Where does it all lead?

[tabitha]

Georgia Ware went from Royal Ballet School into Phantom of the Opera...

I think she went from RBS to Laines and then Phantom.

[aileen]

Hi-jacking this thread, but it's sort of relevant: on Woman's Hour this morning (which you can listen to on Listen Again) there was a segment about two women going back to the Moulin Rouge where they had been dancers some years ago. They spoke to a current dancer there now.

[tabitha]

And if you want a classical job the options are even less....

Depending on your definition of classical, I think there are roughly a couple of girls and a couple of boys taken on each year by each company, depending on the year, so maybe about 20 jobs each year? Well there are more students than that in any one year of any vocational school.

 

And as for Germany / Europe, all the major companies have affiliated schools who are also producing similar numbers of students each year for a similar ratio of jobs.

 

I know lots of students have ended up bitterly disappointed after failing to get a classical job that they have spent many years training for. Some end up in more contemporary companies and others give up or go into teaching.

Edited February 24, 2016 by tabitha

[bangorballetboy]

I think she went from RBS to Laines and then Phantom.

 

Not according to her bio...

[Lisa O`Brien]

I have heard on the grapevine that practically the first thing they do at auditions for Phantom is to ask the ladies to put their pointe shoes on - to the consternation of many of the applicants!

I heard this too. I had an agent in Manchester. I wanted to make use of my Equity card as even though I  was no longer dancing at this point  I was still paying the annual subscription. My agent got me a part as an extra in a TV commercial for Bombardier Bitter. But he asked me if I wanted to go to the audition or casting or whatever it was for Phantom,as they were looking for classical dancers. He said the info he received specified pointe work. I was like, i`ve not done any pointe work in about 5 years. He asked me if it mattered. Clearly my agent knew nothing about ballet ! Edited to add; that he thought because I trained in ballet it made me a "classical dancer" too. LOL.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Lisa O`Brien

[Dance*is*life]

I do think it's important to be trained in a variety of dance genres and other performing arts in order to widen the job field.  I know a lot of people think that if you go to vocational school at a younger age, you'll have more chance of succeeding, but realistically there are so few purely classical jobs, that it might be more beneficial to get an all round arts training followed by vocational school from 16.  I know the vocational schools do all teach contemporary nowadays (it was not on the curriculum when I was at RBS) but it's still a very concentrated training.  I find that so much of my non-dance performing arts training has proved to be really useful and I am very pleased that I didn't only concentrate on ballet in my formative years.  Acting classes, for example, allowed me to prove my worth in character roles later on. 

 

It can be very frustrating to invest so much in training for a specific career and then not to succeed, but as someone said there's no guarantee in any field.  My eldest son spent three years getting a law degree at King's College London, a further year getting qualified, followed by an apprenticeship in a top law firm. However, he wanted to come home and in order to be able to practise here, had to join a law firm as an apprentice again.  I'm afraid to say that after all that, he went in for one day and decided that he didn't actually like being a lawyer and left!  Eventually after getting an MA at Cambridge in another field, he's working in business, but finds himself using his lawyer skills all the time.  Nothing in life is wasted. 

Edited February 24, 2016 by Dance*is*life

[Cara in NZ]

Was it their own choice to leave their dance careers?

 

Over the years I have been a ballet-watcher I have seen numerous dancers leave the profession at a comparatively early age - mostly through their own choice.  Perhaps people just decide that the professional dancer's life is not for them or their interests change.  I know one dancer from BRB left to retrain, successfully, as a doctor.

 

I would say that a good vocational education is never wasted because of the life skills it gives the individual no matter what life choices they subsequently make.

 

Sadly I also know of dancers whose careers ended early because of injuries.

I'm so happy to see this thread, even though it may seem discouraging to some! My DD is 12 and in our 'Scholars' (JA) scheme this year. If they are still there at 16, they are expected to audition for full-time training, but my DD is far from sure she wants to be a dancer. Although I've suggested she doesn't publicise this to her dance teachers, I'm quite happy for her to make up her mind when she is older (or if she is assessed out, it may help her make the decision!). Her other choice is to be a doctor, so that means that academic stuff can't slide. We're just aiming to keep her options open for as long as possible. Yesterday a dance mother was telling me how her 9-yr-old has been identified as 'very talented', and I tried to be enthusiastic... but I'm quite realistic now that it's not a fabulous career unless it's the *only* thing in the world you want to do!

