ENB's black dancers.

[cavycapers]

Well done, Tamara Rojo, every time I see the ENB, there are more black dancers. How refreshing. It's particularly lovely to see Precious Adams in the corps. I do feel bit sorry for her though, as you know that in a line of white swans, many eyes will be watching the black one, but fortunately she has no worries on that score. Long, elegant limbs.

 

I hope that by the end of this decade we might see a black ballerina in a major classical role, until then, come on RB show some cojones, like Ms Rojo.

Edited October 15, 2015 by cavycapers

[alison]

Well, in an interview with Eric Underwood in the Evening Standard yesterday, I think it was, I think it said there were ... 5? ... (you can tell I don't classify dancers by race, can't you?) black dancers in the RB.  Not to mention those of other ethnic origins, of course.

[cavycapers]

Yes, that's true. Obviously, we have become very comfortable with black male principals at the RB for some time, with the lovely Carlos Acosta.

 

I think I am commending Tamara Rojo's vision in appointing black ballerinas, and again, I may well be wrong (I often am) but I am struggling to think of a time when I have seen a black female dancer in the RB.

Edited October 16, 2015 by cavycapers

[Anna C]

I don't think you need feel sorry for Precious Adams - when we last saw ENB's Swan Lake, I noted her presence but she didn't stand out, she was just one of many beautiful swans.

 

Personally though I don't tend to notice skin colour as it's the dancing and music I focus on.

[SwissBalletFan]

What a depressing thread to read.

 

Well done, Tamara Rojo, every time I see the ENB, there are more black dancers. How refreshing. It's particularly lovely to see Precious Adams in the corps. I do feel bit sorry for her though, as you know that in a line of white swans, many eyes will be watching the black one, but fortunately she has no worries on that score. Long, elegant limbs.

I hope that by the end of this decade we might see a black ballerina in a major classical role, until then, come on RB show some cojones, like Ms Rojo.

 

I really find this idea of 'well done'. Black dancers..how refreshing!? Distasteful.

 

I think that the 'well done' should be attributed to a dance teacher, parents, maybe some government financial aid and potentially Carlos Acosta for inspiring and supporting 'non-traditional' or 'black' dancers that have the skill and talent to now be on the stage at ENB. I think it is great that all children and adults regardless of colour and also from the 'non traditional' areas of ballet dancers are supported. Whether it be regarding socio-economic class or race. Accordingly the 'thanks' should be given to people way before they are appearing on stage at ENB to whomever is supporting these children to have a fair chance to be able to be selected to dance for ENB or any other ballet company.

 

I think all observers of ballet culture have some idea of the difficulties of any child becoming successful in ballet and 'to make it' and even financial and family support does not in any way guarantee success or a career in dancing. Therefore as long as the most talented dancers with the most potential are being chosen and still supported by audiences that are watching them dancing then its a really great story. 

 

I think that comments such as those already made in this thread distasteful  ' I do feel bit sorry for her though, as you know that in a line of white swans, many eyes will be watching the black one, but fortunately she has no worries on that score. Long, elegant limbs.'    I applaud that in the dancer in question showing her talents and going through all of the terrible comments she must have heard. (like the comment above) and is enjoying her career on stage. I hope that audience of the ENB (or on this thread) can catch up to the rest of the world where really, none sees how colour impacts the dancing, and would praise here long elegant limbs and many eyes are watching her for her lines' As I believe it is in most ballet companies in the world.

This brings me to the 2 things that upset me in the ballet world...

 

Misty Copeland constantly mentioning her race, (interestingly not her social-economic barriers) to becoming a dancer at ABT. Where she takes the limelight IMO unfairly in the press due to her !paid promotors! working for her to increase her profile, and where the other more talented dancers take a back seat and let their talent rather than race do the talking. And, 

 

Ballet Black, what is the use of prescribing that ONLY ethnic minorities can dance? I can understand representing local communities that are black in the majority, I can understand financially supporting the under represented black dancers in ballet schools over the world, but I cannot understand positive racism to the end that race first, then talent, is the factor for choosing dancers...as this is what the world is campaigning against, in the rest of the world.

Edited October 16, 2015 by SwissBalletFan

[Jan McNulty]

I don't think you need feel sorry for Precious Adams - when we last saw ENB's Swan Lake, I noted her presence but she didn't stand out, she was just one of many beautiful swans.

