ENB's black dancers.

[RMM1]

 

I couldn't find the up to date figures for Scotland, no idea why, but I don't suppose it will make a huge difference to the percentages.  

 

Scotland & Northern Ireland had their own separate agencies for the 2011 Census. Not sure about N.I. but there is a website for the Scottish data but being separate they don't necessarily display data in the same format as England & Wales.

[Jam Dancer]

What a depressing thread to read.

 

 

 

I really find this idea of 'well done'. Black dancers..how refreshing!? Distasteful.

 

I think that the 'well done' should be attributed to a dance teacher, parents, maybe some government financial aid and potentially Carlos Acosta for inspiring and supporting 'non-traditional' or 'black' dancers that have the skill and talent to now be on the stage at ENB. I think it is great that all children and adults regardless of colour and also from the 'non traditional' areas of ballet dancers are supported. Whether it be regarding socio-economic class or race. Accordingly the 'thanks' should be given to people way before they are appearing on stage at ENB to whomever is supporting these children to have a fair chance to be able to be selected to dance for ENB or any other ballet company.

 

I think all observers of ballet culture have some idea of the difficulties of any child becoming successful in ballet and 'to make it' and even financial and family support does not in any way guarantee success or a career in dancing. Therefore as long as the most talented dancers with the most potential are being chosen and still supported by audiences that are watching them dancing then its a really great story. 

 

I think that comments such as those already made in this thread distasteful  ' I do feel bit sorry for her though, as you know that in a line of white swans, many eyes will be watching the black one, but fortunately she has no worries on that score. Long, elegant limbs.'    I applaud that in the dancer in question showing her talents and going through all of the terrible comments she must have heard. (like the comment above) and is enjoying her career on stage. I hope that audience of the ENB (or on this thread) can catch up to the rest of the world where really, none sees how colour impacts the dancing, and would praise here long elegant limbs and many eyes are watching her for her lines' As I believe it is in most ballet companies in the world.

This brings me to the 2 things that upset me in the ballet world...

 

Misty Copeland constantly mentioning her race, (interestingly not her social-economic barriers) to becoming a dancer at ABT. Where she takes the limelight IMO unfairly in the press due to her !paid promotors! working for her to increase her profile, and where the other more talented dancers take a back seat and let their talent rather than race do the talking. And, 

 

Ballet Black, what is the use of prescribing that ONLY ethnic minorities can dance? I can understand representing local communities that are black in the majority, I can understand financially supporting the under represented black dancers in ballet schools over the world, but I cannot understand positive racism to the end that race first, then talent, is the factor for choosing dancers...as this is what the world is campaigning against, in the rest of the world.

 

I am sorry but I disagree wholeheartedly with this... Whilst I don't think Precious Adams needs anyone sympathies, I understand the intention of the original post. It might not be to your liking to but it is a sentiment that many people express. What your post and many other posts like yours do ( and then deny that it was the intent) is to say that there is no such thing as racism and discrimination in ballet. What you domes to negate the experiences of so many dancers of colour who have experienced his first hand and you effectively say that I don't see your race and you shouldn't either. That is hurtful and you can't understand it perhaps because you've never talked to a dancer or anyone who has experienced it firsthand?

 

Yes there are not as many blacks taking ballet as there are other races but that should not mean that there can't be exceptional dancers in the few that do! The same can be said about Tennis and Formula 1 but there are blacks at the top there. There aren't oodles there but there are some. The same hasn't been true for ballet.... Can you name the top black ballet dancers (female) across the world in the last 30 years? Did you have to resort to Google? All of this cannot be down to the scarcity of blacks taking ballet - yes it's a difficult profession and many who aspire never achieve - the same with top ranked tennis players, golfe s. Formula 1 drivers, Olympic gymnasts, medal winning figure skaters and even CEOs. It's not a valid excuse and the people who say whip out this argument at will have really looked at the history of blacks in ballet nor read the housings of first hand experiences that are out there.., I can tell you what I've seen and heard firsthand....

 

Why do you think Arthur Mitchell, he who had work created for him by Balanchine no less, felt the need to create Dance Theatre of Harlem? When that company of dancers was distanced due to the company folding, not one of the female dancers found work in a major American dance company at any level. Is that because these dancers were dancing on a lower level than the 'mainstream' companies ? Anyone who says this probably has never seen Tai Jimenez dance... She later found work with the Boston Ballet as a principal and that was because of the Director!!!! Her level of dancing didn't improve suddenly and as a result she was hired... The Diector said he took a chance with her as he wanted the younger dancers to see and learn from someone with a great work ethic.

