Peanut68

Where was this Jan?

I don’t want to be bleak but I’d hate to think of a stunningly staged & dressed cast but dancing just to recorded music in some venues…. Cannot there be sone such fundraising drive to help support the costs of keeping orchestra/live music… Elsewhere Emeralds made very good points that Galas are a great way to raise funds & others do it very successfully…but that also you need to grab the punters to go to your event otherwise they may spend their dosh elsewhere! Look how quickly Dance for Ukraine was conceived & staged….NB surely could look to stage a ‘support our orchestra’ gala - maybe even tour it!! I’d definitely support…. And let’s face it people do like to get something for money…. What could be better than an evening of wonderful NB ballet snippets accompanied by their wonderful sinfonia!

I’ve said it before…. I vote Emeralds for Prime Minister!! You speak so much logic - I only wish I could believe that the decision makers of arts funding bodies & charity trustees & board members of organisations like NB hear & understand these very pertinent points….and adjust decisions & reassign funding & management efforts to better effect!

Good point re: boys & positive affirmation of in a class with more than just 1-2 Out of interest (nosiness really!) when you say £950 for 5 days is that the cost residential at WL intensives or the upper school fees? Thought they were about that non-residential 😱

Can I please ask if it was DaDa funding for Upper School or a continuation of MDS funding from having been at lower school? My understanding is MDS - even if in US - does not hinder student loan eligibility but DaDa funding might…. And very pleased things have worked out so well for your offspring & congrats to them & good luck on their journey x

You are spot on with suggestion of an Arena venue for this type of ballet! Maximise the income where you can when you have the opportunity to cross pollinate as it were with rock fans who would generally frequent stadium type locations to see bands. I’ve not seen this (nor have tickets to…. am curious to see it but when I have to eek out limited budget & limited evenings out it was lower on wishlist I’m afraid) But I do congratulate anything that proves a commercial success & especially if bringing in new audiences who may well become future regular ballet goers… To add…. Rambert definitely achieved this with recent Peaky Blinders;- I saw this in Southampton & it was pretty much a total full house with I reckon over 60% being non traditional dance audience members…. It was a bit like a comicon style evening with an awful lot dressed for the event! But it was respectful & genuinely enjoyed by all & I reckon many many new converts to dance as an option for entertainment!

I’d hoped to go but couldn’t make it happen… would be interested to read reviews & know what people think of this type of format & presentation…. It all sounded pretty impressive!

I do believe subject choice can have sone bearing… certainly funding is possible for midwifery & other medical related degrees I understand…. Lifesfterballet - you mention your DD is doing a Bsc… is this also healthcare related possibly? Congrats to your offspring with achieving their post ballet academic studies!

Not sure what your comment is meant to mean - could you please elaborate Petit Jete Thanks

Oh I’m sorry to hear this & am not really up to date on staff etc there…. In my experience day pupils at almost all vocational schools seem to take additional outside classes/coaching & can put themselves at an advantage (though risk burn out IMO too). When you say returned to old boarding houses, surely not to Hampton Lodge? Last time I happened to be near Chester I did a nostalgia drive-by & was saddened (though not surprised) to see it empty & up for sale. But what was so sad was how decrepit it was…. Empty buildings deteriorate so quickly. But -tbh - it was not really fit for purpose in this day & age…. The most recent extensions were the proverbial ‘icing on dog mess’ providing more beds to share pretty dire dining & relax facilities etc. It needed vacating, pulling down all the modern bits & doing a sympathetic to its original period architecture & features - a restoration to preserve the history of the school too with its dance studio! To then be perhaps a study centre for the school or upper school accommodation in a few created flats…. But of course that would require money a school could not justify… Clovelly was legions better but still pretty dire…. But both had their highs & lows of memories & will provide former boarders with great stories to tell their grandkids!!

