joyofdance

My daughter didn't want to do A levels on leaving school. She had had enough of academia and at the time thought that she wanted to dance as a career. She did two years on a dance course and realised that she had lost her love of dance and the dance world generally, and didn't want to go in to the industry. On finishing the course she applied for uni and is now doing a degree that she loves and will hopefully give her a good career. I suppose my point is, let her follow her dream, it may or may not lead to a career in dance but I doubt she will regret it. My daughter doesn't regret her initial decision to go to dance college nor does she regret giving up dance for something she now realises that she is more passionate about. Things have a way of working out, especially at 16.

14 minutes ago, Mrs Brown said:

Oh I just assumed because of the short timescale there wouldn't be any programmes until the actual start.

 

I am not sure her teachers will be able to go but she normally does festivals on her own as noone else at the school wants to do festivals so we are used to it being just the two of us. Her teachers come when they can to our local one but they often aren't free as they are very busy. We don't mind, it is our choice to do festivals and they are very supportive of her with the dances but I do all the entries etc.

Oh I see. My daughter did them with her dance school support but on her own. She made some lovely friends at other dance schools and I met a few lovely parents who I am still friends with. I hope your daughter has a really lovely time.

I'm pretty sure that your dance school will get a programme before the comp. Ask the dance teacher. Are any of her dance teachers going with her for support?

My daughter did lots of different comps as an indep entry so was often the one competitor without dance school support. Mostly she made friends quickly and had positive experiences. The regionals and finals do tend to be a bit more competitive behind the scenes but nothing awful from our experience. My daughter experienced more not so nice competitive behaviour from her own dance school peers than she did from dancers from other schools so it very much depends on the schools performing so you never can tell what the atmosphere is going to be like. Hopefully your daughter will enjoy the experience and have a wonderful time. 

Hi, well done to your daughter. They can be a great experience. Depending on the region the standard can be very good and they are very well organised. My daughter did all England regionals and finals from age 7 to 14 and enjoyed every minute of them. On the whole they are very similar in format to most dance competitions albeit a bit stricter. On the whole we found the adjudicators to be fair and professional and whilst they had high expectations they always gave constructive feedback and positive comments. I have heard some negatives from some regional competitions and not all of the theatres were lovely but luckily the ones we went to were a good experience. 

It varies from dance school to school. One school my daughter danced with asked for a contribution of £30 towards costume hire for several dances and the venue was paid for via ticket sales I assume. Another asked for £15 and again charged for tickets to watch the show. I believe a small charge for costumes is the norm but happy to be corrected.

Great rant Peanut68 and I couldn't agree more. I watched an online college performance recently. There was a particular dance (a trio) and one of the dancers was quite heavy set (for a dancer) and not the typical desired body shape. Her artistry was amazing. I couldn't take my eyes off of her. She was one of those dancers who's movement and facial expressions captured the story beautifully. (She didn't put her leg over her head once or bend her spine in extreme contortions 🤣) I was totally captivated and moved and barely noticed the other two dancers. I couldn't help feeling though that the chances of her getting an industry role will be limited in the future. I sincerely hope that isn't the case but the cynic in me suspects it will be. I do hope in the future that there will be a big change in the dance world re this as dance for me is all about the artistry and expression.

13 hours ago, Beezie said:

For all these reasons, I cannot help but think that dance conflicts with many of my ideals in raising a strong and independent daughter.  As dance moms, I think we all see the positives of dance.  Otherwise, we wouldn’t encourage and support.  But in the back of my mind, I think:

- 1 in a million chance

- focus on looks and good genes

- focus on weight

- more bullying than normal activities 

- career that peaks in 20s

- female characters who are old-fashioned and usually victims, seeking the male protector/rescuer

- lack of diversity

- few women choreographers

- idea that the female dancer is the moldable muse

- stories of abuse and coverups

- need to please the director, at all costs

- injuries

- expense

Granted, I might have just explained lots of child sports….at least with a couple of these points.

 

If my child chooses university, she probably just proves to be sensible.  Many careers get better and better with age.  By mid-life, she may be an executive or business owner.  She is blazing her own trail, where there is less of a traditional framework and no premature end.