 

A lot of it is down to the directors - yes there might not be a lot of dancers of colour but there are very talented black dancers who don't reach the top echelon of dance for a myriad of reasons and one of this reasons is racism and historical prejudice. The reasons from the shape of the bodies, to the shape of the feet and yes darkness of the skin have been used.

 

I might not agree with the way Misty Copeland chose to be nagged a publicist but I our never be so presumptuous as to question her judgement in talking about her race and the struggles she encountered. She lived those experiences and they are not just figments of her imagination or of her being super sensitive. Others have mad the same comments - are we supposed to believe that these people colluded in recounting their stories or are blacks just prone to complaining if not promoted? There have been less talented dancers than Misty promoted so that's why she felt she needed to say something.

 

You might not like it but racism exists in all walks of life and it exists in ballet - very much so. Someone needs to talk about somewhere so why not I ballet. I see people's race when I see ballet dancers but it doesn't bother me... To say you don't see race is disingenuous.... Precious Adams is dark compared to the likes of Celetste and Francesca..., you can't not notice and there's nothing wrong with noticing ... What is wrong is thinking that she could never b Odette/Odile or Juliet based solely on her race.... There will be lots of people who would find this strange.,.

 

I am not one for concentrating on race but I am not one for denying people 's experiences as I've heard them firsthand and I've seen it.

[Lindsay]

Thanks Jamdancer - for saying exactly what I think and putting it so very well

[Jam Dancer]

And if I could just fix the typos and autocorrection errors.....:>

[alison]

Only within 30 minutes of posting, I'm afraid, Jamdancer.  That's why we always advise reading the post back after you've hit "Post" (although I'm not sure you can from a phone, can you?)

[John Mallinson]

Only within 30 minutes of posting, I'm afraid, Jamdancer.  That's why we always advise reading the post back after you've hit "Post" (although I'm not sure you can from a phone, can you?)

 

I think if you are using the mobile version you can't edit so you have to switch to the full version - there's a link at the bottom of the screen.

[Jam Dancer]

Thank you both! I did read the post immediately after and noticed a few things - housings should be postings, Celeste should be Celine, etc but we're travelling at the moment and I was being rushed out to go to dinner and thought I'd fix it later...

 

Apologies... I would normally make sure I tidy up such a lengthy comment...

[Jam Dancer]

While that is to be applauded, I find it slightly sad that people would only be persuaded to go and watch something because someone of their own racial background has enjoyed success in that particular field.

 

I've heard the same arguments about classical music, Shakespearian drama, tennis...the list goes on and on. Is skin colour the only thing that will attract certain people to one of those events?

.

 

I am not sure that's how it works... I think people can be inspired by success of someone from their own racial background because more than anything it gives them confidence that they too can achieve something similar ... I think the thought perhaps does not occur to most people because most of the people who are successful look just like they do - it isn't something that most people in the UK face on a daily basis.... I don't think anyone goes into any profession solely because of anything related to race ... but people do take notice if they don't see anyone who looks like they do and wonder if they would be accepted or even if they really do have the talent to pursue something... Sometimes the inspiration comes from someone with a similar backstory but it doesn't have to be and often times it doesn't but what skin colour does provide for most is validation that that they too can dream the dream whatever it may be.

 

There are always some exceptional people who are pioneers/trailblazers and go for it no matter what but I think in certain professions it helps most people to have that encouragement. Again this isn't something that most people ever have to think about because they have lots of examples....

Edited October 22, 2015 by Jamdancer

[Fonty]

Jamdancer, I wasn't thinking about future dancers being inspired by seeing someone of their own race, I was thinking more of an ordinary audience member.  While I can understand that perhaps a huge amount of publicity surrounding, say, the pairing of Celine Gittens and Tyrone Singleton as "the first black couple to dance Swan Lake" might entice people of the same ethnicity who would not normally go to the ballet, I would hope that having enjoyed the experience, they would be persuaded to go and see other performances by dancers of all ethnic origins. 

 

It is great to think that a black female lead would introduce a new audience to a wonderful art form.  However, I would be very sad to think that people of any ethnic group would choose to see further performances on that basis alone.