The issue here of course could be finances…. Not just whether or not they can qualify for a student loan… most students still require sone parental assistance (eg. Live back with family during uni breaks - often rent free with food & laundry all thrown in - ha ha! This enables them to perhaps work to earn money to help top up to be self supporting in ‘term/semester’ time. Many mature students - even aged just say 18-20 may not have the luxury of this or parents may be unable/unwilling to provide this or other help (particularly if huge sums have erstwhile been pumped into funding vocational training for the dance career) Likewise a mature student post dance training or even dance career may be in a partnership (even be a parent) so remember household income (so partner earnings) could also present financial limitations on student loan options & also on opportunities. No one I imagine sees gaining further education as easy as simply deciding to go back to it but it can be an impossible dream out of reach to many, thus maybe limiting their future career opportunities/earnings etc. Time again? Well, I’d have not gone to ‘ballet’ school (I use inverted commas as in the 1980’s I got just 3 ballet lessons a week at so called ‘ballet school’ - yes one of those in the panorama programme! What a rip off & waste of time & lost regular academic education time….sigh) And would I have sent my young person fully aware & thinking through all the gorier connotations??? Well, yes, quite likely but maybe not until post 16 or even 18 as there are ever increasing opportunities to commence training post 18 & post A level or similar studies & at that age specialisation & dance genre suitability & personal ambition & work diligence or not is all pretty firmed up & so at a time of life to fully make the very best use of this (& possibly gain a degree in dance too). And if not all that money spent in early years training there’s more family ability & happiness to assist financially! Lots to think on.. Why the pressure to train so intensively so young? There’s no Olympics in ballet (YAGP etc not withstanding!!! Yes - that’s where IMHO stupid getting ever better ever younger pressures & expectations get continually promoted.) Most countries like UK now expect young people to continue in main stream education until at least 18 & few commence any specific career related training until after that (ok - I appreciate many undertake apprenticeships…. Time again I reckon plumbing trumps ballet for an early career progression & hood long term earning prospects!) The era of the baby ballerina is surely outdated, outmoded & really not necessary is it? I’d get no extra thrill seeing a great Aurora & thinking ‘wow, and at only 15/16/17/18 too!’ I’m more than happy to wait to see a well trained & happy living dancer aged 20 & then any age upwards dancing in Corps or solo roles! Just my thoughts….

I vote RB management is culled to be replaced with a board of knowledgeable & common sense forum contributors who I think are far more clued up as to what audiences want & will do the job democratically & diligently to the betterment of ballet for all! Contentious??? Moi??? 😈

To go a little way back to the original thread topic…. Today I visited a very wonderful friend… a former professional dancer with a long career stretching across many art forms over many decades. Very sadly they are longterm in hospital & certainly they are struggling with (what I think is a recurrence of previous episodes)eating disorders. I do not have full knowledge & I respectfully only mention this as it highlights very real issues affecting dancers today but that could continue to affect them throughout their lives. We need to do our absolute utmost to educate those teaching & caring for our young folk (us parents included) to have full knowledge of this insidious illness & to know the signs & triggers & also to ensure there is full accountability should their (or our) actions in any way lead to this debilitating lifelong illness/addiction. It may start through body shaming/body dysmorphia/just wanting to be a better dancer or to be liked or to be like a favourite dancer on social media or to be like the ‘teachers favourite’ etc etc or to get attention or as a cry for help… bit as with many things prevention is key as I don’t think there really is a cure… only tools to learn to live without it impacting/recurring. But once it’s been a part of someone then they may be susceptible to repeat episodes. When things don’t go to plan they can revert to learned behaviour of something they could control - their weight. And especially if there have been incidents where weight loss was prompted or applauded it’s a way to feel a sense of success too. I am sure professionals would word this far better than I am doing. I do sense that life threatening issues today are as a result of the historically unhealthy practises & norms that for decades have been accepted as ‘just part of a dancers life’. I am aware of course this is not unique to the dance world but am noting this forum & thread in particular is specifically related to ballet & ballet training. I pray that their demons can be once more locked away - but they will forever be a part of them. It has to be imperative that we as a society & as an industry wise up to do our very best to prevent them ever becoming an option to young dancers or indeed anyone. I pray my friend can once more enter into a better recovery phase & regain their life once more 🙏

I think some level 6 qualifications such as a Trinity Level 6 Diploma may impact on student loan funding availability if one were to start a new 3-4 year degree. There are I believe some possible (eg. Nursing I think is one) but then how many studying at vocational dance school will have gained necessary A-Levels for these? It is rather unfair as often a Trinity Level 6 Diploma has been self funded or by DaDa - so not from the student loan pot of money - and as loans have to be paid back surely this policing should change?