 

But in the meantime, dreams and passion are part of learning who we are.  We should all dream and we should all chase our dreams.  
 

Perhaps it is knowing when to change our dreams.  And how to keep our dreams always aligned with our best and most healthy selves.  

 

 

Absolutely agree with all of this Beezie. One of the most frustrating aspects for my daughter is being aware of the fact that much of dance is about how you look and not about talent. She and her friends have often seen dancers chosen for certain roles/opportunities because they "have the look" above those with stronger technique and artistry. Up until puberty hit and her body started to change shape she had dreams of being a ballerina and was encouraged to focus on ballet with a view to going to vocational ballet school. Fortunately we didn't go down that route as I suspect had she gained a place she would have either been assessed out or possibly developed an eating disorder (as did a few of her peers) Whilst there are a few examples of dancers who don't fit the desired aesthetics being successful it is still very rare.  

5 hours ago, taxi4ballet said:

This was at upper school. My dd suffered an injury during training and it wasn't taken seriously enough. It was misdiagnosed by the physios, and the teaching staff thought she wasn't trying hard enough to recover and regain strength. I suspect that they thought she was malingering. She had to sit out of months of full training. She got no pastoral care or support whatsoever. There was also a separate issue which we had asked that all the staff be made aware of, so they would be able to accommodate her needs. We her parents, and dd all thought that the teachers had been informed, so they could support her. They hadn't. Nobody joined the dots. DD was terrified of being assessed out so didn't (literally couldn't) make a fuss. None of the teachers took her to one side and talked to her about it, or came up with a plan of action. None of her teachers went to the physios and said 'It's been five months and she still can't dance properly, we need to get this sorted out'. It was only when they told her that she needed to think about leaving and finishing her training elsewhere that we demanded that she be referred for a full medical assessment. Only then did the seriousness of the injury was discovered. By which time it was far, far too late. She couldn't stand it any more.

 

And if you work at a vocational school and this sounds vaguely familiar, yes it is your school I'm talking about, and the way you let a 17-year-old suffer was a disgrace.

That is awful and truly shocking. Organisations like this should be held to account but I suspect given the many examples and failures to learn lessons that they are not.

58 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

This is very true. And I think it is something that can be hard for us as parents to admit, even to ourselves.

*Of course* it is mainly about our DCs, how they feel and are affected but we are people who have put a lot into the journey too. We have made sacrifices of many different kinds. We had hopes and dreams. We get hurt and disappointed too, before you even get to the guilt thing! And that's ok. We are allowed to be sad for ourselves as well as our DCs.

I've been relatively lucky compared to many here. My DD is happy and content with what she is doing now. She's learned a lot from her experiences and has embarked on a teaching career with very firm ideas on how she wants things to be. But there's still a lot I regret and if I could wind the clock back I'd make lots of different decisions. However, it is always worth remembering that whilst different choices would have led to different experiences, there is no guarantee that they would have been better. I could have prevented DD from having some very unpleasant experiences if I had made some different decisions (or encouraged her to do so) but the alternatives would almost certainly have had other negatives. We tend to overlook that possibility when we reflect on things that have happened. It's human nature to assume that if, so to speak, you picked path A and it took you to the witches cottage, path B must have been the one that goes straight to the crock of gold. Real life is of course not like that, and all paths will have their ups and downs, rewards, disappointments, dangers and opportunities. When we are grieving we tend to only see the negatives of our chosen path and the presumed positives of the alternatives. That's ok, and completely normal, but in my experience, time does help. Allow yourself time to do that grieving OP, and things will get better in time as your DD goes on to other great things.

That is all very true and insightful. I am sad mostly for selfish reasons as watching her dance brought me great joy but I also feel sad because I am so dissapointed that adults who claim to be intelligent professionals can behave this way and seemingly get away with it. Both myself and my daughter are made of strong stuff so we will always strive to turn negatives in to positives and come away stronger and happier 😁 

18 minutes ago, Waverley said:

I hope your DD enjoys uni @joyofdance and that in time it will feel like its been worth it.