 

 

I see people's race when I see ballet dancers but it doesn't bother me... To say you don't see race is disingenuous.... Precious Adams is dark compared to the likes of Celetste and Francesca..., you can't not notice and there's nothing wrong with noticing ... What is wrong is thinking that she could never b Odette/Odile or Juliet based solely on her race.... There will be lots of people who would find this strange.,.
 

 

I am not sure if this remark was aimed at anyone specifically, or was a general one, but when I said I didn't notice the race of the dancers I mentioned, I meant precisely that. From my position in the amphitheatre, I did not notice. There was absolutely nothing disingenuous about it at all. 

 

And yes, there may very well be people who could not possibly tolerate a black Juliet, but are they the sort of people who regularly attend the ballet?  I have no knowledge of America, I've never been there, so I can only speak for my own home, which is London, but in a city which teems with people of different races, I don't think the audiences would  have any problems with it at all.  Of course, I could be completely wrong, but I would be shocked if this turned out to be true. 

Edited October 22, 2015 by Fonty

[Jam Dancer]

Fonty,

 

My remark about people saying they don't see race was general and not aimed at you at all. It's just that the statement is often trotted out when discussions like this happen and I don't think there is anything wrong with seeing race.

 

I've spent many years in America but I am English and I live in the UK now and whilst I generally hold a more positive view on people in the UK being more open minded, I've overheard a few sniffy comments at ROH. I hope you're right that it would be a non-issue and that we would all just look at what new things the person would bring to the role.

 

I do agree with you that it would be sad for audience members only to attend ballet performances based on the ethnicity / race of the performer(s). I find that odd. They would be missing plenty... Let's hope that people get hooked on the art form itself regardless of from where the inspiration, encouragement and enlightenment might come.

[taxi4ballet]

I do agree with you that it would be sad for audience members only to attend ballet performances based on the ethnicity / race of the performer(s). I find that odd. They would be missing plenty... Let's hope that people get hooked on the art form itself regardless of from where the inspiration, encouragement and enlightenment might come.

Why are there so few black people in the audiences? Race/ethnicity ought to be entirely irrelevant for all parties. There is absolutely nothing to prevent anyone in the UK from attending or participating in any cultural event or activity other than their own perceptions of whether they 'fit in' or not. One can't have it both ways.

[MAB]

Back in the 70's, in the midst of the ballet boom, I have fond memories of a black balletomane called Marjorie who always sat in the stalls circle where she was pretty much a permanent feature.  She was a retired midwife from Guildford and a really lovely lady, does anyone else remember her?  Among the then vast contingent of travelling American ballet fans, I can remember a black lady called Carmen too, though I didn't know her that well.

 

I think the lack of enthusiasm for ballet by black members of the public is shared by the public in general and there is a thread about that elsewhere.

[Jam Dancer]

Why are there so few black people in the audiences? Race/ethnicity ought to be entirely irrelevant for all parties. There is absolutely nothing to prevent anyone in the UK from attending or participating in any cultural event or activity other than their own perceptions of whether they 'fit in' or not. One can't have it both ways.

I am not sure why this is but I think MAB made a valid point about the lack of enthusiasm for ballet by the general public. Ballet is still seen as elitist (unfortunately) and that keeps all types of people away. Some of the black people I know are interested in ballet but they ( like many of my other friends) don't feel they know enough about it and somehow feel it's something for which you need to get all dressed up. This kind of reasoning makes for occasional attendance on special outings and doesn't lead to regular attendance at performances I'm afraid.

[neil]

I am not sure why this is but I think MAB made a valid point about the lack of enthusiasm for ballet by the general public. Ballet is still seen as elitist (unfortunately) and that keeps all types of people away. Some of the black people I know are interested in ballet but they ( like many of my other friends) don't feel they know enough about it and somehow feel it's something for which you need to get all dressed up. This kind of reasoning makes for occasional attendance on special outings and doesn't lead to regular attendance at performances I'm afraid.

 

My brother and I went to a football match recently and then a couple of weeks later we went to R&J at the ROH. I'd gone to the football straight from work and was therefore wearing a suit, but the ballet was on the weekend and I had been in London all day, so was in jeans and a t-shirt. I thought at the time I'd got this the wrong way around...

 

Mind you, given the relative costs of the tickets, maybe not.

