aileen Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I studied The Merchant of Venice for 'O' Level English Lit in the 1970s and found it a very powerful play. However, in the last three decades it seems to have fallen out of fashion, probably due to concerns about racial stereotyping. I think that it's a shame because the play is much more sophisticated and the characters much more complex than a cursory knowledge of the play suggests. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colman Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Performance culture is a living thing and changes in every time and place - for example, I can't imagine many forumites being happy if crowds at the opera house still ate, flirted, wandered around and cat-called the performers as they did in the early years of Italian opera. You haven't met our four-year old. He'd be very happy. And let's not revisit the teenagers chomping pop-corn during Romeo and Juliet's balcony scene, shall we? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) I don't think The Merchant is unfashionable aileen. I've seen at least two RSC productions in the past few years and there was the Al Pacino film. But the point is that you wouldn't perform it now in the same way as they would in the 19th century, with Shylock as stereotypical monster. He is a nuanced character, unsympathetic of course, but recent productions tend to portray him (perfectly possible without bending the script) as bitter because of the treatment he receives from the Venetians, rather than simply innately grasping and vindictive because he is Jewish. I am not saying, and no sensible person would, that all minority characters need to be portrayed in a positive light (only the Richard Littlejohns of this world simplify PC arguments to that extent in order to dismiss them) but that they need to be portrayed as complex human beings. Which, as you rightly say, Shakespeare gives us the script to do! Edited November 25, 2015 by Lindsay 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SMballet Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Sorry, what is "PC" (non native , non british, speaker here, apologies)? I don't understand much of what any of you have said above, but I will try to explain why I felt uncomfortable with the way gypsies were portrayed in the ballet: mainly because they were shown in Act II as harassing the other people who were walking near the camp, and in the end tied up and beat up the Youing Man. I did not object to the colourful clothes or anything like that. I just know that "gysies" till today are treated horribly wherever they live, and are viewed with suspicion as outsiders and thieves and I don't like it. Sorry. it makes me uncomfortable. In no way was I saying at all that the ballet should be suppressed, and I thought what I wrote last night made it clear that I absolutely loved it. And nowhere was I saying that Sleeping Beauty etc should be changed. It is just: there is a disadvantaged group, who continue to be disadvantaged and mistreated and mis represented today, and I felt uncomfortable watching them "stealing" and "beating" and "harassing" innocent people in the ballet. Because that is NOT a fair or in any way true depiction of these people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 But Janet, a performance taking place today, even of a work which was created many years ago is not an historic event. Performance culture is a living thing and changes in every time and place - for example, I can't imagine many forumites being happy if crowds at the opera house still ate, flirted, wandered around and cat-called the performers as they did in the early years of Italian opera. The same applies to the performances on stage - art which is set in aspic is missing the point. I am just wondering what the point is that is being missed? If every generation changes an original creation to suit themselves, you lose the original intent. And who decides what is and isn't acceptable? I've heard of Women's Lib storming productions of The Taming of the Shrew, deeming it totally unacceptable, and labelling Shakespeare a misogynist . I am as much in favour of liberation for women as the next woman, but I don't take that play seriously, just as the (very funny) comedy it is intended to be. And those people are ignoring the fact that Shakespeare wrote many plays with strong, capable women at the heart of the drama. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I should have added to my previous post that in the last few years I was aware of a couple of productions of TMoV after what seemed to be many years of it not being performed. As Lindsay says, I suspect that this has happened because theatre companies have found ways of rebalancing the character of Shylock, in line with the script, to make him less of a stereotype - and this is a good thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 "Authorial" (I suppose, in this case choreographical) intent is not an immutable thing though Fonty. Every directors/stager/performer offers us their interpretation of a work. That is why art is exciting and why we go to live theatre! Otherwise we could just have one film of every ballet ever made and watch it over and over again (I exaggerate to make the point but hopefully you will get what I mean). A work of art is a living thing and the best lend themselves to interesting new insights from every director/performer who tackles them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanartus Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I liked Raven Girl. Shock! I liked Two Pigeons. Horror! ...but how the Ashton can go from whimsy to mimsy through patches of beauty. Someone earlier on mentioned "camp" - in Ashton's case the Mont Blanc of highness. That sort of gets me through the gypsies. Anyway, according to the Kavanagh biography the piece is part allegory based on Ashton's tolerance of his then boyfriend's exploits on Fire Island. So there's another thought to have when watching... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 SMBallet, PC is shorthand for 'politically correct' and is generally a slightly negative term in the sense of things being changed, not said etc in case people who are easily offended take offence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Exactly Aileen. Productions reflect not only the original text but the *zeitgeist* (to put it crudely) of the era of performance. In the 80s I saw TMOV set in a modern dress "yuppy" office environment, clearly emphasising the theme of "greed", free markets and getting rich quick which might have been thought of as the prevailing sentiment at the time. More recent productions have focussed on Shylock as the "other" or outsider, more in keeping with the political and social concerns at the forefront of our current news agenda. Shakespeare is so strong and his plays so rich that they can be "mined" for interesting insights again and again. I would say the same for the best Romantic ballets, Swan Lake for example, with its dualism of good and evil (everything from Freudianism to gender issues can be supported by that). But I'm afraid I'm not sure the story of the Two Pigeons, which felt very slight to me, is sufficiently robust or memorable to have stood the test of time. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Thanks Vanartus - that is interesting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl H Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I love the 'saccharine, infantile, cutesey steps' for the Young Girl....those steps are incredibly hard to dance if doing them correctly, and making them look 'cutesey' for me indicates success. And the world being what it is at the moment, I would rather have something sweet and escapist on the stage than misery or sadness. We get enough of that on the news, unfortunately. Yes, thank goodness we're starting a season of Nutcracker's, Pigeons and Corsaire's! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) Once more back to Two Pigeons I thought this was interesting, and adds to what I thought in my previous post on the topic (somewhere above in a mass of PC comments....! ) "Seymour, fresh from playing the rape victim in MacMillan's The Invitation, worried that her role might be too sugary, and asked MacMillan to advise; she went on the emphasise the role's mischief and sexuality." I got this from the Ballet Lover's Companion by Zoe Anderson, as I was searching for original casts for the different ballets. Interesting that she went to MacMillan for advice, and also that it specifically mentions the word sexuality. When I was watching Cuthbertson last night, the adjective that came into my head was "ethereal." Maybe this was why the attic scenes didn't feel quite right to me. Edited November 25, 2015 by Fonty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Back to last night, I completely agree with Fonty about the dancing in the 'green' Monotones. It was tentative and there were too many wobbles by the smaller woman. It looked ravishing though with the bare stage (what a relief!), the effective lighting and the simple, sparkling costumes. It is a cruelly exposing piece. There is nothing to look at except the dancing. I wondered whether the non-partner work was actually more difficult than that in the 'white' Monotones. I felt that Nunez looked a little ill at ease during the partner work at times and that Hristov did occasionally stick out. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I meant to ask what the first pigeon usually does whilst it is waiting for its mate on the back of the chair. Last night, it was grooming itself pretty vigorously. It's amazing that it doesn't fly off when the dancers dance so close by and particularly when The Young Girl is 'posted' throw the hole in the chair back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
capybara Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I meant to ask what the first pigeon usually does whilst it is waiting for its mate on the back of the chair. Last night, it was grooming itself pretty vigorously. It's amazing that it doesn't fly off when the dancers dance so close by and particularly when The Young Girl is 'posted' throw the hole in the chair back. I think that the grooming the first pigeon does is because he/she has been handled and preening feathers is a natural bird reaction to that. Loved the way that pigeon reached out last night to nibble Vadim's fingers just before the final pose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 One person's "PC rubbish" might be another person's "respect" Mab. Whether it is fashionable or unfashionable to perpetuate offensive stereotypes about particular racial groups, I simply don't want to watch it. Respect seems to me to be invariably used out of context these days, it is for example a popular mantra of the gangs that infest my area. In my book respect must be earned. As I said in an earlier post, if you can't accept something, avoid it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Wow. That escalated fast. It is a very long time since I have been compared to a gangmember - I am now feeling positively youthful and am going out to buy myself a ridiculously small bike on which to practice wheelies outside the spar shop. Thanks MAB! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAB Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Wow. That escalated fast. It is a very long time since I have been compared to a gangmember - I am now feeling positively youthful and am going out to buy myself a ridiculously small bike on which to practice wheelies outside the spar shop. Thanks MAB! I absolutely did not compare you to a gang member, you are twisting my words in order to sound clever. Clearly you live in one of those salubrious areas where you haven't experienced gang culture close up, believe me it has nothing to small bikes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) With respect MAB (sorry - can't help myself using the word) you have no idea where I live and I don't think it's particularly edifying for us to be playing oneupmanship in terms of the number of stabbings in our postcode. I was not trying to be clever but was in fact trying to introduce some levity into a discussion where you were clearly not going to see any merit in any point of view but your own. I had been trying to keep the discussion as reasonable and measured as possible but clearly you are going to take offence whatever I say. You may be totally happy watching racial stereotypes portrayed on stage. It makes me uncomfortable and I suspect (in fact I know) that I am not alone in that. I am not taking this position purely to annoy you. I genuinely feel that it is important to be respectful. If your only answer to that is to tell me to go away and not watch ballet then there is really no point prolonging the discussion. Edited (before you come back and tell me I am twisting your words) I cannot see how else should I interpret "if you can't accept something, avoid it" other than being told to go away Edited November 25, 2015 by Lindsay 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nina G. Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Back to last night, I completely agree with Fonty about the dancing in the 'green' Monotones. It was tentative and there were too many wobbles by the smaller woman. It looked ravishing though with the bare stage (what a relief!), the effective lighting and the simple, sparkling costumes. It is a cruelly exposing piece. There is nothing to look at except the dancing. I wondered whether the non-partner work was actually more difficult than that in the 'white' Monotones. I felt that Nunez looked a little ill at ease during the partner work at times and that Hristov did occasionally stick out. I agree, last night's 2nd cast "Monotones I" is certainly not on a par with the 1st cast. I enjoyed Two Pigeons more this time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Mallinson Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 This thread has degenerated. We don't want to have to close down yet another topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
munchkin16 Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I saw this last night. Monotones 1 had too many wobbles. I feel sorry for the dancer as everyone has bad days but the piece doesn't have that much of a climax in terms of choreography so those arabaseques need to be solid for the piece to be impressive. Monotones 2 was pretty. Nunez looked more solid and comfortable. It didn't stand out to me particuarly though. The Two Pigeons was delightful. Lauren Cuthbertson was beautiful and funny and I love Vadim so the two of them together made my evening. The pas de deux was lovely. I wasn't so sure about all the gypsy dancing just because it went on a bit in the same sort of format. However Laura Moera was fabulous. The men's gypsy costumes however looked awkward, almost like they were too tight. The pigeons were well behaved and for pigeons, very cute! Overall I'm glad they revived it, it was really nice to see something different and I did enjoy the evening. I never knew Ashton was so hard to dance it was a wonderful piece. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 On a slightly different tack, the theatre seemed full to me last night, although I couldn't see the entire place from my seat perched up in the rafters. But I couldn't help noticing that the average age of the audience seemed significantly higher than normal. There was quite a delay at the end when we started to file out, as people took time to get up the stairs, and there appeared to be a blackage caused by a tangle of walking sticks in the aisles. Was there a special offer for people over a certain age? Or was this a sign that this was the audience that this particular bill was likely to appeal to? And if so, how sad that younger people didn't find it tempting. Has Ashton really lost that much popularity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lindsay Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I too noticed that fonty and wondered whether it was the revival of a particular piece that had not been seen for a long time drawing in people who had seen it the last time around. I hope that it is not Ashton since the audiences for Fille back in the spring did not seem particularly elderly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fonty Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 (edited) That is possible, Lindsay. Although it has been on in London relatively recently, maybe these people do not go to Sadlers Wells? Even so, I would hope that younger audiences would have heard of these ballets, even if they haven't seen them. I am not talking about people in their teens here, but those in their forties who are regular ballet goers. I am not sure how the last bill with Raven Girl sold, was that full? Are teenagers and twenty somethings flocking see McGregor, but not Ashton? I find that quite a shocking thought, personally. Would the ROH be struggling to sell tickets if it had been a rarely seen production of a couple of Balanchine ballets? I must apologise for my typo in my last post, by the way. That should have read "blockage", not "blackage". Goodness knows what a blackage is, I hate to think. In my defence, could I just say that I am struggling with a keyboard where most of the letters have worn away, and I don't always hit the right letter! Edited November 25, 2015 by Fonty 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jane S Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 I enjoyed Lauren Cuthbertson's interpretation last night - she reminded me often of a gamine from the 1950s or 60s, and sometimes specifically of Audrey Hepburn - I liked her slightly sharp approach much better than the over-sweetness we sometimes see. But even as a long-time Ashton admirer I do find the first act a bit trying. Also very happy to see Monotones again, with two exceptions: 1. the music for the white trio is surely too slow? 2. I don't care if I'm the only person in the world who thinks this, but I really really wish the green trio could get their rightful hats back. Reasons, in ascending order of importance are - I like them - replacing them with ordinary caps reduces the singularity of the piece and also loses some of the contrast with the white trio - they are what Ashton wanted. (Who thought they knew better?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aileen Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 The more contemporary mixed bills are very keenly priced to draw people in. I think that there were offers for the Raven Girl / Connectome bill as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanartus Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 To all: I am happy when the theatre is full. Whether it's Raven or 2 Pigs - whether it's Swan or a Wheeldon triple - whatever - I want it to be full. End of. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
