ENB's black dancers.

[billboyd]

A lot of the Carbon Life audience came for the musicians.

[Tony Newcombe]

Boy George for a Fiver!!!

[toursenlair]

I have attended Misty Copeland performances (Coppelia) at the Met in NY and I can tell you it is overwhelmingly obvious that she is attracting African-American audiences to ballet.

[Fonty]

While that is to be applauded, I find it slightly sad that people would only be persuaded to go and watch something because someone of their own racial background has enjoyed success in that particular field.

 

I've heard the same arguments about classical music, Shakespearian drama, tennis...the list goes on and on.  Is skin colour the only thing that will attract certain people to one of those events? 

. 

Edited October 17, 2015 by Fonty

[Guest Autumn days]

While that is to be applauded, I find it slightly sad that people would only be persuaded to go and watch something because someone of their own racial background has enjoyed success in that particular field.

 

I've heard the same arguments about classical music, Shakespearian drama, tennis...the list goes on and on. Is skin colour the only thing that will attract certain people to one of those events?

.

 

How many (English) people, I wonder, are less eager to follow the rugby now that England are no longer involved? You could argue tha surely they should still want to watch but, many were following simply because of a national pride, the need to feel involved etc etc. Is there anything wrong with that? We cannot all be the same or like the same thng for the same reasons and surely everyone should be allowed to get on with what they want without feeling the need to comply with statistics or be politically correct. And anyway, the very vast majority of while british people dont go to the ballet, either. Edited October 17, 2015 by mum in a spin

[Nina G.]

 and surely everyone should be allowed to get on with what they want without feeling the need to comply with statistics or be politically correct. And anyway, the very vast majority of while british people dont go to the ballet, either.

 

That's very true, only a minority of white people attend the ballet in the UK, and the majority is 40-plus.

 

If we must all be allowed to get on with what we want to see and do, as you say (and I agree), why is there such a fuss in the press about the lack of black people attending ballet? Maybe they simply don't want to? what about complaints about directors not taking on enough black dancers - when there really aren't all that many? to get more black youngsters into dancing ballet?... 

Aren't they too allowed the freedom to choose what they want to see, and do. Why are we/are we "forcing" them to like ballet? 

[alison]

While that is to be applauded, I find it slightly sad that people would only be persuaded to go and watch something because someone of their own racial background has enjoyed success in that particular field.

 

I've heard the same arguments about classical music, Shakespearian drama, tennis...the list goes on and on.  Is skin colour the only thing that will attract certain people to one of those events? 

 

I remember when Alvin Ailey appeared at the Coliseum back in 1992, I think it was, that I was surprised at the sudden and very noticeable increase in the proportion of black people in the audience (well, in the balcony, at least), compared with the usual audience for dance there.  Now, obviously they weren't a ballet company as such, but were these people there because of the race/background aspect, or had someone done a lot of promotion targeted at members with an Afro-Caribbean background?  I don't know what it was, but it worked.

[toursenlair]

While that is to be applauded, I find it slightly sad that people would only be persuaded to go and watch something because someone of their own racial background has enjoyed success in that particular field.

. 

 

What's sad is that for years people of non-white racial background felt that they were not welcome at the ballet because they never saw anyone who looked like them performing ballet.

[Sim]

Well I go and see all kinds of ethnic performance here in London...Japanese drummers, South African ttribal dancers and singers, Cloud Dance Theatre of Taiwan, Chinese acrobats. No-one on any of those stages looks like white me, but that doesn't stop me from going along and enjoying it. I actually love seeing people who don't look like me in performance because it is something very different from my daily life. My view is, vive la difference!

[Fonty]

What's sad is that for years people of non-white racial background felt that they were not welcome at the ballet because they never saw anyone who looked like them performing ballet.

 

 

I don't see anyone who looks like me performing ballet either!  Ballet dancers resemble aliens from another planet as far as I am concerned, with their extreme slenderness and extraordinary flexibility.  I am always amazed that the body can do the things they manage to do, and do it with a smile as well.  They don't look human at all. 

 

Edited to add that I went to see a play at the Young Vic some years ago, which was based around a particular part of Africa and its religion.  It was very funny, and sold out months in advance.  I can't remember the name off hand.  However, I did notice that at the Saturday matinee my friend and I were the only white people in the audience.  Although I didn't understand some of the in jokes that were clearly relevant to those from that particular background, I didn't feel "unwelcome.".

Edited October 17, 2015 by Fonty

[Lindsay]

Cavy capers, you are absolutely not alone in noticing the whiteness of ballet audiences. I think the fact that in threads like these (and on other ballet forums) half the posters seem to get their world view from the Daily Mail (the 1930s Daily Mail in some cases) may be a clue to the phenomenon. A less welcoming crowd to anyone who is not "people like us" can hardly be imagined (cf the tedious and massive "audience behaviour" thread for further evidence of intolerance).