Edited October 23, 2015 by neil

[bangorballetboy]

I am not sure why this is but I think MAB made a valid point about the lack of enthusiasm for ballet by the general public. Ballet is still seen as elitist (unfortunately) and that keeps all types of people away. Some of the black people I know are interested in ballet but they ( like many of my other friends) don't feel they know enough about it and somehow feel it's something for which you need to get all dressed up. This kind of reasoning makes for occasional attendance on special outings and doesn't lead to regular attendance at performances I'm afraid.

 

This is reminding me of something that happened in the ROH at a ballet matinée two weeks ago.  I was wearing a green polo shirt with the Irish rugby emblem on it - something to do with a world cup that's going on.  Walking past the (sizable) queue for the ladies' room, a woman said to me "Oh you like rugby; you're in the wrong place."  To say my flabber was gasted would be an understatement.

[taxi4ballet]

This is reminding me of something that happened in the ROH at a ballet matinée two weeks ago.  I was wearing a green polo shirt with the Irish rugby emblem on it - something to do with a world cup that's going on.  Walking past the (sizable) queue for the ladies' room, a woman said to me "Oh you like rugby; you're in the wrong place."  To say my flabber was gasted would be an understatement.

I was in a dancewear shop a while ago (in a town with a large successful rugby club) and some parents were there with their young child buying her first ballet uniform. The little girl mentioned that boys don't do ballet and her dad said 'I do ballet as part of our training- it's made me the rugby player I am today!'

[Fonty]

Did anybody see Newsnight last night?  There was an interview with Carlos Acosta.

 

Unfortunately, I turned it on when it was nearly over, but it is worth watching because some of his remarks relate specifically to the this thread.

[aileen]

I did and I was going to mention it as it pertains to this thread.

[capybara]

I did and I was going to mention it as it pertains to this thread.

 

But what was said, Aileen?

[aileen]

I hope that I am accurately reporting what he said. He was asked specifically about Ballet Black and said that he did not think that the company was a good idea as black dancers should be in the companies along with everyone else. He wasn't sure why there were so few black ballerinas but mentioned access to training.

[Sim]

I am posting below the text of an interview I did with the amazing Cassa Pancho four years ago.  I am unable to access the final version on ballet.co because its archive is closed for now, and it seems impossible to copy and paste a Word or PDF document onto this site, so I am just putting the text of the final version below.  Cassa addresses many of the points in this thread in the interview.

 

 

INTERVIEW WITH CASSA PANCHO, JUNE 2011

Eleven years ago, the half Trinidadian, half British 21 year-old Cassa Pancho was wondering why there were almost no ethnic minorities in classical dance companies.  She was studying for a degree at the Royal Academy of Dance (RAD), and to try to find an answer, she made it the subject of her final year dissertation.  As a result, she formed Ballet Black in 1991.  She has often been called ‘ambitious’ or ‘driven’, but she really dislikes those descriptions as she says that is not how she is at all;  it is simply a matter of once you’ve decided you are going to do something, you do it.  From very humble beginnings,  the company has gone on to win the Critics’ Circle Award for Outstanding Company in 2009. Cassa invited me to watch the company rehearse a new piece being made for them in one of the ROH studios, and their joy of dancing was infectious, even through a glass wall.  Cassa, however,  discovered that dancing was not the path she would follow….

 

You trained as a dancer;  why did you not pursue dance as a career?
I started at the age of 2 ½.  I eventually got to the RAD but in my first year had terrible pain in my back.  It was found to be a stress fracture on my spine, so I had to take a year off to recover.  During that time, I dreaded the thought of dancing again, so it obviously wasn’t for me.  But I wanted to get my degree, so when I went back I learned all about how things work backstage, and discovered that I really liked choreography, which I’d never been much good at.  I spent my third year at the RAD creating dance pieces and researching and writing my dissertation on why there is such a lack of black women in classical ballet companies.

 

So is that how you started germinating the seeds of Ballet Black?

Yes.  It sounds crazy now,  but while doing the research and doing my choreography, it seemed natural to put the two together.  I started thinking “what if I could form a company that would give black women a chance to dance in a classical company, and dance my choreography?”, which I was sure no-one else would want to dance.  By the end of my third year I was very serious about doing it, but everyone thought I was insane and that it was totally unrealistic. 

 

How did you take it from idea to reality?