loveclassics Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 On a slightly different tack, the theatre seemed full to me last night, although I couldn't see the entire place from my seat perched up in the rafters. But I couldn't help noticing that the average age of the audience seemed significantly higher than normal. There was quite a delay at the end when we started to file out, as people took time to get up the stairs, and there appeared to be a blackage caused by a tangle of walking sticks in the aisles. Was there a special offer for people over a certain age? Or was this a sign that this was the audience that this particular bill was likely to appeal to? And if so, how sad that younger people didn't find it tempting. Has Ashton really lost that much popularity? Now I really feel my 60+ years! Yes, Dame Dame Beryl Grey was there but so were plenty of younger folks. I wasn't aware of any special offer - certainly not when I booked but I chose this date for the cast of 2 Pigeons and I wasn't disappointed. I too noticed the poor dancer having a bad night in Monotones I and it emphasised more than ever that Ashton's choreography is far, far harder than it appears. By contrast I loved Monotones II and it ended far too soon for me even though I find the music less engrossing than the Gnossiennes of the first one. Nunez and Watson were quite extraordinary together. Isn't it nice to see Watson NOT in apparent agony? I'm glad I saw 2 Pigeons, having only seen the final PDD before but I'm not sure I would go to any lengths to see it again. The gypsies make me feel a little uneasy too, but more because their costumes and place in the story are stereotyped. Even the music with its cod mazurka (?) sounded a bit tired but luckily we had the amazing Morera and terrific Hirano to liven it up. Hard for the two 'leads' to match but Muntagirov is wonder: fabulous leaps, gorgeous line and none of the flashy 'look at me' tactics so many male dancers are prone too (and no, I'm going to name anyone!). And from where I was sitting I thought his acting was pitch-perfect - natural, involving, nothing over-done. Sometimes I think the RB tends to forget that Ashton requires a very different, more restrained style than that of Macmillan's works. I thought Lauren was lovely in the last act but overdid the spoilt immature girl in the first - almost channelling Alice. But maybe that is partly Ashton's fault - a little of that bird wing-flapping step goes a long way. She is never less than delightfully watchable though and she seems to find it all totally effortless. I hope that the young soloists and artists in the first Monotones will eventually find a way to make their steps appear equally easy. All in all though a thoroughly magical evening and I left feeling happier & more optimistic than I have done for a long time after an evening at the ROH. Linda 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betterankles Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Well - I for one am very happy that many older people are going to the ballet. The younger people will come more often when they have time - when they too are older. Another PC thing 'getting the young people into the ballet'. To generalise - and there are always exceptions - It has always been that children are taken to the ballet, teenagers are busy with study and their social lives, young people have jobs, maybe children to look after and very little extra time on their hands. But after retirement is perfect to have time to more regularly go to the ballet. Of course this is more likely if they love it through having seen good performances as children, and or taken ballet classes as many children do..... Regarding all the PC stuff - I don't understand anything about it. Should films plays and ballets not show murderers and suicides - should they not show war situations, sexual harrassment etce etc etc. Surely these are much more uncomfortable making, then seeing 'gypsies' or even blacked up people dancing? When actors or dancers wear character make up - eg to depict someone old, or a Kostchei (spelling) with a big nose, or wear a wig - eg try to look like a different person then they are in life to create a character on stage, why does that not fall into the same category as blacking up to portray Othello or the blackamoor in Petrushka...? Difference between putting on a false nose/chin and wrinkles, and blacking up anybody? We are all different, why not show this on stage in all its forms - surely this is one of the most important roles of the arts... 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jillykins Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 Loved last night. Was at dress rehearsal but nearer front of amphi last night. Made a difference could appreciate detail more. My husband, not a regular follower of ballet in past but now having to help me move about sees the programmes with fresh eyes. Now making comments on performance. He commented sadly that he thought the girls in M 1 were rather wobbly and it distracted him. He loved Two Pigeons and enjoyed the swirl of colour and pattern in the gypsy dances. We both just enjoyed what was meant to be an entertainment. Having seen Salenko at the dress rehearsal I enjoyed Lauren's girl , two slightly different but equally enjoyable performances.Laura was magnificent, dusky beauty, fleet of foot. No wonder the talented young man wanted to paint her! Sometimes in this ballet simple steps are used to great effect, there was a delightful moment of a sequence of sissones side by side. Thank you all the people who have written such interesting entries, I love being reminded of so much I have forgotten. This rather naive entry really just wants to say ballet is wonderful entertainment , it is good to analyse but sometimes good to just sit back and enjoy. I thank my old man for reminding me of this. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balletfanp Posted November 25, 2015 Share Posted November 25, 2015 If portraying gypsies makes people uncomfortable, where do we stand with Le Corsaire?? Possibly the most un-PC ballet imaginable with slave girls, harems, abduction etc. But it's great entertainment and should be seen as just that. Ballet is not real life 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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