It can never be underestimated how trauma can affect an individual.....& I empathize with your daughters situation & wish her the very best recovery from injury & coming to terms with past negative experiences. Not comparable....but I felt so jaded by bad vocational experience that it affected how I felt about the whole world of ballet & it was over 20 years before I discovered I could allow myself to enjoy it again both as an audience member & doing recreational adult ballet classes (& after 10 years a vocational exam....stick that you miserable snide Deputy Head of Dance!!!)

Apologies if it's not appropriate to post this here - Mods, do please delete if not! Struggling to make family logistics work to go to this... 2 tickets, front row circle, £48.26 each (Please note, E-Tickets get sent to purchasers just 24 hours before show date but can share purchase email etc) https://lwtheatres.co.uk/whats-on/an-evening-with-adrian-edmondson/ DM if anyone is interested - thank you

I think you will find that certainly 2 if not more of the dancers were referring to Upper School experiences.... They may have all been through the schools mentioned lower schools (or moved from one to the other) but my feeling was that some of the very worst experiences shared were from age 16+ so in Upper School - perhaps a continuation of poor practices begun in lower schools but not necessarily. Without knowing the exact school history of each individual we will not know this but I definitely think both RBS & Elmhurst Upper Schools were directly implicated in the programme & I'm sure many of us on here would add other schools - both lower & upper & those that are only from age 16+/colleges/conservatoires/universities to the list of those with dubious standards in teaching/leadership/pastoral care - the ballet world & the 'normal' one too! My advice to families of new starters is to be aware of the 'honeymoon period' of vocational training. Early days often do not flag up issues & also many students feel unable to share any negative stories after perhaps years of begging to go in to full time training & huge family time/financial sacrifices.... I know I myself - when I finally made it to ballet school - was so utterly disappointed by rubbish experience but dare not share with my single parent family for fear of the 'I told you so' & the anxiety of the money they could ill afford that had already been spent on dance uniform/travel/boarding kit/audition fees etc etc. Nor could I have coped with the 'tail between legs' going back to my old 'normal school' & the mocking that I'm sure i would've got from old school 'friends'....at 16 I had no concept that you could complain to authority figures or that my county council funding should've given me a right to expect certain standards...I worried I'd have to pay back the money to the council & my family could lose their home if had to find such money....so i 'sucked it up' & put up & shut up....& left with no career advice over 2 years other than 'if you are serious about a career in ballet then you need to seriously consider a bust reduction' said by Deputy Head of Dance in a ballet class in front of others!! That I now see was CHILD ABUSE!! And - horrifically - one girl (& I think aged only 17 at the the time) actually went overseas & had a bust reduction operation in a school holiday.....I can only hope that this had no adverse effects on her longterm but I do recall being horrified at the actual mechanics of the operation (removing & resewing on of nipple area etc) & the scaring in the first few months after the operation. I truly hope that it was never a regretted decision by this young woman or her family but honestly - how could this ever have been deemed appropriate advice for a minor aged under 18 in a school setting? And this teacher? Well, they are on the board of governors for one prestigious vocational school today!!! Their words haunted me all my adult life & I have always had a very negative relationship with my female anatomy.... I never shared this story with my parent & never really shared just what a waste of time & money those 2 years at a 'top ballet school' were...& I do often wonder 'what might have been' had the teachers been better, or there have not been such stigma or feeling of failure or shame of dropping out had I left. So ask your young folk very invasive questions. Take 'happy happy' with a pinch of salt & delve deeper....& trust your gut & their gut instincts too....& always, always let them know that a change of heart/mind/path/school is just one step along the path to their future & happiness today is paramount to achieve longterm life happiness! Sorry...last part does sound a bit trite....but I do feel that my bad vocational time really messed me up & STILL has an impact on me (& even on my relationship with ballet) over 30 years later.

Have to say this didn’t sound like my cup of tea but I absolutely applaud any new way to present ballet to bring in a new fresh audience…& to inject funds through sell out box office takings! Surely with signs well in advance of dates of of sell-out shows more could be scheduled? Gotta get the money in whilst you can!

Bad luck & hope you feel better soon x You don’t say where this performance is….???