 

I find it astonishing that anyone living in a modern British city cannot see how offensive much of this discussion has been

[cavycapers]

"Dear CC, I did not mean to insult you, and I certainly didn't think that your intention was to be distasteful, but as many matters as sensitive as race, religion, sex etc., one must tread carefully when raising an issue. In a forum it is easier for me to write and say how I feel directly to you, but in a social gathering such as the ROH bar, if you mentioned it, I would hold my tongue and then probably be a bit like Gordon Brown and say something in the car afterwards hoping the microphone was switched off."

 

Dear Swissballetfan, please do not tell me that you didn't intend to insult me and then link me to Gordon Brown's "bigoted woman" opponent. If that's the best apology you can come up with, don't bother. And maybe you could take yourself and my well intentioned thread a little more lightly!

Edited October 17, 2015 by cavycapers

[SwissBalletFan]

"Dear CC, I did not mean to insult you, and I certainly didn't think that your intention was to be distasteful, but as many matters as sensitive as race, religion, sex etc., one must tread carefully when raising an issue. In a forum it is easier for me to write and say how I feel directly to you, but in a social gathering such as the ROH bar, if you mentioned it, I would hold my tongue and then probably be a bit like Gordon Brown and say something in the car afterwards hoping the microphone was switched off."

 

Dear Swissballetfan, please do not tell me that you didn't intend to insult me and then link me to Gordon Brown's "bigoted woman" opponent. If that's the best apology you can come up with, don't bother. And maybe you could take yourself and my well intentioned thread a little more lightly!

 

That was me trying to take the situation lightly, as far as I remember the woman never really said anything that was very controversial, and it was Gordon Brown who was bashed for being the bad guy. But its actually ironic that the whole news became about the to and fro of their discussions rather than the important issues at hand, to avoid that happening, I'll not bother.

[MAB]

Interesting that the conversation concentrates on ballet whereas in the world of modern dance there are a good number of black dancers, and contemporary in general pulls in a far younger audience than classical ballet and a far more racially diverse audience too.

 

The first all black modern dance company in the UK was The Maas Movers formed in 1977 and several others followed, most notably, Phoenix Dance.  I myself worked with dancer/choreographer William Louther (a former pupil of Antony Tudor) when he was running an experimental group called The Dance and Theatre Corporation and although the personnel varied in numbers and race, frequently all the performers were black, including the remarkable James Lammy a one time director of Maas Movers who apart from modern dance was very fine classicist.  Of course back then there was no opportunity for a black dancer to join the lower ranks of a ballet company though a few appeared with companies here after establishing careers elsewhere, Kevin Pugh and Paul Russell spring to mind. 

 

Back in the 1980's I attended a talk given by one of the RB's ballet masters and I raised the question of black dancers,  He was clearly flustered and gave some kind of inadequate reply.  I thought I may have caused embarrassment all round, but no, the very middle class, conservative people around me were all saying things like 'hear, hear' and 'quite right' and I realized that if there was prejudice somewhere at play it wasn't with the dance audience for whom talent matters more than colour of skin.

 

I'm delighted by the current acceptance of dancers of all races, some of whom I've liked and some not - just like white dancers.  I don't believe in tokenism as it invariably backfires, but I'm happy in the knowledge that when a dancer from a racial minority shows promise, that promise will be nurtured and can come to fruition.

[Jan McNulty]

I went to Atlanta in 2000 to see Michael Pink's Dracula. Despite the fact that we saw very few white people during our few days wandering round the city, I saw very few black people in the audience. I got talking to the black lady sitting next to me at one performance and she expressed surprise too, but she was from California!

[tabitha]

Cavy capers just wondering why your focus is on numbers of black dancers? What about other minority ethnic groups e.g those whose heritage is from the Indian sub-continent, who also make up a large proportion of our diverse communities?

 

What are your proposals for increasing numbers of black and minority ethnic dancers and audiences?

 

Edited for clarity

Edited October 18, 2015 by tabitha

[Anna C]

Cavy capers, you are absolutely not alone in noticing the whiteness of ballet audiences. I think the fact that in threads like these (and on other ballet forums) half the posters seem to get their world view from the Daily Mail (the 1930s Daily Mail in some cases) may be a clue to the phenomenon. A less welcoming crowd to anyone who is not "people like us" can hardly be imagined (cf the tedious and massive "audience behaviour" thread for further evidence of intolerance).

I find it astonishing that anyone living in a modern British city cannot see how offensive much of this discussion has been

I find your view of "half the posters" here offensive, Lindsay.

