BalletBoysDad

I think it’s coming next week, as I queried arrival and departure times as I’ll be travelling by train. 

13 hours ago, gdallas said:

We were at ROH last night 12th April. It was almost completely the same cast as for the Gala opening night but to me it seemed much more enjoyable. Everything was tighter, smoother and the orchestra was wonderful. Perhaps because I was in the stalls this time as opposed to amphitheatre but I think the production has settled down and I felt that MN had really developed the role. Dancing was superb of course! I loved it. I’m going again. One of my best evenings at the ballet. Thank you RB 

I second this too. I’ve been lucky enough to see all 3 performances with Vadim and Marianella. The gala was wonderful, simply for what it was. The second performance, I watched from the slight sides of the balcony, and although I’m a massive fan of the balcony, I felt that some of the subtleties in the choreo became harder to see. I also sensed some nervousness that wasn’t so apparent in the opening night. As it human, I saw some wobbly landings and an unfortunate stumble into the table. It’s also the first time I ever felt myself slightly squinting and missing details (as opposed to, say, Like Water for Chocolate that looked ravishing from any section of the auditorium). I watched again last night from the stalls, and it somehow all fell perfectly into place. All the dancers seemed to have relaxed into their roles and it all felt effortless and seamless. Whatever people think of the stepsisters, I personally think they look totally committed to their roles, never break character and perform it with real conviction. They are delivering exactly what Ashton wanted. The score, like all Prokofiev, gets more lyrical and memorable with every fresh recital. The lyricism is there from the beginning; you just maybe have to open yourself up to discovering it. The grand pas de deux was aching with longing, dare I say a very subtle eroticism. Marianella appeared to be floating on air. Although I agree that there is a feeling that Vadim is underused, it’s wonderful to see a production that really showcases the breadth of female talent. I seem to remember coming away from Mayerling thinking it was a showcase for the male dancers, and I’m glad to see parity for female dancers in Cinderella.  

8 hours ago, gdallas said:

The costumes were mostly beautiful, from where I was sitting in the amphitheatre. The Sisters well hmm. I quite liked the Molly Goddard outfit, but I guess they are supposed to look daft. 
 

I snorted my coffee when you said ‘Molly Goddard’. I thought exactly the same thing, with a brief contemplation of Giambattista Valli. Then fully settled on Molly Goddard 😂 

I was mulling over this morning, slightly in the angle of the Broadway World review, if Marianella’s Cinderella was a touch ‘one note’, or very understated. But I stared to think of the consequences if different emotions were on display. We see and feel her yearn for her mother, and we see and feel her yearn for the memories of her time at the ball, but the rest of the time she appeared in a state of kind content. She seemed bemused by her awful sisters rather than a victim of them. She seemed to have a contentment with her life and circumstances that never invoked self-pity, and it appeared her only disappointment of not going to the ball is that she longed to dance with a real human, regardless of the status of the ball itself. Had she appeared overly sad or distressed with her existence, or overly abused/tormented by her sisters, I imagine it would have steered the narrative to her being ‘saved’ by the prince, which would have probably totally rewritten the personality and character of the Cinderella Ashton had in mind.  Maybe this is why Ashton chose not to have a cruel stepmother? 

I thought it was an absolutely wonderful evening. For me, the orchestra were on excellent form and Prokofiev is very safe in their hands. You could feel the yearning, longing and sense of sadness in the score right from the overture, and it set the perfect tone for the evening. The midnight waltz is thrilling. I personally loved the step sisters. The only ‘niggle’ which I imagine is in the choreography/direction is that sometimes their presence can be overpowering, for example their disappointment at the shoe not fitting detracted from that important moment where Cinderella’s slipper DOES fit. But it’s only testament to their conviction and commitment to the role which shone through.  Whatever modern technology was at play, this production felt positively traditional. I loved the way the house gradually ‘pulls apart’. It felt genuinely exciting and magical. I can’t remember the last time I let out a massive ‘ahhhhhhhh’ at the end. There are ‘wishlist niggles’ where it would have been lovely to see her dress ‘transform’, which was a special moment I seem to remember in the Australian Ballet production. But overall I found it a joyous and captivating production that flashed in the blink of an eye. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend it and am placing bets on this running over Christmas 24/25 

8 minutes ago, oncnp said:

Cinderella-27.03.23-v5.pdf (roh.org.uk) and upthread. You can also get it from the drop down box under "Tickets and Events" on the website. 

 

Ah wonderful, thank you! 🙏🏻 

Does anyone have a link to (or image of) the cast list for tonight’s opening?

10 minutes ago, JNC said:

I agree with this - overall the proportional of seats sold is probably not terrible at this stage given first night reviews may play into things and I do expect that will pick things up.
 