 

Edited to add: The best thing by far about dancing has been the increase in confidence it has given a fundamentally shy and cautious child. That is something I think she will keep whether she carries on dancing or not. So I'm grateful for all the opportunities it has given her to bring her out of her shell and allow her to shine!

Edited February 24, 2016 by Cara in NZ

[annaliesey]

Hi-jacking this thread, but it's sort of relevant: on Woman's Hour this morning (which you can listen to on Listen Again) there was a segment about two women going back to the Moulin Rouge where they had been dancers some years ago. They spoke to a current dancer there now.

What did they say?

[aileen]

Well, the ex-dancers were just reminiscing really (there was mention of G-strings which they hadn't come across before they joined the show). The current dancer mentioned injuries and dancing topless. I think that she said that you had a choice about this. Weight was discussed as well. These days, the matter would be raised with you discreetly if management felt that you had gained too much weight (the ex-dancers said that in their day this was raised with you publicly, which was humiliating). The current dancer enjoyed dancing in the show; she had previously danced on cruise ships.

[tabitha]

Not according to her bio...

Yes you're right. Her contract with Phantom wasn't listed along with the other graduate contracts in 2013 in the end of year performance programme.

Edited February 25, 2016 by tabitha

[Kate_N]

About the "classical job" - as far as I know (two professional dancers in the family), any ballet company will do all sorts of dance, so I think anyone aspiring to a "classical job" has unrealistic expectations or maybe limited knowledge of the current dance scene internationally. I think part of the problem is making the transition from being the very talented one in a suburban ballet school for children, maybe run by someone with the requisite RAD certificates but not much other experience, and working as a performing arts professional. The best vocational schools train dancers for the dance world, so they can work with a wide range of choreographers who make contemporary art. And part of any dancer's education should be seeing as wide a range of dance as is available in their area. Not just the white ballets ... 

[Fiz]

You are so right, Kate. My dds had a wonderful ballet teacher at a very successful school but she told me quite candidly that despite her many pupils who were JAs and SAs, even her very best dancer would not make it as a professional dancer. I have stayed in contact with a couple of the girls and they both made it to good 18+ vocational schools but both of them are working as personal fitness trainers. One in particular was a beautiful dancer.

[daisybell]

Haven't posted on here for a few years but a friend told me about this thread. My daughter is in Phantom and I just wanted to say that they are all ballet trained and have all been to a vocational ballet schools including RBS, Elmhurst and Central. My daughter danced in the Czech Republic for 3 years before returning to the Uk to dance in Phantom. She is the first cover Meg and yes she does wear a microphone as Meg but she also wears one in her role as one of the ballet girls. They can all sing and if they get down to the final few in the audition they have to sing a solo as well as dance.

They warm up before every show and have a lovely studio space at the very top of the theatre in the Dome and they are very very well looked after...far better in my experience than she ever was when dancing abroad..but that's another story!

For what it's worth I have never seen my daughter so happy. She adores her ballet and takes classes at Pineapple etc but her life in Musical theatre over the last couple of years has been amazing. 

[Lisa O`Brien]

Well, the ex-dancers were just reminiscing really (there was mention of G-strings which they hadn't come across before they joined the show). The current dancer mentioned injuries and dancing topless. I think that she said that you had a choice about this. Weight was discussed as well. These days, the matter would be raised with you discreetly if management felt that you had gained too much weight (the ex-dancers said that in their day this was raised with you publicly, which was humiliating). The current dancer enjoyed dancing in the show; she had previously danced on cruise ships.

It was funny the part about G-Strings.[i didn`t hear the radio programme,but the story was on the BBC website,which an ex Moulin dancer posted to the "I Was A Moulin Rouge Showgirl" Facebook page. We had finished rehearsals,which lasted for two weeks. Were due in the next couple of days to be fitted for our costumes,and our dance captain,Caroline told us all,"Don`t forget to buy your own personal G Strings". At 19,and my first job, I didn`t even know what a G-String was. In fact the only G-String I was familiar was the piece of music,"Air on a G-String".!!!

[TippyTippy]

Daisybell a huge well done to your daughter!!! What a success she is and at such a young age!!