[Guest Autumn days]

That's very true, only a minority of white people attend the ballet in the UK, and the majority is 40-plus.

 

If we must all be allowed to get on with what we want to see and do, as you say (and I agree), why is there such a fuss in the press about the lack of black people attending ballet? Maybe they simply don't want to? what about complaints about directors not taking on enough black dancers - when there really aren't all that many? to get more black youngsters into dancing ballet?... 

Aren't they too allowed the freedom to choose what they want to see, and do. Why are we/are we "forcing" them to like ballet?

 

I don't know why ballet has been specifically targeted but generally speaking as a nation we are being encouraged to be more politically correct and perhaps the journalists do not look beyond what they see. As has been said, audience figures are often representative of the general population and people may just not want to go because they are not interested - not because they are black but because they prefer concerts, comedy, football, staying in with a good book or a whole host of other things. Everyone should have the freedom to do what they like and, in my view, it is almost as racist to bring attention to the fact that a certain group of people do not participate in certain activities as it is to discourage them from doing so. Either way, they are being highlighted simply because of their skin colour.

 

I am aware, though, that most people may not look a it like that and am sure that most people who have contributed to this discussion are well meaning!

[Pas de Quatre]

I do wonder if the very diverse ethnic groups who are living here, but not part of the UK's original Celt/Anglo Saxon/Brit population (I may have missed some), don't get a bit fed up with all being lumped together!

 

Many years ago when I was teaching RAD syllabus and they introduced the sheet for ethnic origins, I asked the mums of some of my pupils (who were not White British) which category I should tick.  Several answered that none of the various alternatives given actually covered their children's ethnicity, so from then on I always ticked the "information not asked box".   

[zxDaveM]

Boy George for a Fiver!!!

 

you'd have to give me a lot more than that to take him off your hands!  :-)

 

(for me, the star musician was definitely Alison Mosshart)

[Fonty]

Cavy capers, you are absolutely not alone in noticing the whiteness of ballet audiences. I think the fact that in threads like these (and on other ballet forums) half the posters seem to get their world view from the Daily Mail (the 1930s Daily Mail in some cases) may be a clue to the phenomenon. A less welcoming crowd to anyone who is not "people like us" can hardly be imagined (cf the tedious and massive "audience behaviour" thread for further evidence of intolerance).

 

I find it astonishing that anyone living in a modern British city cannot see how offensive much of this discussion has been

 

I find this comment baffling.

 

Are you saying that a new audience is being put off coming to the ballet because they are not allowed to talk during the performance, text or take flash photos on their mobiles, eat noisily from crackly bags of food, push past others during the performance, bob about, snog their partners and various other types of behaviour that have been complained about on the "tedious and massive" audience behaviour thread?

 

Are you saying that sitting quietly and watching the performance is an example of outdated, middle class, right wing political views?

 

Or are you saying something else and I have totally misunderstood?

Edited October 18, 2015 by Fonty

[Sim]

Furthermore, Lindsay seems to think it is perfectly acceptable to make disparaging, offensive sweeping generalisations about one group of people, but in the same post accuse people of being offensive towards another group. And further to what Fonty says, just because a few people out of 2000 misbehave during a performance, why should it then follow that the whole audience is unwelcoming?

 

Everybody has their prejudices...it would just seem that some targets are more acceptable than others.

[toursenlair]

 

I don't see anyone who looks like me performing ballet either!  Ballet dancers resemble aliens from another planet as far as I am concerned, with their extreme slenderness and extraordinary flexibility.  I am always amazed that the body can do the things they manage to do, and do it with a smile as well.  They don't look human at all. 

 

Edited to add that I went to see a play at the Young Vic some years ago, which was based around a particular part of Africa and its religion.  It was very funny, and sold out months in advance.  I can't remember the name off hand.  However, I did notice that at the Saturday matinee my friend and I were the only white people in the audience.  Although I didn't understand some of the in jokes that were clearly relevant to those from that particular background, I didn't feel "unwelcome.".

 

Fonty, I realize you are trying to inject some humour into this, but I fear it trivializes the point that I (and Misty Copeland) was making. Very few of us look like ballet dancers, but your analogy doesn't fit. Imagine if, in addition to not looking like the ballet dancers you see on stage, you lived in a society where for decades people like you who didn't look like ballet dancers, in addition to not being able to perform with the Royal Ballet, were systematically banned because they didn't look like ballet dancers from certain schools, universities, restaurants, theatres, public transport, not allowed to vote or to marry ballet dancers, were unable to find jobs, etc. , and where your ancestors only five generations ago  were enslaved because they didn't look like ballet dancers. Wouldn't you then think, if you went to the ballet and didn't see a single person dancing who looked like you, that it was just another part of society in which you were not welcome?