 

I've said before on this forum that it is extremely helpful for those of us with younger children to hear both the good and the bad about dance training from those of you who have gone further down the path already. 

 

Can I ask something - and this is in no way intended to dismiss or belittle the issues or experiences mentioned above...  For those of you whose children have had negative experiences/feel 'broken' in some way - when did it start to change? When did those kinds of issues arise? Was it at a certain school or a type of school or at a certain age etc? 

 

I think for us we are still in what is perhaps a lucky position where we haven't encountered - yet - toxic behaviours/an ultra competitive environment/any form of mentally inappropriate or damaging teaching.  Our dance school is very nurturing, the associates programme we have experience of is excellent. I can see (on social media) that there are certain dance schools I would never consider sending my children to but we have no reason to come across them. At the moment, dance is an entirely happy thing (which  I am very grateful for). 

 

I guess I am hoping to learn if there is a common age/time/level of training when people felt it all changed or whether that is very much down to individual circumstances.

 

Please feel free to PM if you'd rather - I appreciate the dance world is very small but as I've said before it's very helpful for those of us with younger children to hear from more experienced dance parents. 

For my daughter the issues didn't really start until about age 9 when she moved from a small village dance school to a more competitive "popular" school. Interestingly it was a lovely and well meaning dance teacher at the village school that suggested it as she saw potential in my daughter and didn't think that the one she taught at could offer her the standard of teaching she needed etc. The new school had a very good reputation and is known around the competition dance circuit and amongst some of the top dance schools in the UK. She loved it there and the standard of teaching was excellent. We were asked several times to allow her to join the competition team but initially resisted . The competition team and their parents had a bit of a reputation and there were often drama's and gossip and it all seemed a bit OTT so we were very reluctant. She desperately wanted to do comps and events so eventually we let her.  Very soon we saw first hand why there were so many drama's and also witnessed the bullying from teachers and the culture that encouraged the children to behave in the same way. Fortunately we managed to stay out of it for quite a while but I regret not pulling her out sooner as the toxic nature of the school was by then obvious. It is important to stress that for quite a long time my daughter wasn't targeted however the things she witnessed had a big impact on her and in hindsight I realise that she became quite fearful. Also in all honesty I got sucked in to the "that is the way dance is" mentality for a while. I think I was partly to blame for her being targeted toward the end of her time there as I did challenge (politely) a few things around their teaching style (not aimed at my daughter but general concerns) Also to a certain extent I kept a tight reign and didn't let her  be involved in everything all of the time or let her have ridiculously expensive private lessons. The dance school owner accused me of trying to sabotage my daughters future in dance 🤣 After a while I started to see my daughter being targeted and was told by others who had been there a lot longer than me that it was because I spoke out and to keep quiet or it could get worse. Of course I didn't keep quiet, and it did get worse. To cut a long story short, we moved her to another dance school (after being assured by the owner how nurturing they were and how they do not bully or tolerate bullying) and it was sadly the same. The last few  years she has been at a school that are not perfect but equally not as bad as her previous schools but she has been part of various associates  performance opportunities and and workshops and has seen how pervasive the bullying and intimidation tactics are across the board.  Being in the competition/performing circuit had many benefits and she had some wonderful times and personal achievements but you get to know a lot of the dance schools and on the whole  whatever they spout on SM about how wonderful they are and how dedicated and loyal their students are, it often isn't true. Most have very effectively taught their students (and parents) not to dare challenge and to show adoration and loyalty. I know of some that have gone as far as to instruct students and parents to write positive comments or posts.  I also know of students and parents to this day that write gushing SM  posts full of obsequious compliments when in reality they feel angry and dissolutioned but they do it to curry favour. (Not to mention the ridiculous practice of buying expensive gifts for the dance school owners)  This may seem an extreme thing to say but at times I've felt like our dancing children and their parents are being groomed by narcissists and some children who have been on the worst end of it are trauma bonded and unable to walk away.  In terms of my daughter, she loves to compete and perform but she doesn't have a "cut throat" nature so finds all of the jealousy, back biting and over inflated egos too difficult to handle. She has had a taste of the industry recently and said its pretty much more of the same. I think over the years she has been part of and witnessed the more negative side of dance and just wants out. Like others have said on this post  some children will never see that side or have any awful experiences but for the ones that do it can cause a lot damage. Fortunately my daughter has always had other interests and is doing well academically so she feels confident (as much as you can be) that she has a bright future so I hope in time the damage that was done will be a distant memory. 