True. It also felt similar during the early sales stages of ‘Like Water for Chocolate’. Unless you were familiar with the novel, the trailer and marketing gave very little away. Though mid-run, and after mostly favourable reviews it became ever more difficult to get a ticket.  

1 hour ago, capybara said:

 

I think it was. Certainly, there was no ticket sales crisis such as we are seeing now with Cinderella.

I’m not seasoned enough to make any comparisons, but would it be fair to say that Cinderella ticket sales look worrying at this stage? 

1 hour ago, Bluebird said:

 

You're not wrong.  Here's the Coppélia thread from that season:

 

Ah, thanks for that. That was the first time I had ever watched Coppelia and I thought it was extremely charming. 
 

My prediction is that they will have another Nutcracker this Christmas (23/24 season) , and depending on the success of this Cinderella, possibly look to run it over Christmas 24/25 season and give Nutcracker a rest.

1 hour ago, capybara said:

A ‘log-jam’ arising from the pandemic?

Productions for which high prices could be charged?

Classical dancing opportunities for a Company with talent in depth?

Contractual arrangements to be fulfilled?

Pre-pandemic, I have in the back of my mind that I heard whispers that a new Cinderella was being planned for a Christmas run. Then it probably went into a period of covid-induced hibernation. Post-pandemic, maybe swapping a revenue-assured 34/36 performances Nutcracker run at Christmas for Cinderella wasn’t something they felt comfortable with. If indeed, it was originally planned for Christmas. I’m sure I watched Coppelia in 2019, when there wasn’t a Nutcracker that Christmas. (I am probably wrong) 

It wouldn’t have bothered me for an opera. Sight lines of legs and feet are maybe less important there. 😂 But I’ve had some quite misfortune experiences with sightlines for ballet in the stalls, more so from the sides.  That’s why I was surprised they were all a flat price for the performance-only gala stalls seats, when clearly some are much better than others. 

25 minutes ago, JNC said:

I know this relies on you having the cash flow to wait to cash in the gift voucher for a future purchase but you could have perhaps bought these better tickets to return yours (for credit minus £4). 
 

do roh allow exchanges anyway, I’m sure they would charge £4 for that too? I guess the advantage is you don’t have additional money going out now. 

It all got happily sorted out in the end. Two (not that great side stalls) tickets were £550. I could have bought the ‘better 2’ new tickets like you say and have asked to convert the previous 2 to credit. But with moving house etc I rather keep the money. During Nutcracker, I had some side balcony seats and on 2 occasions, at a later date I saw some centre front row balcony seats become available. I can’t remember the exact amount I paid, but it was the relatively small cash difference in ticket price and maybe a £4 or £6 rebooking fee. I can’t quite remember, but it was definitely worth paying it for changing to much better seats without a huge price difference.
 

That’s what I planned to do for Monday, but the issue was really the effort it took to get through to the box office. I’ve always found the box office to be fair and reasonable. It’s just on this occasion it was very hard work. 

1 hour ago, PeterS said:

they have always been priced at £275

Thank you, was just curious to know how the pricing structure worked, as I’m not a ‘friend’ and never saw what was available from the original releases.
 

It’s been a frustrating week as I bought my tickets very late. It was the ‘best of a bad bunch’ that was available in the stalls at the time, but I was looking forwards to it. As each day went by, I saw really good stalls seats come available again, several at a time. On Tuesday, almost an entire central row became free. Numerous attempts to pay the booking fee and swap for a better seat failed due to phone calls going unanswered for ages, the ‘press 1 and we will call you back’ not working, emails being unanswered. Some very good seats were available for 4 hours and I had no success getting through in that time frame. 

On 18/11/2022 at 23:26, oncnp said:

 

Mine just came in the post today and for the best Grand Tier boxes (4 tickets) the seats were £2K + suggested donation of £4K 

 

The "cheapest" are the performance-only stalls (£170 + £105)

Sorry, I haven’t read through the whole thread yet. I bough gala tickets very late. Still, ‘performance only stalls’ were £275. I wonder if they sold fewer of the ‘super premium’ tickets, and later raised the prices when it opened to general booking? All orchestra stalls, performance only, have been showing £275.

Sorry, I rarely comment these days. But I always felt that my DS’s training belonged to him and me, not a specific school or teacher. I trusted my own intuition and my sons enthusiasm to try other things.  Therefore, I never sought the permission of another teacher or school. However, out of respect, I always told them my/our plans, and would have listened if they expressed valid opinion. Deeply subjective and personal (and clearly open to disagreement), it feels like an employer saying you can’t seek or apply for other jobs. We are all masters of our own destiny, and if we feel it’s in our children’s interest to have new or alternative experiences, I believe we should follow that instinct. 