[Anna C]

But fortunately, that is not the case in the UK, Toursenlair. I know the thread has changed from the original post to include comments about Misty Copeland, but the original subject was English National Ballet.

 

To be honest I think this thread was always going to be inflammatory but personally I think it is becoming unconstructive now.

[taxi4ballet]

Perhaps some people don't go to the ballet because they don't like it? You wouldn't find me at a heavy metal gig either. I don't like the music.

[Mary]

Toursenlair makes a serious point, very well. It does seem related to the discussion about ENB. True, the UK and the US are different in this and other respects.

 

I, and I think probably everyone on the forum would like to think there is no problem at all with racism here, or in British ballet- maybe that is true- I hope so- but, I can't see that it  is wrong to pause and consider it from time to time.

[Pas de Quatre]

Of course there has been racism here, but there is one major difference between UK and USA.  In USA the majority of black citizens were transported there against their will into slavery.  Here the majority came of their own free will as part of recruitment drives by such as the NHS, London transport and other major employers.

 

My husband and I like blues music and we have seen several documentaries where black american musicians only started to hit the big time when they came to UK. They found it incredible that they were treated the same as the white musicians here who welcomed them, their fame then followed them back across the Atlantic!

[tabitha]

I would be interested to know what effect Ballet Black has had on audiences. Do they attract a significant non-White audience? Have they had an impact on the number of young black girls taking up ballet? I say girls specifically as I see lots of young black boys at vocational schools and really can't see that they will be under-represented as dancers in the next 5-10 years.

[sarahw]

Cavy capers, you are absolutely not alone in noticing the whiteness of ballet audiences. I think the fact that in threads like these (and on other ballet forums) half the posters seem to get their world view from the Daily Mail (the 1930s Daily Mail in some cases) may be a clue to the phenomenon. A less welcoming crowd to anyone who is not "people like us" can hardly be imagined (cf the tedious and massive "audience behaviour" thread for further evidence of intolerance).

 

I find it astonishing that anyone living in a modern British city cannot see how offensive much of this discussion has been

I don't think this discussion has been offensive - of course it raises difficult issues but they should be discussed. Or maybe because I'm a country bumpkin I'm not qualified to comment. ....

 

Despite not reading The Mail I do find most of the audience behaviour thread reasonable - it is relating mostly to a lack of respect in society; which is seen in many other situations also. I want a society of polite considerate people. (Who can go more than 1 hour without eating.)

[Naomi M]

Also nice is that Osiel Guneo and Brooklyn Mack are guesting with this company. Both are absolutely fabulous danseurs, brilliant, almost jaw-dropping technique with also elegance.

 

Their brilliance has nothing to do with their race but I am very happy that those two virtuoso dancers are getting international recognition. 

Edited October 19, 2015 by Naomi M

[trog]

Having taken ballet classes for fun, for over 20 years, I can tell you there have never been many black people in class, one or two at most in a class of 30. The number of black men and women always seems to be equal, while overall the number of women has always far exceeded the number of men. For years, I was the only bloke in a room full of scantily clad attractive women - a tough job but somebody has to do it Now there are more men taking class than ever before. Here in Brum, over the last few years, there have been more Chinese and Japanese people turning up to class. I don't know if this is as a consequence of the Asian dancers in the BRB, but I doubt it. I think it is because there are more Asians at the universities here in Brum and the people who come to class as usually uni students. Also, I have only been taught by one black teacher, the brill Julie Felix. A lot of black people do go to the DanceXchange and they do other types of dance.
 

Despite not reading The Mail I do find most of the audience behaviour thread reasonable - it is relating mostly to a lack of respect in society; which is seen in many other situations also. I want a society of polite considerate people. (Who can go more than 1 hour without eating.)

I'd rather see people who can go for more that 5 mintues without fiddling with their phone.

[taxi4ballet]

Children in the UK are given the opportunity to learn a musical instrument at school, but how many black children choose to take up a classical instrument? Are they encouraged to do so by their families?  It is still extremely unusual to see black musicians in orchestras.

[Fonty]

I have been looking on line for the results from the latest census about the current poulation of Britain by ethnicity. The table I found states that in England and Wales, the percentages of people classed as Black is 2.8%.  (Asian is 5.8%, Mixed race 1.8%)

 

I couldn't find the up to date figures for Scotland, no idea why, but I don't suppose it will make a huge difference to the percentages.  If you narrow that down by sex and age, then that means we are talking about a very small number of individuals. 

 

Incidentally, I hadn't noticed that Francesca Haywood was black until it was mentioned in a review, I just saw a wonderful dancer.