there and then that I was going to marry him.  He proposed after two weeks!    Still my passion for ballet is so consuming that it's almost a family joke and it defines me in a way that nothing else does I think.

Dance*is*life,that is so lovely to hear about you and your husband.

[Anon2]

There is life after dancing. My dd went all the way through vocational school from the age of 11. She then went off to the Bolshoi at 16 and did two years out in Moscow. Her dancing was unexpectantly cut short. She is now at a Russel Group university reading Russian and Czec languages and so far achieving firsts in her assignements.

So pleased to hear she is doing so well.

[Lisa O`Brien]

Same here,Primrose.

[Kate_N]

And by the way Classical doesn't just mean the so called 'white ballets' - it refers to the style of ballet - there are plenty of other, recently choreographed classical ballets such as those which David Bintley produces for BRB on a regular basis.

 

Technically (speaking as an historian in the field) "Classical ballet" refers to the period in the last third of the 19th century when the Russian Imperial ballet style started to dominate European stages. The earlier period is that of 'romantic ballet' - so Giselle is a romantic, rather than classical ballet. Whereas Swan Lake is a classical ballet.

 

But that's just a distinction for a specialist historian, I suppose.

[Fiz]

I am so happy to read this, Primrose. Your daughter is often in my thoughts and prayers.

[Pas de Quatre]

For ballet history that is absolutely correct Kate, but nobody ever talks about Romantic ballet training! So for discussion puposes I think the term Classical ballet works.

[bangorballetboy]

For ballet history that is absolutely correct Kate, but nobody ever talks about Romantic ballet training! So for discussion puposes I think the term Classical ballet works.

 

I agree.  It's like "classical music" - there's a generic term for the whole genre (which is, in itself, an amorphous concept) and specifics for styles through time (though, of course, in music "classical" comes before "romantic").

[GTL]

Technically (speaking as an historian in the field) "Classical ballet" refers to the period in the last third of the 19th century when the Russian Imperial ballet style started to dominate European stages. The earlier period is that of 'romantic ballet' - so Giselle is a romantic, rather than classical ballet. Whereas Swan Lake is a classical ballet.

 

But that's just a distinction for a specialist historian, I suppose.

And, I hope, for costume designers: I found the swan-like but Romantic long skirts in the Royal Ballet's Dowell/Sonnabend "Swan Lake" just so wrong.

[Amethyst]

Great to hear your daughter is doing very well Primrose! X

[Cara in NZ]

Just wanted to say that last night we went to see the Royal New Zealand Ballet and they did 'In the Middle, Somewhat Elevated'. WOW!!!

[Tulip]

Central School of Ballet, clue in the title is also predominantly ballet. The curriculum is heavily ballet, pas de deux and point work everyday. However the school is excellent for teaching contemporary and Neoclassical.

[Mariska]

Nothing is certain though is it? Apart from death and taxes  . I have tried many times to talk my dd out of the pursuit of a dance career and so have her teachers. Doesn't work. It is all she has ever wanted to do and I can only admire her determination and that of her dance friends. I too ran into an unexpected dancer at a company pensions seminar of all places. She had actually managed to work as a ballet dancer until age 30.Her top tip was 'go to Germany' there is more work there! Very few people get to follow their dream but it would be a dull world if we all took the safe predictable path.

Going to Germany may indeed be a valuable tip. Our DS is at the State Ballet School Berlin and during a televison documentary the artistic director said, that Germany is like heaven for dancers, as there are over 70 companies. It is so important thought for children to follow their dream, even if it is a difficult way in getting there. However, we also tell our son often, when he questions the academics and should he do A-levels or not (he is only 11 now and in year 7, so still a long way to go), that it is good to have a solid education too, as a fallback in case an aspired dancing career doesn't turn out to be what one wished for.

[Pas de Quatre]

http://www.danceeurope.net/directory

 

I rather think that the 70 companies quoted includes many small contemporary groups.  Here is a link to Dance Europe's company directory arranged by country.  Hope you all find it interesting.

[Lisa O`Brien]

There`s an official Bolshoi Ballet School in Brazil ? Wow.

[taxi4ballet]

Is anyone else wondering whether there will be an effect on the dancers' job market (both here and abroad) should the UK vote to leave the EU in June?

[Anon2]

Is anyone else wondering whether there will be an effect on the dancers' job market (both here and abroad) should the UK vote to leave the EU in June?

Yes. Both dc have been very alert to this since it was first discussed as how it would impact the job market and also studying in Europe.

[Lisa O`Brien]

Just my opinion,but dancers and non dancers alike have been working abroad,both in Europe and further afield for decades. It`s not like we have only been able to work abroad since we joined then EU. But i`m not 100 percent on it. 

[Lisa O`Brien]

I can`t see the No vote winning. I just think it would throw up too much uncertainty for people. Better the devil you know,and all that.

[Jan McNulty]

I would assume that if the UK were to leave the EU we would be back to a situation where people need work permits to work abroad.  I don't know how it would affect training abroad.

[Harwel]

This is something I am certainly aware of and I have no idea of the effect it would have on our dancers seeking work abroard. I agree with you Lisa, that dancers danced abroad long before the EU but I don't know what changes will be brought it if we leave.

[aileen]

I assume that UK based dance students training abroad will pay fees as an 'overseas' student, rather than as a EU student, and that those fees are likely to be higher if vocational school fees abroad mirror the UK university sector (in which non-EU students pay far more than UK and EU students)..