47 minutes ago, Peanut68 said:

It is almost a bereavement isn’t it... when so much energy, time, focus & finds have been directed towards one sodcifhc goal, letting go is hard for us supporting actors....

It definitely is Peanut68. As I said before there is a part of me that is relieved that she is moving away from dance. I imagine that once I have stopped (secretly) grieving, I will hopefully be able to think about the positive experiences she has had and leave behind my anger about the negative ones. Thank you all, reading your responses has been a real help and being able to share my thoughts and feelings has been quite cathartic. 

14 hours ago, RosiesDream said:

Well, I'm now in my eighth decade, and in my experience, this sort of thing is not confined to the dance world. If one ventures into any walk of life there are toxic elements, be it in the performing arts or the sports world, and when my children were growing up, we experienced it in both. However, they have come through unscathed and although they may not be taking the West End by storm or winning Olympic gold, I believe their experience has been a positive one in the long run, because in adult life, they have the confidence to deal with those difficult situations effectively. Like in Love, it is better to have danced and called it a day, than never to have danced at all.

I have no experience but I imagine sport is similar. I do think my daughter has gained a lot of positives from her involvement but I do wonder sometimes at what cost. Fortunately I think she is getting out of it early enough to hopefully take the good bits forward and leave the negative experiences behind her. I was chatting to her this afternoon about it all and she does seem really resilient and is very excited about the future so that is good. I think I am suffering the affects of it all and the loss more than she is 🤣  

19 minutes ago, cotes du rhone ! said:

We are exactly a year ahead of you following a similar journey. 
In December 2020 our daughter did one last performance, took a selfie in her beautiful snowflake costume and hung up her pointe shoes. She hasn’t danced since. Like your daughter got her first choice university and has never looked back. She is blooming 🥰 After the initial feelings of loss and sadness for her it was absolutely the best decision and we are so proud of her bravery for walking away from her addiction that caused her so much pain. We have never seen her this happy and healthy in over 8 years. She has made some amazing new friends and is living a new dream. It has taken a year for us to start the recovery from ballet training. Financially that will take years 🤣 We feel less anxious and so much more positive about the future. I sleep a lot better and cry less. 
Was it worth it ? Probably not. 
I sometimes on a this forum feel like the dementor of ballet. Sucking all the happiness out of the room 😢 But parents need to know what they are signing up for and not just get sweep away with it all. We don’t have a chip on our shoulders,we aren’t angry, we hold no grudges as we know what goes around comes around and those bullying, spiteful people that our children and us encountered can’t surely have the love, support and wonderful future that we have together. 
I’m so happy for your daughter and congratulations on her securing a place at university🥳 Some people talk of the resilience and other positive skills that ballet children acquire during their training and my daughter has, but balance that with the physical, psychological and emotional damage that she endured and the demons that still lurk in the shadows and I would say the negatives out way the positives.
Keep looking forward 💪 🥰 

Thank you for your insights. I too have often felt like the negative voice both on here and amongst dance Mum friends. I suppose in many ways I never really fitted in because I was always the one to speak up and challenge poor practice and toxic cultures. My daughters dance years were not purely in ballet but in several genres and she has been part of a couple of dance schools, associates etc that are highly competitive however the types of bullying and cultures are the same. I sometimes regret speaking out as it didn't do my daughter any favours in the long run but I couldn't sit back and let her or others be the brunt of some peoples over inflated egos and cruel streaks. Reading all of these responses has been really helpful as sometimes you can feel a bit alone with your worries, thoughts and feelings so its good to hear the positive experiences that young people are having since leaving the world of dance. 