 

Personally though I don't tend to notice skin colour as it's the dancing and music I focus on.

 

 

Well said Anna!

 

Here is the link to the Eric Underwood feature:  http://www.standard.co.uk/es-magazine/royal-opera-house-ballet-star-eric-underwood-i-want-to-be-a-great-dancer-regardless-of-my-colour-a3091036.html

 

 

I would also like to point out that there are companies in this country other than ENB and RB, Cavycapers!

[Guest Autumn days]

I totally agree that race is irrelevant. Dancers should be chosen because of their talent alone and mentioning that they have done well despite their race is more discriminatory than applauding them for their ability. Being selected or offered a company promotion so that that company is seen to be being politically correct would be a hollow victory indeed!

[Nina G.]

My take on this is:

 

I firmly believe that any dancer of exceptional talent, no matter what colour, will nowadays be accepted in any UK and European ballet company (Russia is still an exception). Surely talent must precede race. 

 

The general public and critics who keep pointing at Directors make one mistake: they should start by looking at statistics that the Associate Programmes and Vocational Schools provide in the first instance. I once read that on average 1,000plus  11 year old children audition annually to enter vocational training at The Royal Ballet School, the figure for the BRB school at Elmhurst must be more or less the same I guess.  Out of those 1,000plus children only about 30 are physically suitable to start ballet training (question: out of those 30 how many are black?). The selection of children for vocational ballet training at the age of 11 is based on physical suitability, not on race.  Most, if not all, vocational schools in UK have pre-11 training facilities through their Associates Programme thus enabling many children of different backgrounds AND race to start trying out ballet training. As a (now retired) ballet teacher I have seen many youngsters starting out, including black children, but very few finishing their training.

 

When critics or the public wonder why there is no black Odette/Odile I am asking: out of how many 1000's of white children who start training become a Swan? So, if the proportion of white to black/mixed race children in ballet training diminishes as the demands of the training increases, and only very few make it through the rigorous eight year training programme, the chance of seeing a black Swan is extremely slim and this has nothing to do with Directors not wanting black dancers in their company.

The general public is unaware of the fact that in order for any child, be they black or white, to become an elite ballet dancer a particular physic is needed if not the body will not be able to withstand the rigours of training in the first instance. 

 

The "blame" of a lack of elite black dancers in companies lay not with the directors. It is due to the fact that there is a shortage of black/mixed race children who are physically suited to enter elite vocational training, and who are also prepared to fully commit to a physically demanding and highly disciplined life, to give up on all the pleasures and freedom of childhood/teenage years, and who are ultimately prepared to lead the very hard life of a professional dancer, being paid very little compared to all the efforts they've made as a child in order to become and be a professional dancer.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/stage/2012/sep/07/racist-attitudes-ballet-access

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/11/black-ballet-dancers_n_1873760.html

[Nina G.]

 

 

This brings me to the 2 things that upset me in the ballet world...

 

Misty Copeland constantly mentioning her race, (interestingly not her social-economic barriers) to becoming a dancer at ABT. Where she takes the limelight IMO unfairly in the press due to her !paid promotors! working for her to increase her profile, and where the other more talented dancers take a back seat and let their talent rather than race do the talking. And, 

 

Ballet Black, what is the use of prescribing that ONLY ethnic minorities can dance? I can understand representing local communities that are black in the majority, I can understand financially supporting the under represented black dancers in ballet schools over the world, but I cannot understand positive racism to the end that race first, then talent, is the factor for choosing dancers...as this is what the world is campaigning against, in the rest of the world.

 

Oh how I agree with you on this SwissBalletFan.

 

Many organisations and companies have turned it all into "reversed" racism in order to show "we are not racist", and it is being exploited to the detriment of other talented dancers. The Evening Standard alone published two articles in the space of seven days with such headlines thus further contributing to the whole race issue. If only the press would stop mentioning "mixed race" or "black dancer" less and less people would continue making an issue out of it and readers would gradually get the message that it does NOT matter what race a dancer is. Now all it does is further "feeding" the public's attention and highlighting the race issue when there is not.

 

When it comes to Copeland, her promoters certainly milked the black race issue to the max. She is considered to be a good dancer, and it doesn't matter that she is black, but it unfairly sidelined very talented ABT ballerinas just because they are not black but white. 