How exciting for her to be doing what she loves and in London - absolutely fabulous!!!!!

A real role model for upcoming stars in their eyes ballet girls I'd say.

[daisybell]

Thank you Tippy Tippy.

For what it's worth with my limited knowledge of this mad ballet world....you just have to go with it! The training they get will stay with them forever...whatever they finally end up doing. I know two wonderful dancers who have now re trained as personal fitness instructors and are doing very well indeed. Others that have remained in companies (some happy, others not so). Some like my daughter have gone into musical theatre and others who have gone back to study and do something completely different. 

It is a very rocky road at times. You worry for them constantly, where will the next job come from, where will they end up living/working, will they earn enough to support themselves...the list goes on! When it's good it can be amazing...when it isn't it's really hard. You just have to go with it I'm afraid x

[Fiz]

Sorry, I should have made clear that I mean a professional ballet dancer.

[rowan]

I do think you need to go into it with your eyes very wide open. I believe it’s a misnomer to regard the vocational schools as vocational schools – because the chances of dance/ballet becoming your vocation/job are so small. If we had full-time vocational schools at the age of 11 for teaching plumbing and carpentry, etc, you would be more likely to be employed in those fields and those truly would be vocational schools. The problem is that it takes so many years to train a dancer that it needs the specialised training from an early age to enable the one percent (whatever the statistic is) of the year group to have a chance of gaining employment as dancers. The vocational schools would be better regarded as being normal schools that have a specialism in dance, and thus expectations of them might be more realistic.

[Harwel]

One of my dearest friends first job out of vocational school was a ballet girl in Phantom (she would be the first to say she can't sing - not through want of trying - it was 30 years ago, so maybe the criteria has changed now, like so many other things). It led to many wonderful jobs in musical theatre, both here and abroad. She really had a ball, earned good money and kept going till she was mid 30's. I call that a very successful career. It wasn't what we talked about when we were at ballet school, but life has other plans for you sometimes and who cares as long as you are happy.

[Picturesinthefirelight]

Things have changed a lot now mostly due to cuts.

 

Large shows like phantom (& cruise ships etc) used to employ ensemble singers who were separate to the dancers.

 

Now budgets are limited, cast sizes are smaller & they are expected to be able to do both.

[Harwel]

Things have changed a lot now mostly due to cuts.

 

Large shows like phantom (& cruise ships etc) used to employ ensemble singers who were separate to the dancers.

 

Now budgets are limited, cast sizes are smaller & they are expected to be able to do both.

Makes sense. Multi talented and multi skilled is the name of the game.

[Moneypenny]

The key message I have kept hearing over the last few years is versatility, versatility, versatility! There are of course no guarantees and what I have learnt over the years is that as a parent you have to manage your own expectations, manage your dc's expectations, grab every opportunity and hope for the best. On dd's dance journey we have experienced some incredible highs and some challenging times, but wouldn't change a thing. Of course I want nothing more than for her to succeed, but the dance journey is a fragile and unpredictable one for many reasons. In any event, she has had a unique school/life experience which has shaped her and will stay with her forever.

[Kate_N]

Wonderful attitude, Moneypenny. Wonderful post!

[2dancersmum]

Versatility and no guarantees - yes I think that about sums it up!

 

I would like to point out though that requirements for cruise line auditions do vary. Some audition for 'Dancers who sing' or 'Singers who dance' but others separate their auditions into separate singer and dance audition days. In other words, there are still plenty of auditions where a dancer will not be asked to sing.

[Lemongirl]

We've been married 42 years, and three children and 5 grandchildren later, I am still totally passionate about ballet

 

I thought this was going to say you are still passionate about your husband!    Although I'm sure you are as well!

[tabitha]

About the "classical job" - as far as I know (two professional dancers in the family), any ballet company will do all sorts of dance, so I think anyone aspiring to a "classical job" has unrealistic expectations or maybe limited knowledge of the current dance scene internationally. I think part of the problem is making the transition from being the very talented one in a suburban ballet school for children, maybe run by someone with the requisite RAD certificates but not much other experience, and working as a performing arts professional. The best vocational schools train dancers for the dance world, so they can work with a wide range of choreographers who make contemporary art. And part of any dancer's education should be seeing as wide a range of dance as is available in their area. Not just the white ballets ...