Thank you MrsMoo2. How amazing that you were able to turn something so awful in to something so wonderful. Its good to hear peoples experiences and perspectives. I agree a lot has changed over the years however I can't help feeling that whilst most teachers now are aware that physical punishment or assault as it should be called is not acceptable, those same personality types are still amongst us. Especially in the competitive industry which my daughter was/is part of. Their bullying tactics are much more subtle but nonetheless damaging. Thank goodness we have trained professionals like you who are able to help people recover. Whilst my daughter has had many unhappy times and awful experiences she was fortunate to also have had some fantastic times and personal achievements so maybe now is the right time for her to get out before anymore damage is done. Just writing this down and reading the reply's has made me feel much better and I'm starting to realise that my daughter is stronger and more sussed than perhaps I give her credit for. 

10 minutes ago, Anna C said:

If I had a pound for every time I beat myself up about my parenting, especially decisions made around ballet, I would be a millionaire, joyofdance.  But we can’t go back in time, and at the time we’re doing the best we can with the knowledge we have - plus we don’t want to be the one to deny our child the chance to follow her dreams.  Hindsight is a wonderful thing, and there are things I regret now, like behaviour I tolerated from teachers, a full time “school” I wish I’d never let my dd attend, and so on.  Ballet has taken its toll on her, physically and mentally.  The saddest thing was that the choice to go down the academic route was only partially dd’s, mostly it was made for her by her body, and the injury she sustained.  Whatever made your daughter choose academics, if it was her *choice*, that’s positive.

 

BUT - and it’s a big but - there were many many positives, joyous moments, performance opportunities, lovely friends made (for both dd and me), lovely summer schools, some absolutely wonderful teachers, transferable skills, even the independence to take herself up to London on the train every Saturday and navigate buses and tubes alone - so many benefits that I’m sure I’m forgetting some.  Certainly her “journey” back from a serious injury, having a year out and a long, painful recovery, going back to school for A Levels, getting her RAD Adv 2 just for personal satisfaction, all clearly made her an interesting (and successful) candidate for Oxbridge where she’s now studying (and dancing for fun on the Uni’s competition team).  

 

Once she stepped off the audition/full-time ballet roller coaster, she suddenly found dance fun again with no pressure.  She loves having “Dance friends” from her own and other Colleges and “subject/College friends.  There are dance social events, competitions, it keeps her fitness up, and is a welcome break from academic work.  I can definitely recommend it, even if your dd wants to steer clear of ballet and switch to jazz, tap, or even hip-hop! 

 

It’s probably all very raw for you right now, and I completely understand that.  When we see our beloved children hurt, grieving, injured, and we see the lasting effects the ballet world has had on them, it’s natural to feel sad, angry, and even bitter.  It can be a brutal, toxic environment, but it’s what they wanted to do at the time, and none of us have a crystal ball.  With time, with support - with counselling, if necessary - the grief lessens and the love of dance often returns.  “Was it worth it?” is the million dollar question, and one you may never have the answer to, but it is what it is.  

 

Who knows, ballet and all its downsides may be partly what’s helped to give your dd the resilience and determination to get into her first choice of uni - no mean feat - and hopefully she will continue to dance there, with all the fun and benefits to enjoy, and friends to make.  I hope she’ll have such a happy time. 

You are absolutely right. Funnily enough she is confident and happy in her decision and I am the one feeling sad and at times bitter, although I definitely don't let her know this. I'm so pleased to hear that your daughter and other people on the threads children came out the other end stronger and successful in their chosen path. I do have faith that my daughter will be the same. Interestingly she tells me that many of her friends that are staying on to do dance really don't want to but they are either too frightened and nervous to take the leap or don't have confidence in themselves in other areas. Many of them know that they will be unlikely to get work in the industry but still can't bring themselves to leave/change direction.  I think I am just in a bit of a grieving process and will hopefully feel better once I see her settled and happy at Uni.

Just take comfort your DD made her own informed decision and that the change of direction wasn’t made by someone else. For that you have to be grateful. 

That is an excellent point Balletbean. I hadn't thought of it that way. Thank you.