Well, I thought that if I wanted to do this, I’d better put some money into it myself, as there was no money to be had.  So I became a ballet teacher in the evenings, and worked as a receptionist during the day.  Doing two jobs, I was able to save a bit of money.   The RAD gave me free studio space on a Sunday (as the ROH is doing now), so myself and Denzil Bailey (who was the first black dancer in ENB) started holding auditions for the new company.  We had all kinds turn up, many who weren’t even ballet dancers but just wanted to see what it was all about!  But about 6-8 months later, we put on our first show;  we had 6 dancers, plus myself and Denzil.  I can’t believe how bold we were:  that first show was a fundraiser in the Genee studio at the RAD;  we charged £100 per head to come, and we sold all the tickets!  So that was a very encouraging start.

 

Did you come to any conclusions as to why there are so few black women classical dancers?

I think the thing that struck me most when I was doing my research was that there are so very few black classical dance teachers.   Why should a black parent take their child to a dance class where they are the only black face in the room?  And even if the child was ok and got through there and into a vocational school, there probably wouldn’t be any black dancers in the higher grades, and beyond that, none dancing in the classical companies.  I mean, whether you are doing sport or singing or dancing, young people need role models, and little black girls doing classical dance don’t have many, certainly not in the UK.  So that’s why BB is black and Asian; it is a concentrated dose of role models.  Below that, in the school, it is all mixed, but I want the children to see that it is possible to perform if they are black or Asian. 

 

Do you ever get accused of reverse racism?

Yes, I do.  People say ‘imagine if it were the other way round and a company barred ethnic minorities from joining.  That wouldn’t be allowed.’  The thing is, it is not about barring white dancers, it is simply about concentrating on somebody else.  I and three of the dancers are mixed race so we have white parents who are fine with the company’s ethos. 

 

In addition to BB, you have started a ballet school for young children.  Are the students there mostly black?

Yes, but not exclusively.  We have black kids who come from all over London, and from outside.  One even comes from Birmingham for the Associate classes.   The thing is, it is a constant circle….if black girls don’t have a ballet school where they can go and be comfortable, they won’t get very far, they won’t be able to audition for Monica Mason or Wayne Eagling so they will never be seen, so they disappear, and the circle starts again.  I want to break that circle by giving young black kids the chance to have good training in a comfortable environment, then be able to go on and join mainstream companies.

 

We sometimes hear that the reason for the lack of black female classical dancers in particular is a cultural thing, that ballet is not part of black culture.  Do you agree with that?

No.  When I ask parents why they come from so far away to bring their children to our school in Shepherd’s Bush, that surely there are schools closer to them, they always say “yes, there are, but we don’t want our daughter to be the only black face in the class”.  There are many little black girls who would like to learn ballet, but they don’t because they think they wouldn’t fit in.  If you want to leave your precious 3 year-old somewhere, you want be sure they are ok.  They are taught by me and by Cira Robinson, a black dancer, so they see from a young age that things are possible.  They come to see the company perform and are amazed and inspired, and want to try out things they’ve seen onstage in class.  They see that they could actually go onstage and perform when they are older.

 

Can you foresee a time in, say, the next decade when there will be more black women in the mainstream classical companies?

Yes, definitely.  It is already opening up more now.  There are quite a few black students at the Central School, for example.  But the ADs of the large companies don’t get the chance to see many black students, so that is one of things we are trying to address with the school.  Because black people are a minority group there will never be 50-50 in a company, but I do foresee they will be represented a bit more.  Of course, they still have to do the hard work that everyone else does to be accepted into a large company!

 

You have a school and a company to run.  How are you funded?

At the start, I was putting in everything I had, and then my grandmother gave me £2,000 which was a really big help.  The money from that fundraiser kept us going for about six months.  At that time the dancers only worked on the weekends, so they were each given lunch and £40.  Anything extra that we ever made I used to divvy up between everyone.    We’ve had some contributions from the Sainsbury Family Trust, and small private donations.  Really things didn’t turn around until I met Deborah Bull, who runs the ROH2 programme here at the Opera House.   I was put in touch with her by Bonnie Greer, who gave a talk on the lack of black women ballet dancers.  Afterwards, I told her what I was doing and she said that I should try to do something here at the Linbury or Clore, and Deborah was the one to talk to.  So I emailed her and to my amazement she replied;  I’d grown up thinking she was a guru, and here she was replying to me.  I went to meet her and she was incredibly supportive.  She offered us the use of the studios here at the Opera House on Sundays, free of charge, and I just couldn’t BELIEVE the size of them!  So this made a MASSIVE difference;  people started coming to take class with us and that is when the Associate programme was born.   The ROH also gave us a commissioning grant, which allows us to put on shows here, and pay the dancers a much more reasonable wage. 