[Pas de Quatre]

Yes we do have a black Odette/Odile - fabulous reviews in the papers today for Celine Gittens and Tyrone Singleton who have just opened BRB's London season of Swan Lake.

 

I must admit I get a little uncomfortable with positive discrimination.  When it is a gender issue, I am against positive discrimination to advance women, even though I consider myself a lifelong feminist.  Every candidate for everything should be judged on their merits.  Perhaps unrealistically hopeful, but that is still my take on it.

[Sim]

I interviewed the founder and AD of Ballet Black, Cassa Pancho, a few years ago for ballet.co.uk. Sadly I can't get into the archive so can't reproduce it here, but she had some very interesting things to say on this issue, and ended the interview by saying that she hoped that one day there wouldn't be a need for Ballet Black.

[A frog]

I've only seen Misty Copeland dance Gamzatti, but at no point did I think she was there because of her race. And if anything, if there's an ABT policy that stifles the opportunities for promotion of other dancers, it's their over-reliance on guests, not some "reverse racism".

 

I'm also confused by complaints that she is promoting herself and by extension her company and ballet, I thought anything that would develop potential audiences would be a good thing and all and any efforts should be applauded.

[SwissBalletFan]

I've only seen Misty Copeland dance Gamzatti, but at no point did I think she was there because of her race. And if anything, if there's an ABT policy that stifles the opportunities for promotion of other dancers, it's their over-reliance on guests, not some "reverse racism".

 

I'm also confused by complaints that she is promoting herself and by extension her company and ballet, I thought anything that would develop potential audiences would be a good thing and all and any efforts should be applauded.

 

Misty Copeland is promoting herself first, her race 'issues'  second, her spin-off popularity into other areas of fame and marketing, then ballet needing to promote black people, then ballet ticket sales, and lastly some people might go to ballet to see other people dancing that are not her.

 

The other issue about the fact she is the only dancer I am aware of that PAYS people to promote HER, and in this way a bunch of marketing guys 'blue-skied the ideas' what is Misty Copeland's ISP? Is she one of the best dancers of her generation? Nope. The best dancer at ABT? Nope. Hmm, she is black dancer yes, lets get that out to social media, and push the story as much as we can. Two years later.......She is the first black female principal ballet dancer at ABT. Although there was at least one other 'ethnic minority' promoted to principal at the same time, though you wouldn't know.

 

Also, talking about guests...I don't remember Acosta being in any stories about being a black dancer/choreographer on Royal Ballet's US tour. 

 

In other news Tiger Woods is the one of the best golf players the game as ever seen. (full stop)

Edited October 16, 2015 by SwissBalletFan

[A frog]

Maybe others will confirm, but I believe Darcey Bussell used to have and has private management, at any rate, I don't find it something to be outraged about.

Ballet careers are notoriously short, so what if she's already preparing for the future?

[Nina G.]

In my opinion the two are not to be compared and I hasten to add that great artists do not NEED to promote themselves, their outstanding talent alone will speak volumes, just look at Marianella Nunez and Alina Cojocaru (to name but a few).  

The real great artists are also the most humble and the less talented ones will feel the need to promote and trust themselves in the limelight. REAL stars will be trusted in the limelight by their talent alone and not by appearances in the press or numerous magazines.

[SwissBalletFan]

I'm also confused by complaints that she is promoting herself and by extension her company and ballet, I thought anything that would develop potential audiences would be a good thing and all and any efforts should be applauded.

 

If you are a fan of Ms Copeland and her dancing, that is great. The fact that Ms Copeland promotes herself, using race as a major part of that promotion, is a totally different matter. 

 

Read all of the press about Misty, it is 90%+ about her being black, and about her 'struggle to be recognised as a dancer' Well she soon solved that with the help of a promotion company. Is that the answer for our children? Instead of working hard in a studio and get the just deserts when they come. Get a promotion company and get yourself 'promoted' to a level you shouldn't be.

 

It's actually a great idea! Lets pay other people to shout 'bravo' next time a DD does a solo, and not clap for other dancers so they seem less popular? Because the view of Copeland helping the ballet world is only a populism of her struggle based on a fabricated and out-dated, view of the ballet world. (Elites only)

 

Maybe others will confirm, but I believe Darcey Bussell used to have and has private management, at any rate, I don't find it something to be outraged about.