Thank you all. She has made some lovely friends through dance but is looking forward to leaving behind the more toxic personality's that she has had to endure. I am hoping that due to her attending a Uni course with students with diverse interests that she is less likely to come across the nasty personalities and competitiveness that often comes with the dance industry from teachers and students alike. I do feel excited for her and I hope she doesn't stop dancing completely. There is a dance society at her chosen Uni so hopefully she will do that for fun and enjoy it. I agree that she has gained a lot from dance so maybe it wasn't all wasted. I suppose I am just sad about the reasons that she has chosen leave.   

My child is giving up dancing after training in various genres for over 12 years. She has decided to follow an academic route at University and has applied and been accepted at her first choice Uni. I am proud of her and happy for her and encouraged her in her decision to move on. In many ways I am  relieved that she has chosen not to continue but i can't help feeling sad and at times angry about the underlying reasons behind her decision. I know this has been discussed in various topics over the years so sorry if I am dragging it up and picking at old wounds for anyone, but the reality is that had the dance world (non vocational) not been so toxic over the years then she would be pursuing something that she loved and is very talented in. I don't think my daughter was particularly unlucky in experiencing some very negative dance schools, dance teachers, bullying etc, it seems it is par for the course in the majority of dance related settings. It makes me wonder if things will ever change as dance environments seem to be a law unto themselves. I see so many social media posts from dance teachers/schools (apologies to any out there who are not like this) who spout about nurturing, support, being a "family etc" when the reality is, and I say this from personal experience, that they are absolutely awful practitioners who are the cause or catalyst for turning talented students away from the profession and the cause of much sadness and self esteem issues amongst young people. I've seen this with my daughter and many of her dancing friends. Whilst I recognise that training in dance does have a lot of positives for those involved I am currently pondering on the old age question of, was it all worth it? I gave her many opportunities and support in the past to walk away but she held on to her dream so I did what I could to support her.  I'm really hoping  that in time I will stop feeling regret and dissapointed at what could have and should have been a far easier and more enjoyable journey for her. If anyone has any words of wisdom or positive stories of moving on, please share them so that I can stop feeling guilty about not being more forceful in redirecting her years ago, not to mention the time, sweat, tears and money 🤣. Hopefully it wasn't all wasted.

Thank you everyone for your responses. You have been extremely helpful and given me some great information and possible courses to look at. This is such a good forum to be part of. ❤ 

1 hour ago, taximom said:

If your DD is doing a BTech L3 Extended Diploma it is the equivalent of 3 A levels and accepted for entry for Uni - 3 x Distinctions or Distinction Stars are the same as 3 x A's at A level. Check out UCAS.

 

Heather akaTaximom

Yes she is taxi. That is worth following up thank you. 

5 hours ago, LaCamargo said:

Sent a DM about suitable courses.

 

Thank you so much.

5 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

There are several dance colleges that offer degree courses alongside dance teaching qualifications I think... though funding may need to be checked as im not 100% sure where they stand for student loans etc...

Thinking LSC does this??? There is if course the RAD but I guess the genre focus will be Classical Ballet. Am sure others here will confirm & add additional suggestions.

Many insist too on an Intermediate exam pass as a dance qualification entry requirement so it probably would be a good idea for your DD to get Inter in her one or more of her genres 

Good luck! 

Thank you Peanut

1 hour ago, balletbean said:

Good Luck. We all receive an education where our children are concerned 😉of which I believe we all deserve an Honorary degree 👩‍🎓🙂

Very true 🤣

Just now, balletbean said:

I understand. Unis can be quite accommodating. Especially if they can see the continuous study of a particular subject by a student. Don’t forget any dance exams taken after Grade 6 would give your DD the much needed UCAS points. Including LAMDA examinations. 
I’m not aware of anyone that has studied all 3 genres at the same time as there are so many different grades within each genre to study. I would think it’s quite overwhelming. Having said that I’m sure someone probably has but I personally don’t know of anyone. 

Thank you. I suspected that they were stand alone genres. Re the dance exams. She did dance exams in modern, tap, ballet, Greek and if I remember correctly national up until the age of 11. She did grade 6 (might need to check that but I am fairly sure) after that she moved dance schools to a school that didn't do exams. Based on what you say it might be an idea to look at her doing those exams in the next year. I am not sure how feasible that is as I know very little about them.