 

How about funding today?  You were just refused an Arts Council grant…

We had a one-off grant once from them for a tour, but that didn’t include the five nights we did at the Linbury.   We had high hopes this time that we might get a grant, but we didn’t, so we have to just move on.  There is no point sitting around griping about it;  I made a decision to form this company, so I have to get on with it.  Of course, we could have done with £100k or whatever it might have been!  I’m also worried about the message it may send out to private sponsors…’you haven’t had any AC money in 10 years;  what’s wrong with you?’   My main priority is to be able to pay the dancers, because without them we are nothing.   That is where most of my pressure comes from.

 

It must be such a worry, wondering where the money will come from.  Do you have any corporate sponsorship?

Well, until last year, we weren’t nearly big enough for any corporate sponsors to be interested in us.  We weren’t touring much, and sponsors want their logos all over the country.  And ballet is still quite a niche market for them, especially black ballet….so it has been difficult.  Of course five nights at the Linbury is quite impressive, but it’s not enough.  So at the moment, the majority of our income comes from our Chairman and his family, and some from our Board of Trustees.   The Chairman is American so the Board is run in quite an American way, with them doing fund raising.  We also have a lot of ‘in kind’ help:  the landlord at our home in Marylebone has done us a great deal, MAC gives us makeup, etc.  Luckily, our Linbury show sells out so the profit from that keeps us going for another month.  When we do somewhere like Cambridge, that doesn’t even give us enough to pay the dancers for a week, but we do it to build an audience.  We started performing in Cambridge four years ago to almost no-one, but now we do two nights there, so it’s making financial sense.

 

So five nights’  sell-out profit only keeps you going for a month?  And that is your biggest performance each year….how much does it cost to run the company?

Yes, just a month.   It’s hard to put an exact amount because it depends on what we are doing, but on average it is about £20,000 per month….which is very hard to find!

 

Could you tell me a bit about your dancers? 

We started with an American dancer who joined us for a while, but he went back to the States.  We were desperate for a British male dancer but just couldn’t find anyone of the right standard.  We didn’t want to put someone under par onstage because it would fuel the myth of black people not being good at ballet.  So I turned to this American and he sent over a friend, Damien Johnson, who we took without audition and crossed our fingers.  Luckily he was just what we were looking for and is now the backbone of the company.  We had no money so he lived with me and my parents.  Actually, a lot of dancers have lived with me and my parents!  When we became full-time three years ago we started holding auditions here, and no black people turned up.  None.  We had loads of Spanish and Italians, but not even one black person, so were forced to look abroad, and America was the logical place.  You hold an audition there and 50 black people turn up, and all of a high standard.  So that’s how we got Jazmon Voss and Cira.  A bit later we were lucky enough to find some excellent British dancers, including Sarah Kundi who came to us from Northern Ballet Theatre, so now the company is about 50% British and 50% American, and it all fits. 

 

And having good dancers means you are now attracting good choreographers, such as Alston, Oguike, Scarlett, Hampson, Tuckett….quite an impressive list!

Yes, we’ve been so lucky to have those amazing people create works on us.  And I’m sure they’re doing it for a lot less pay than usual!  Will Tuckett made our first narrative piece (Orpheus) this year for our 10th anniversary, and the dancers really love working with him because he manages to bring out so much from them, things they perhaps didn’t know they had.  I also encourage our dancers to choreograph, and recently we had ‘An Afternoon with Ballet Black’ here at the Clore, in which we had students from the school and the company onstage, and it was very successful.  They created some great pieces, absorbing influences from the many different types of choreographers we’ve used (20 in the past 10 years!).   I also give them the chance to teach at the school;  I want them to be part of the whole, and not just ‘you are a performer and that’s it’. 

 

How do you see the future of Ballet Black?  Do you envisage it becoming like Dance Theatre of Harlem or Alvin Ailey?