Ballet careers are notoriously short, so what if she's already preparing for the future?

I have no bones about anyone making the best for themselves if they so wish. But please don't confuse this with anything like helping Ballet as a consequence of this, especially when its only to point out that she is black. Misty Copeland has secured her financial future and 'fame' and that's fine, but let's see it for what it is....she is to ballet, what Kanye West is to music.

[Fonty]

Can I just say that until it was pointed out in an article afterwards, I hadn't even noticed that Celine Gittens was black.  It never registered with me at all.  I simply saw a beautiful swan. 

 

And when Carlos Acosta started dancing with the Royal Ballet, I never thought, "Goodness, a black Principal."  I just thought, "Wow, what an incredible dancer."

[capybara]

Of course, stories about black dancers (and early hardship) seem to be very popular in the world of entertainment. Isn't Michaela de Prince's biography going to be made into film?

[cavycapers]

Do you know what, swissballetfan, I should be insulted that you found the intention of my post to be distasteful, but I can't be bothered. I suspect you would have found some problem with whatever I said. It's one of those subjects that you are damned if you mention it and damned if you don't.

 

So I shall have to continue to wonder on my own why the audience at the ROH is so predominantly white.

[loveclassics]

So I shall have to continue to wonder on my own why the audience at the ROH is so predominantly white.

 

I think you will find that true of audiences at many events in UK - 96% of the population IS white.  Sorry but we are not responsible for our celtic/scandinavian/roman ancestry!

[Tony Newcombe]

I remember a couple of Guardian journalists producing an article on black dancers at the time that it had been announced that Celine Gittens and Tyrone Singleton would be dancing the leads in Lac about three years ago. They thought it was appalling that percentage of Afro-Carribean in this countries leading ballet companies was just under 3%. I decided to look at the figures from the previous national census for England and Wales and found that the percentage of Afro-Carribeans in England and Wales was just over 2% of the total population. Another piece of sloppy journalism. And of course, this time around the Telegraph critic could not resist mentioning the ethnicity of Gittens and Singleton.

 

Edited for a typo error

Edited October 16, 2015 by Tony Newcombe

[cavycapers]

Well, if we are going to be pedantic about this, I was thinking about the whole issue because the last time I visited the ROH, looking at the audience milling about and in the bars, etc, I saw only one black person, and if the audience capacity of the ROH is 2,200+, then technically, as a percentage, this doesn't represent the ethnic make up of the UK.

 

On the other issues in this thread, I think Eric Underwood being interviewed by the Guardian, in 2013, probably expresses better what I was fumbling to say.

 

"Right from the start of my career, I've noticed a lack of ethnic people in ballet. In a corps de ballet, especially for women, the idea is to be identical: you're trying to move the same and not call attention to yourself. For someone who isn't white, that's difficult. You're left with a choice: you have to either become so great a dancer that you're not left in a chorus or a line, or embrace your beauty and hope others do, too – seeing it as beautiful, even if the symmetry is disturbed."

Edited October 16, 2015 by cavycapers

[A frog]

The UK might be predominantly white, but London isn't, or at least not 95%.

Whenever The Guardian has an article about the ethnic make-up of ballet companies, I'm usually in the comments pointing out that the percentage is consistent with the UK population (and that if there is any discrimination, it will anyway happen a long time before any AD sees students so it's a bit too easy to blame the companies), but one can't give the same justification for London audiences.

[toursenlair]

re Misty Copeland and population proportions:

approx 13% of the US population is African-American.

ABT has only one African-american ballerina (Misty).

They also have Calvin Royal and Gabe Sheyer in the corps.

That's 3 black dancers out of 84.

I think Misty may have a point.

[Coated]

London's population is ~60% white according to the 2011 census.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

Edited October 17, 2015 by Coated

[loveclassics]

Yes, but in London, the non-white population tends to be much newer to this country and, in East London at least, largely Muslim.  In their eyes professional dancers & their performances are morally dubious, to put it mildly.  In my borough many immigrant parents will not allow their children to participate in or even attend music classes at school so I doubt if a career in ballet or any form of dance is considered acceptable.  Wasn't there an RB soloist about 10 years ago whose family came from the Middle East and put pressure on him to abandon his career for something more respectable?