 

Yes ballet companies do 'all sorts of dance' but there are those who do a large proportion of classical ballet with some contemporary ballet e,g Royal Ballet, and there are those which do mostly contemporary ballet with little or no classical e,g. Rambert. And then there is contemporary dance (as opposed to contemporary ballet). Yes you have to be versatile but when most of your training has been classical ballet and that's your love, it's disheartening to join a company where there is little or no classical, even if you can do other genres of dance. And by the way Classical doesn't just mean the so called 'white ballets' - it refers to the style of ballet - there are plenty of other, recently choreographed classical ballets such as those which David Bintley produces for BRB on a regular basis.

[rowan]

I do think finances have to be taken into consideration, both in terms of cost of training and also expected salary if the dancer manages to get a job. In terms of training, once you’ve exhausted all ways and means of reducing the cost through whatever scholarships and awards you can get, and it is still too expensive, I think you should stop. That stopping point will be different for different people. Mine never did things like master classes, private lessons, or things like EYB – all too expensive for us.

 

In terms of salary expectations, young people need to look at what they want out of life – and that will change as they get older. It’s all very well to say “do what makes you happy”, but if they come from a background where parents can afford to run a car, or have holidays, or they assume that having a smartphone is “normal”, it might be a shock to realise that they might never be able to have these things themselves – even if they are “lucky and talented enough” to be a jobbing ballet dancer. Most don't even get that far. And at some point they will have to do something else - and they are likely going to need money to retrain for that, as well. How are they going to pay for it? "Marry someone rich," is DD's answer!

[Anon2]

Are there any schools that teach only classical ballet? The upper schools are preparing their pupils for a career in the industry and I remember before starting the upper school audition round being told that they have to keep records on where their alumni get contracts for three years post graduation. Their future funding from the government depended on it.

And as Moneyperny said we are constantly being told they are preparing versatile dancers as this is what all companies want.

[Vonrothbart]

Makes sense. Multi talented and multi skilled is the name of the game.

Very true Harwell, I think it applies to life in general nowadays. I have a friend who I went to school with, that was when he decided to turn up, so he obviously didn't do at all well in exams etc. I still meet up with him occasionally, and to cut a long story short, he is what I would call very very intelligent. He achieved all his knowledge by spending hours and hours over the years, reading books in a cabin on board ship. He's ended up with a fortune, after working for an American company all over the world, not bad for someone who didn't specialise in any one subject, but knows a little about almost everything.

[tabitha]

Are there any schools that teach only classical ballet? The upper schools are preparing their pupils for a career in the industry and I remember before starting the upper school audition round being told that they have to keep records on where their alumni get contracts for three years post graduation. Their future funding from the government depended on it.

And as Moneyperny said we are constantly being told they are preparing versatile dancers as this is what all companies want.

 

Well schools such as RBS, ENBS and Elmhurst teach mostly classical ballet and that is their predominant genre. They also teach other genres e.g. they may have a couple of contemporary ballet lessons a week or even a flamenco class, but that is a small fraction of the time spent on classical.  Many of the other schools teach classical ballet as the foundation of all dance styles but tend to focus on a more rounded curriculum and wouldn't expect the amount of training time on classical ballet to be sufficient to land them a job at say the Royal Ballet. So yes in theory all schools teach a variety of skills but in practice they tend to specialise.

[2dancersmum]

I think any school that offers the Trinity level 6 diploma in Professional Dance as the qualification has to teach another style to a professional level as the diploma requires students to be assessed in two disciplines. This is for both technique and performance as far as I am aware.

[Dance*is*life]

Oh Lemongirl - it goes without saying that I am still totally passionate about my hubby!  We were in the same digs in Glasgow - me in panto as Good Fairy and he as a student at Strathclyde. I fell in love with him at first sight and decided there and then that I was going to marry him.  He proposed after two weeks!    Still my passion for ballet is so consuming that it's almost a family joke and it defines me in a way that nothing else does I think.

[primrose]

There is life after dancing. My dd went all the way through vocational school from the age of 11. She then went off to the Bolshoi at 16 and did two years out in Moscow. Her dancing was unexpectantly cut short. She is now at a Russel Group university reading Russian and Czec languages and so far achieving firsts in her assignements.