34 minutes ago, balletmom8 said:

Dropping off DD at WL today at 3 for week 1! We are planning to take the tube to Richmond and then Uber or taxi to WL  (does anyone know if Ubers can enter the park? I have the park pass they sent.) They said registration can take up to 30 min. Will I be able to get another Uber (or Bolt etc.) to pick me up at WL? Thanks! 

We’ve taken Ubers and Addison Lee cars into the park. I just gave them a printed copy of the parks pass as some of the cyclists can be quite confrontational to vehicles entering the park. Not sure however about being able to book a car pick up from white lodge itself. I’ve always walked to Sheen Gate and ordered a car from there, though clearly it’s going to be absolutely baking today.

6 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

The Russian schools do amazingly well, I can immediately think of two, one in London and one in the southwest, whose students do extremely well not just here but in Europe. Their timetables are brilliant, students can basically train up to 6 days a week without having to leave home at an early age. They also seem to have more performance opportunities. The downside obviously is that you have to live relatively nearby to make full use of such hours. Otherwise I can imagine it is easier for these parents to turn down full time offers to let their children train in these schools and then they can still stay at home with them especially when they’re so young. The list of schools these graduates go on to is very impressive - top schools in Germany, Switzerland, Norway…and regular offers from WL for their younger students. My DC isn’t a student of either of these schools btw so this is not an advert.

I did genuinely consider this route. I was extremely impressed with YDA, which although ‘vocational’ doesn’t have boarding, so meant my DS could stay at home. However he really wanted to go to WL. I was also really impressed with the Russian school I assume you’re referring to in West London. My DS did their Easter course and not only really enjoyed it, he found the content enjoyably challenging. This could have been a perfect option for blending ongoing, challenging and purposeful training that keeps you ‘well in the game’ for others pursuing all sorts of routes. But having only recently moved back to London, our ‘regular school choice’ isn’t a choice at all. It would be a dreadful high school where (without a crystal ball) I’d be extremely worried my DS would be miserable. But I do think that, if you’re London based and are confident with your regular school choice, those non-vocational options are absolutely viable. I’ve also seen a number of their boys go to Vaganova. 

4 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Hi @BalletBoysDadplease don’t feel like we are having a go at you, it’s clear that you are giving your son the very best you can and that is wonderful. The young boys in international ballet competitions can be pretty intimidating with their fantastic skills! It’s hard for even a vocational school to replicate that level of tricks when they are trying to do things safely so there will always be a bit of a mismatch. Does he have male teachers that inspire and challenge him? It’s important that he gets that sort of input as he gets older so that he can really use his developing physique to its maximum. My daughter was at a regular RAD school then switched to Russian a year ago. There are several boys there who can partner her very effectively and also are amazing soloist dancers, thanks to the teachers, (one of them is male). You might consider the hours that they do as fairly intense as it’s daily plus at weekends. They perform full professional repertoire. So it’s possible even outside WL etc to get that sort of training if you’re lucky enough to live near it! My DD does SA too. They are all older than your son - about to start their upper school training. Best of luck to your DS! 

I don’t take any offence at all. I find the discussion extremely interesting. Not necessarily concerning the opinions of  anyone here, I often find conversations concerning age, hothousing, vocational or non-vocational routes very black and white, without all the ‘shades of grey’ and that maybe make decisions and routes more personal from student to student. If people take time to better understand what people mean, rather than taking immediate offence, it removes the ‘heat’ and makes the discussion more balanced and interesting. 

13 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

Well I’m no expert for a start having never had a DC auditioning for WL at year 6! There have been multiple discussions about this topic on this forum -“is it still about potential” being one of them.  In my well loved book I had as a child “Life at the Royal Ballet School” written in the 80s it mentioned that a child could get into WL if even never having had a ballet lesson in their life! I guess that in theory it should be possible to get into vocational school doing your regular classes/associates at such a young age. Hothousing has to be a sudden increase in hours spent doing ballet, loads of private lessons in order to influence the outcome of the audition.  It’s about keeping it all in perspective and in proportion to the child’s age. By 16 there will naturally be a huge difference between a pre-pro dancer and a recreational one but what I wonder is how much there should be at 10 when the body and mind is so young?  I don’t know! 

Thanks for replying. It’s indeed an fascinating subject and it’s always interesting to know what people think about such descriptions. I imagine that my DS would be viewed as ‘hothoused’ to some degree, judging by people’s thoughts. But I totally respect that it’s a subjective opinion everyone is entitled to. There are many other (hidden) factors that would might explain the number of classes he did, and why we chose them, some of them simply because of friendships etc. I know this thread more looks at this topic in relation to girls. But looking at boys of the same age in Japan, USA and some European countries on Instagram, there are boys of the same age going tens of hours a week, including physio and PBT that, entering competitions at very high levels, winning scholarships to international intensives, clearly with their eye of becoming PDL and YAGP winners. That would be my definition of hothousing. And as others have said, it must cost an absolute fortune. In comparison, I don’t know of any UK boy coming anywhere near as close to this level of training at a similar age. Even boys going to WL and other vocational schools might not even come close to this level of time and content…. though we can mostly only comment on what we see shared in social media, not what people are doing in private.
 