 

What worries me more about the future of ballet is the age of the audience - I never see more than a handful of people under 40 in the audience at the ROH or the National Theatre and those I do see are mostly tourists getting a quick blast of culture before getting back to shopping in the rest of their trip.

 

I'm sorry if this is not PC but I don't think we should focus on ethnic minorities on stage and I think laying emphasis on their skin colour and not on their talent and artistry is counter-productive.  It's a hard enough struggle to become a professional without worrying about what is largely a matter of others' perceptions.

 

Linda

 

Edited for punctuation errors.

Edited October 17, 2015 by loveclassics

[cavycapers]

For all the problems I have with Misty Copeland's autobiography, I was still amazed at her reporting that when she did what she calls the "white" ballets, Swan Lake, La Bayadere, and Giselle, etc, whilst all the dancers used white powder to look ethereal, she had to apply an ivory base foundation al over her face and arms to fit in. And that wasn't all that long ago.

[cavycapers]

One does have to wonder why some of the audience are there. There was a lady I sat next to at the ROH, done up to the nines, who kept muttering "get on with it" whilst Romeo and juliet were dying. I think she was keen to get back to the bar. I wouldn't have minded but it was Acosta/Rojo!

[aileen]

I see a lot of people of east Asian origin, many young, at ballet performances in London. I don't know whether they are local or whether they are overseas students or tourists. There is usually a sprinkling of people of south Asian origin at the Coli (certainly for Nutcracker and Swan Lake) and the Wells. There are fewer Black Caribbean or African people in the audiences. I'm surprised that Carlos Acosta hasn't attracted more Black people to ballet but perhaps he just doesn't have the same profile that Nureyev had among the general public. As someone said on another thread, programmes about ballet are not shown very often on the main television channels (they tend to be hidden away on BBC 4 or Sky Arts)  but, even if they were, how many young people would watch them? Young people watch much less television than they used to as they have other forms of screen entertainment.

[SwissBalletFan]

Do you know what, swissballetfan, I should be insulted that you found the intention of my post to be distasteful, but I can't be bothered. I suspect you would have found some problem with whatever I said. It's one of those subjects that you are damned if you mention it and damned if you don't.

 

So I shall have to continue to wonder on my own why the audience at the ROH is so predominantly white.

 Dear CC, I did not mean to insult you, and I certainly didn't think that your intention was to be distasteful, but as many matters as sensitive as race, religion, sex etc., one must tread carefully when raising an issue. In a forum it is easier for me to write and say how I feel directly to you, but in a social gathering such as the ROH bar, if you mentioned it, I would hold my tongue and then probably be a bit like Gordon Brown and say something in the car afterwards hoping the microphone was switched off.

 

Again, I think it is important to raise the point again, that the fact that you are watching these black people on stage is the result of years and years of hard work, family support, cultural bias, and the availability of affordable training in maybe 'traditionally ethnic' areas of London/UK/NYC/beyond.

 

I once visited the Notting Hill carnival, and I didn't do any statistical analysis, but there were very few white people, in the audience, or in the festival. (of course). I also have visited a few rap concerts, and rock concerts. I even once went to a village to watch cricket, and there was some 'merry dancing' or folk dance with bells and sticks, who were all white, watched by all white people, but I didn't feel it was racist.

 

I think that, ballet, like breakdancing, or Bhangra is a cultural and artistic event. I feel often as if their is some perceived 'hierarchy' of culture of which ballet sits atop as the pinnacle of a white upper class set. Which is absolute nonsense, and is only fed by ethnic minorities releasing their stories about 'how tough it was' etc..

 

The journalists should have stories about how tickets start from £2 at ROH, and 40% of the tickets are cheaper than watching a football match,the great majority of the people watching probably earn more than the principals on stage, but that is because the dancers are paid so little, not that the audience is rich. Oh and the audience is white in the majority, yes it is. Most of the people at rap concerts are black (% wise), the artists sing about how rich they are, and the people watching pay a higher price to watch it than it costs to watch ballet. So it isn't a rich elite keeping blacks away. Its a cultural aspect, of schooling, culture, support, and...taste.