I can’t see myself running a company of 30 dancers, it’s hard enough with 8!  Although I would like to have 10, it would make a massive difference to us.  16 would be even better;  it would give choreographers much bigger scope and they could have two casts in case of injury or illness.  We need so much;  a rehearsal director, an administrator, a nice big building with performance space….   Happily what is happening now is that the critics are coming to see us for our new choreography, and not as a ‘black’ company, and we don’t hear audience members saying ‘well, they were good for black dancers’.  What I am working towards is that in the future BB won’t even need to exist;  that there will be enough black dancers and role models integrated into the mainstream companies that there wouldn’t be a need for us anymore.

 

And what would you do if that were the case?

I am not sure…but I’d love to work with animals in my next career! 

 

Copyright  Simonetta Dixon, June 2011.  No part of this interview may be used without prior agreement of the author.

[capybara]

Wow, Sim. Thank you so much for this transcript  .

[Nina G.]

It's pretty obvious that ballet companies are all very keen to demonstrate they have black dancers. Whenever I read a press article on for example Ms Hayward the press always mentions that she was born in Nairobi and that her mother is African. Why does this need to be mentioned all the time?

 

What has struck me during the current run of R&J is that Ms. Hayward's debut announcement got numerous press articles whilst Ms. Naghdi's debut (she was not born in Nairobi but in London) got none. I read a full review on Hayward's debut in The Telegraph but I have seen none in the press on Naghdi's debut (besides a brief one "squeezed" in The Sunday Times, alongside a review of Raven Girl).

 

What does that say?...  

[alison]

I'm not sure.  Obviously Hayward is higher up the rankings and has done more and bigger roles than Naghdi, so is more "visible".  I'm trying to remember what it was like when Jerry Douglas joined the company, back in 1997, I think it was.  I remember the fact that he was black (and I think was actually the first black member of the company? in which case he must have preceded Carlos Acosta) was mentioned in a couple of press articles, but my impression was that the company was trying not to make too much of it.  OTOH, things have changed since then, social media has flared up, and of course we have the "Misty Copeland" effect.  *And* Hayward is female.  Couple this with the articles recently promoting Eric Underwood, several of which, I seem to remember, mentioned that he was black, and various mentions about the ethnicity of several of BRB's leads in Swan Lake, and I tend to extrapolate that either questions have been asked about why British companies "don't have" black dancers like ABT does, or that the companies feel the necessity to emphasise the fact that they *do*.

[cavycapers]

I think my original intention in starting this thread was in thinking about the "white" ballets, where you have a line up of 24 swans, wilis, shades, etc, and though it may have happened before, it was the first time I had seen it, and I was so pleased to see that Tamara Rojo had had the guts to put a black ballerina into a line up of corps where you are aiming for them all to look exactly the same. It doesn't matter so much for the male corps members. I think it is a bit disingenuous to say that one doesn't notice, one just thinks what wonderful dancers they are. The point is that you do notice, but that it is great, and with any luck, this will happen more and more in the future so that it will become the norm, not the exception.

 

Interestingly, I looked at Misty Copeland's autobiography again, and her experience of being in the corps, and where she complains at being fed up of having to apply ivory foundation to whiten her skin, she never says whether she chose to do this, or it was a requirement of the management!

Edited October 26, 2015 by cavycapers

[Jam Dancer]

It's pretty obvious that ballet companies are all very keen to demonstrate they have black dancers. Whenever I read a press article on for example Ms Hayward the press always mentions that she was born in Nairobi and that her mother is African. Why does this need to be mentioned all the time?

 

What has struck me during the current run of R&J is that Ms. Hayward's debut announcement got numerous press articles whilst Ms. Naghdi's debut (she was not born in Nairobi but in London) got none. I read a full review on Hayward's debut in The Telegraph but I have seen none in the press on Naghdi's debut (besides a brief one "squeezed" in The Sunday Times, alongside a review of Raven Girl).

 

What does that say?...

 

I don't think it says anything at all and I am not sure I agree that it's obvious that all ballet companies are keen to demonstrate they have black dancers. I think companies are keen to demonstrate they have talented dancers (who happen to be black) as that is what keeps audiences attending and helps to build a good reputation amongst other things.

 

I think to attempt to suggest that Francesca's recent attention has anything to do with more than her talent is to do a disservice to all the hardwork she puts in and the great performances she has managed to put together recently.

 

Francesca can't control what the press mentions and obviously some part of our society is still concerned with this type of information ( her mother is African and she was born in Nairobi) so this gets mentioned. Or can it be as simple as the articles use a lot of 'stock text' from the previous articles and are a bit repetitive (my thoughts whenI read them). Why does the fact that this is mention seem to bother you? I skim the articles looking for new information and I don't even notice that stuff anymore. I found the mention that she is estranged from her mother more interesting...