Rather a sweeping statement & absolutely not always the case… many change from one lower vocational school to a different upper school for a variety of reasons (eg. To specialise in a more distinct type of dance like ballet or contemporary or MT or to join a degree course - this could be a finance choice a fees often less & a student loan is possible so less reliance on parental money) And not all lower schools have an upper school (eg YDA - nit sure of new name) and many upper schools have no lower schools (eg. ENBS/Central/Rambert/RCS & many more training places) Until you are in it there is no way to pre-judge whether a former happy training experience can go on in that way or may transform into a terrible time. And I’m sure it can happen in reverse that a poor lower school training experience may move into a very fulfilling upper school training time - at same institution or a new one

Also if it’s a new upper school (ie. Student has not been in their lower school) it’s potentially harder to settle in & be accepted by the teachers/other students as they have no prior knowledge of your ability or already have their ‘friendship groups’ & can make new joiners feel unable to be up to the mark/feel unwanted & subsequently might drop out of subject/s

But it could depend on whether they are accredited by universities in the ‘standard’ sense rather that deemed ‘private’….Of specific dance training institutions offering degrees I think only the ‘conservatoire’ ones are this…. So Central, Rambert, RCS, Laban (others??) I think dance degrees offered elsewhere are deemed ‘private’ (BTUK, LSC, Laine & others…incl RBS perhaps?) Dance degrees at mainstream unis would fall under this scrutiny but they are not so specifically linked to producing professional dance artists.

On various previous topics myself & others have said similar things… where is the auditing? Where is the holding the management accountable? This has to be from the teachers right up to senior management & trustees…and government also as they provide the funding through MDS/DaDa & Arts Council funding & bestwing of charitable status & also recognising the role & possible control played by sponsors (individuals or corporates…I think here of recent sponsorship by a Japaneses corporate to encourage attendance of Japanese dancers at RBS….why???!) If an academic school consistently has failures (hate using that word but here I am likening ‘assessing out’ to failing or below average scores in national curriculum exams like SATS or GCSE’s or key stage progression) then surely individual teachers, subject heads, school headmasters & school/trust business leaders would all be directly looked at & held accountable…. And for any safeguarding or pastoral issues too! Why are the vocational dance schools not seemingly similarly judged? I guess we ‘the paying public’ maybe need to vote with our feet…. But those dreams (fed from the legacy of ‘better days’ or perhaps even lack of knowledge of what just went on then & now) will forever mean we go gooey eyed at the prospect of our youngsters being ‘Royal’ or similar! Any school receiving government funding in my opinion should be answerable to the same standards in all areas as any other government funded school or institution….and any financial arrangements similarly assessed for suitability…. But again, if viewing as a business…what are we judging as success? Where is the ROI (return on investment) for the many millions pumped into government backed vocational dance schools if the vast majority fail to even make it through the schools training programme let alone secure a dance job in UK thus becoming tax payers putting back into the system? If selection is poor - then challenge this’d selecting? Clearly not up to the job! Though of course we’ve discussed here too about ‘changes’ which will of course lead to sone natural attrition… but the massive % of dancers assessed out or not asked to continue to next stage at RBS is surely above what could be deemed ‘normal’ or acceptable. So, challenge the selection criteria & people creating/judging it! Then the teachers & ‘curriculum’ that is clearly failing to match to provide dancers of the standard their own schools have established. If it’s unrealistic - then challenge it…. They should be fighting to keep their jobs! If most of their students ‘fail’ then they have failed & should be ‘let go’ - or as I say if it’s ‘the system’ or unrealistic targets then they should feel able to challenge & change this by working with their department & school heads. And I’m now seeing a glaring part of the problem…. The inappropriate behaviour of some heading up organizations. One AD seems more interested in teaching & judging at overseas events/competitions than attending UK auditions or own school assessments/classes…. surely they should regularly teach each & every pupil within their school regularly to keep a grip on how their staff & students are progressing & to know if their ‘curriculum’ & selection process & training & staff are fit for purpose? any jumbled thoughts here…my own opinions from personal experience of 3 funded schools & knowledge of the fourth from several families with very recent pupils. I want our tax payers to get value for money & out Dance industry to get the home born & home trained talent that tax money is supposed to be providing! We are all investing…. We deserve to see a return on this!

I imagine rules vary based on age of entry/length of study too as you mention DS is 14 so therefore very unlikely he’d be trying to work (so I imagine visas etc easier to gain…)

Not to mention the parties/clubbing sessions & no doubt sexual experimentations & house share options which could all be somewhat less available/appropriate as a mature student!!