 

I read a lot of articles from UK press, and I am always confused about stories of 'why the UK cannot be proud to British, 'cos it is seen as racist'. When the national dish is Chicken Tikka Masala, and there are some great black rappers, notting hill carnival, cricket matches, bhangra, classical music, R&B etc.. I don't see why it isn't embraced, and each to their own. 

 

I have attended many multi-cultural events and a rap concert in New York where I was one of 3 white people in hundreds, I don't think the funny looks I was getting from people was them trying to work out what the % of the population was locally, and whether I was representative. I have also attended an Ed Sheeran concert (a white rapper-ish) and the crowd was about 50-50 and he didn't mention being white funny enough, or that his friends were black, but the audience had a great time, and didn't care.

 

I think voices in ballet from dancers should be about bringing people together and embracing the love and artistry, not releasing divisive books about how difficult it is to be a black person in ballet. Also if you take a look at Eric Underwoods Twitter page, he loves the fact he is a model and one of the last photos is of him with Tommy Hilfiger who famously said that he doesn't want black people to wear his clothes, so I would take some kind of moral high ground with a pinch of salt.

 

'I want to be a great dancer regardless of my colour' is the headline on the front page of his latest article, it could just be 'I want to be a great dancer'. 

 

the subscript could read - just like all the white/latin/asian/russian/gay/straight great dancers you don't read about because it was so easy for them'

 

or 'if i was white and still working my ass off because...NEWSFLASH...ballet is hard for everyone...you would be probably writing about a better dancer, because I am not that good'

Edited October 17, 2015 by SwissBalletFan

[trog]

One does have to wonder why some of the audience are there. There was a lady I sat next to at the ROH, done up to the nines, who kept muttering "get on with it" whilst Romeo and juliet were dying. I think she was keen to get back to the bar. I wouldn't have minded but it was Acosta/Rojo!

 

I often feel exactly the same - in most productions, Romeo and Juliet spend far too long dying. Mercutio is even worse - I regulary think that he should just kark it so the story can move on.

[Nina G.]

I'm surprised that Carlos Acosta hasn't attracted more Black people to ballet but perhaps he just doesn't have the same profile that Nureyev had among the general public. 

 

Now here's a good point. If the internationally known and high profile dancer Carlos Acosta hasn't been able to attract more black people to ballet, if the numerous recent headlines in the UK press about the success of so and so black/mixed race dancer doesn't/hasn't attract(ed) more black children to ballet training (the Misty Copeland case still needs to be proven IF more black people will attend performances at ABT because they now have a black principal) what else can be done? Perhaps this group of our population is simply not interested in this art form?

 

Let's add another angle: 

If I look at traditional African dances it explains to me why black people are more attracted to let's say Street Dance and Hip Hop. Those movements are naturally in their body, these styles appeal to them, and they are very good at it, more so than most white people. The east Asian (for that matter all Asian) dance styles are very different to the African/Carribean dance forms, their music too is very different. This partly explains I think why the east Asian population is likely to be more attracted to seeing and appreciating ballet than the majority of black people, and that's why east Asians are seen to attend ballet performances at the Coli and Sadler's Wells for example.

 

One has to appreciate classical music in order to appreciate ballet. A white/black/mixed race child starting out its ballet training, besides having the right physic and steely determination, also has to have - or needs to be able to develop - a love of classical music.  If classical music (and the aesthetic of classical and contemporary ballet) does not appeal to black people I am asking myself:  "Aren't we trying to "force" them into loving our western dance form?".  If music education is given little or no importance in our schools, if black children are not exposed to, or learn to appreciate, classical music since childhood how will they ever become attracted to seeing a ballet or train to dance classical ballet as a professional? 

 

When I attended Wayne McGregor's "Carbon Life" I was truly pleased to see an audience at ROH that was so diverse. People of all walks of life and colour, tattooed, pink or blue haired, nose rings, name it you got it, were there... but did they ever return to see a McMillan or Ashton ballet? They may just about come into ROH because of McGregor's name but not because of their love of ballet. 

 

Black people may have heard of Carlos Acosta, the "amazing black Cuban dancer who had a deprived childhood and made it against all the odds". They will perhaps attend a ballet to see HIM but not really with the intention to see a ballet as such.

 

If Acosta couldn't get them hooked into watching (more) ballet, who/what will?

[Nina G.]

"Hear,hear!" SwissBalletFan. You summed it all up as far as I am concerned.