 

There are many cases (in fact most) where there are talented dancers of the same race and one gets more press than the other. Why is a case not made then? Do we need to make a case for every instance like this occurs especially since the particular incident in the case you cite has occurred once.

 

Why isn't it simply that since the article on Francesca being "the next great British dancer" which appeared late last year and well received debut performances in Rhapsody and Manon, Francesca has a bit more name recognition (at this time)? There was also the emerging talent award at the National Dance Awards which Francesca 'won'. I think the first thing that is mentioned about Francesca is the quality of her dancing and her performances.

 

Yasmine had a wonderful debut (I attended) and I'm not sure why there weren't as many articles as you feel there should have been. The press writing about a particular dancer can't help to make the dancer talented if she or he isn't or help the audiences to enjoy the dancer's performances.

 

Also not sure why you note Yasmine was born in London and not Nairobi... Aren't both dancers British or is there some implication that one is more British than the other because of her birthplace? Is Judi Dench more British than Helen Mirren ?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Jamdancer

[Fonty]

Interestingly, I looked at Misty Copeland's autobiography again, and her experience of being in the corps, and where she complains at being fed up of having to apply ivory foundation to whiten her skin, she never says whether she chose to do this, or it was a requirement of the management!

 

Don't all dancers have to apply the ivory foundation, irrespective of their natural colouring? 

 

I am sure I remember reading a dancer's biography years ago, saying that they were not supposed to do too much sunbathing when they went on holiday, because the company would complain about the amount of whitener they had to use to cover their tans afterwards. 

[Sim]

That is true, Fonty....a friend of mine who was in the RB in the 80s and early 90s told me that she was never allowed to get a suntan whilst on holiday.

[Jan McNulty]

And I believe they all have to use the skin makeup for the likes of Swan Lake and Giselle.

[Sim]

Yes they do. In Giselle, Osipova really slathers hers on her body and her face in Act 2 to give her a truly spectral appearance.

[alison]

I think my original intention in starting this thread was in thinking about the "white" ballets, where you have a line up of 24 swans, wilis, shades, etc, and though it may have happened before, it was the first time I had seen it, and I was so pleased to see that Tamara Rojo had had the guts to put a black ballerina into a line up of corps where you are aiming for them all to look exactly the same. It doesn't matter so much for the male corps members.

[...]

Interestingly, I looked at Misty Copeland's autobiography again, and her experience of being in the corps, and where she complains at being fed up of having to apply ivory foundation to whiten her skin, she never says whether she chose to do this, or it was a requirement of the management!

 

Ah, I see.  In that case, we have definitely gone a bit off-course - not that that's anything unusual, of course

 

I thought your above-referenced post certainly implied that it was by order of the management, and that everyone did it, not just her.

 

I think to attempt to suggest that Francesca's recent attention has anything to do with more than her talent is to do a disservice to all the hardwork she puts in and the great performances she has managed to put together recently.

 

I'm not sure anyone was implying that, in any shape or form.  It would indeed be doing her a disservice.

 

I am sure I remember reading a dancer's biography years ago, saying that they were not supposed to do too much sunbathing when they went on holiday, because the company would complain about the amount of whitener they had to use to cover their tans afterwards. 

 

I seem to remember ENB, back in Derek Deane's day, I think it was, unless it was Wayne Eagling's, specifically asking the women not to get too tanned/burnt on holiday.  I think it's not only difficult to mask, but I got the feeling that sunburn showed up very oddly through the white foundation.

 

Incidentally, I did remember noticing recently that one company didn't appear to be using the white foundation at all for its swans.  Certainly Matthew Bourne's Swan Lake doesn't appear to have done so for a while now, although that may well be for reasons of practicality as much as anything else.

[Fonty]

It was a long time ago when I read the book, and I couldn't remember whether it was a request or an order not to get a tan.

 

For some people that must be quite difficult.  I have several friends with the sort of mediterranean colouring that seems to go brown in about 10 minutes of weak UK sunlight. 

[Pas de Quatre]

I had friends in the Ballet at Nice, and was visiting one August when they were performing Swan Lake.  They all applied white body makeup as they spent as much time as possible sunbathing!