 

There's also a proposal (in the UK) to limit work permits to people earning in excess of a certain amount per annum (the figure is quite high) which would exclude many dancers as well as nurses and other key workers.

[Kate_N]

Well, I know that employing people in this country, we need to give preference to EU citizens, if they are qualified for the job. In my field, we work very internationally, so sometimes when I'm selecting new staff I have to choose between an EU citizens and a US citizen (rarely is the EU citizen a UK citizen - we are just not training enough people in my field domestically). I remember once it was very even between two applicants - we wanted them both! HR stepped in and said that if it really was so equal between an EU and a US candidate, the preference was with the EU candidate.

 

If there is an exit from the EU (OMG I really really hope not), then we will all need passports, visas, and work permits to work beyond the UK, and the US candidate could have been employed over a non-UK EU citizen. 

 

And any EU citizen studying in this country will pay Overseas student fees (currently around £12,000+ pa at universities) while any UK citizen would have to pay OS student fees everywhere else in the world.

 

Disastrous all round for an increasingly globalised world, I'd have thought. And that's only thinking about those in education and young workers, not even thinking about the 2.2 million UK citizens retired into other EU countries - far more than other EU citizens who've come to the UK ...

[ballettwoshoes]

Well, I know that employing people in this country, we need to give preference to EU citizens, if they are qualified for the job. In my field, we work very internationally, so sometimes when I'm selecting new staff I have to choose between an EU citizens and a US citizen (rarely is the EU citizen a UK citizen - we are just not training enough people in my field domestically). I remember once it was very even between two applicants - we wanted them both! HR stepped in and said that if it really was so equal between an EU and a US candidate, the preference was with the EU candidate.

 

If there is an exit from the EU (OMG I really really hope not), then we will all need passports, visas, and work permits to work beyond the UK, and the US candidate could have been employed over a non-UK EU citizen. 

 

And any EU citizen studying in this country will pay Overseas student fees (currently around £12,000+ pa at universities) while any UK citizen would have to pay OS student fees everywhere else in the world.

 

Disastrous all round for an increasingly globalised world, I'd have thought. And that's only thinking about those in education and young workers, not even thinking about the 2.2 million UK citizens retired into other EU countries - far more than other EU citizens who've come to the UK ...

Yes Kate you have listed some very good points for not wanting to leave the EU, but unfortunately there are probably as many to recommend leaving too. This is really not the place to talk about it, but if there's a black there has to be a white of course. My own opinion is, if we do stay in there has to be many changes, which unfortunately will not happen, so it's a really tough call. I just hope the people of the UK, will spend a little time studying the pros and cons before deciding, and not let their hearts rule. It might not matter of course, as some experts suggest the EU as it is now, will not be around in ten years time. 

[sarahw]

Yes it's a globalised world and I would prefer all candidates to be considered equally not just those from the EU.

 

And with respect to dancing jobs - we are training too many dancers. If being in the EU is blurring the picture then maybe better out. I say this as mother of a dd.

[ballettwoshoes]

Just a thought but does a dancer from the EU, get any sort of preference over a dancer from say Japan or China etc etc, with the same talent, at a company such as The Royal Ballet?

[Jan McNulty]

I can't comment on preference but I assume EU dancers do not need work or residence permits and that can have a big difference on availability.

 

In the past I have heard of dancers from outside the EU being delayed starting in companies or not arriving at all because of visa issues.

 

 

Please - we do not want to get into an In/Out debate on the forum.

[Pas de Quatre]

I understand that for immigration purposes dancers have been classed as a profession which has a shortage (no, please don't laugh), which makes it easier for people from outside the EU to obtain visas and work permits.   

[Pirouette]

This works both ways.  Speaking as a professional dancer, a lot of European companies will state in their audition notices that dancers applying must be EU nationals, or already possess a work permit to work in that particular country.  If we left the EU, British dancers would be at a disadvantage when auditioning as they would have to prove that they were better than any EU national applying, as we currently have to do when applying for jobs in the USA.  Not impossible, but this will be particularly difficult for graduate students who have no work experience yet.  Smaller companies in particular won't want the expense of applying for visas for non - EU dancers and many of them specify this in their audition notices, including some of the smaller companies in the UK.  This also tends to apply for short term contracts, which are very popular now and many dancers are forced to rely on. 

 

It is unlikely that the employment situation in the larger UK companies would change, as ballet and contemporary dancers are already on the Shortage Occupation List, meaning that the government considers there to be a shortage of suitably qualified dancers within the UK/EU/EEA and already issues work permits to non UK/EU dancers to address this shortage.           

[sarahw]

Can we get dancers off the UK shortage list?

[Picturesinthefirelight]

The implications for that would be huge & would affect foreign touring companies visiting the UK.

[Jan McNulty]

Thanks for that very useful information Pirouette.

[alison]

In the past I have heard of dancers from outside the EU being delayed starting in companies or not arriving at all because of visa issues.

 

Remember Steven McRae, in the days before he was promoted to Principal at the Royal Ballet, going home to Australia for a while (I think he was injured) and then having problems getting back into the UK?

 

I guess situations like that may have contributed to the number of dancers applying for UK citizenship.

[sarahw]

Surely visiting companies could have temporary visas?