In relation to opinions about doing multiple classes, some of our UK associate classes are fortnightly with huge breaks between terms, so even appearing to do more than 1 or 2 associate classes doesn’t (in my view) come close to hothousing as the number of hours might still be relatively modest. 

Maybe to waters become a little bit muddier when private tuition starts to play a part, and for what outcome. 

5 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

@DD Driver Thanks for your perspective, it’s good to hear your experience. I think that we need to listen to where you’re coming from too. Having private lessons I guess is necessary to polish a variation to professional standard, not exactly hothousing because anyone performing needs that. I think the hothousing people are referring to is for auditions at a very young age for WL etc which is quite different! If you have supportive teachers here it is also possible to enter YAGP/Prix de Lausanne it’s just not done as commonly - there’s nothing stopping British kids from doing  the same if being trained still at home. There are many roads to Rome as it’s always being said here, and they all have their challenges. By the time a young person is thinking of upper schools it’s not unreasonable to expect that the competition is going to come globally and it’s our job as parents to research the best way of being prepared be it vocational or otherwise. Equally we can study abroad too. 

Purely out of curiosity and interest, regarding the observation about ‘hothousing for young  WL auditions’, what do you think qualifies as hothousing? Where do you think the line between ‘pursuing at a deeper level to recreation’ (even if that’s with a view to vocational school), and ‘hothousing’ exists? 

And in the spirit of lively, respectful, dynamic and multi-opinionated debate, I very much hope this thread stays open.

Reading both positive and negative opinions on the vocational route can indeed be very helpful food for thought when making immense decisions about your own child’s future. Any well researched or well intended parent should be doing that, as no one has a crystal ball.  The majority of the parents I know accepting their offers for WL (and other vocational schools) have not done that ‘in awe of the name’ or lightly. In the same way people who have chosen to decline their offers (or not even audition) and not go down this route also gave it immense consideration .
 

However, the frequent reality seems to be, in my short time on the forum, any mention of vocational training immediately comes under immense critique. Accusations from ‘hothousing’ our children at one end of the spectrum, or sending them on a ‘massive sleepover’ at the other. It feels like no one can proactively and with good intention discuss their participation in the path without being made to feel foolish or immensely naïve. 
 

I am as interested as anyone as to what the full three year foundation programme achieves, and what the results/statistics look like for those entering this year who will have done the full 3 years.  And certainly hope it’s an improvement for the better. 

1 minute ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

The school I had in mind is in Europe and has cheaper fees than the RBS. 

Yes, European fees are a dream in comparison to U.K. fees. That’s why we explored POB. I believe a full terms tuition and boarding is the same cost as 2 weeks at WL or Tring. 

13 minutes ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Language may be part of it admittedly but willingness is a big factor too. I used to work in a place that ran an exchange programme - students from overseas study in the U.K. for a term or two, U.K. students are sent overseas in exchange. Every year we were inundated with applications from students wanting to study in the U.K. temporarily even those with the minimum English proficiently requirement. We almost had to pay British students to go overseas even to countries known to speak English. We always wondered why. I grew up in a country where most people grow up bilingual so it was never an issue to go overseas, and most people I know have been placed in situations where they go and study somewhere where they don’t know the local language. Perhaps students should also explore schools beyond borders. However, it’s probably rarer to find U.K. students in upper schools overseas than vice versa. For example, I know of a highly rated vocational school overseas which only ever had one British student as far as I know (not RBS trained at any point). And yet every year British students, both from full time vocational schools here and non full time apply for that school’s summer intensive which is know to be an audition for their full time programme in itself.  So far, I haven’t seen anyone get through to their full time programme. Language barrier isn’t a problem - they have a lot of American students.

If, for example, we were discussing the National Ballet School in Canada, where their summer programme can lead to/function as audition time the main school…. Their annual fees are, off the top of my head, pretty much the same as RBS full boarding fees. I think the fees for the Australian Ballet are much the same: I don’t know, because I genuinely haven’t done the research, if there is any government scheme or grant similar to MDS that covers international fees. If there isn’t, it means that these schools are only for those who can afford £3-4K a month in fees, yet alone uniforms and modest living costs. I’d be fascinated to know if schemes exists to make English language training in Canada, Australia, New Zealand, even the United States an option.