Kate_N

Oh that's just awful. Awful.

shudder … it’s like adult ballet students who turn up to classes in pointe shoes, when they can’t hold turn out on the flat, let alone on demi. It’s a fantasy of what ballet is, rather than the reality.

Jewel's advice is excellent - before you set your heart on a particular school or course, it would be useful to be assessed by someone who hasn't taught you, but understands what qualities are needed to be accepted into vocational (pre-professional) training with a view to a career in dance. As @Jewel says, exams aren't everything, but at this distance, it gives posters an idea of your training level, in order to give you sound advice.

@Maryy the main things are going to be your level of training, talent/ability, and your body's facility for ballet. The schools mentioned take the top students of their age group in the pool of auditioning students. What sort of level are you currently training at? You mention RAD - what examinations have you taken & what were your results? Because if you're not outstanding in terms of training, ability, and facility, then you need to think really carefully about what you do next, and what benefits & opportunities you'll receive for the fees and living costs of studying internationally. It is possible to have a very satisfying career in dance without dancing in a classical ballet company - a degree in dance will give you training to be a teacher, a community arts worker, an arts producer professional just to name a few destinations for graduates.

Maryy, welcome to BalletC forum. It's hard for us to recommend places because we haven't seen you dance. And it also depends on how much you can afford. In the UK (where this forum is based), there are two routes to post-high school training: the vocational/conservatoire route, or the university dance degree route. Both offer options for graduating with a BA (Honours) degree. As a Malay national, you'd be liable for overseas student fees (generally reflecting the full cost of the course) of between 12,000 and 18,000 per year, plus your living costs. The conservatoires offer intense full-time dance training, but they are extremely competitive to enter, always by audition. University dance degree courses take more students, so are less competitive to be offered a place. However, they are still competitive and entry is also by audition. Most university dance degrees tend to focus on contemporary dance, and you'd be studying a lot of modules in contextual & historical studies, plus professional development. You'll find the same in Australia - the former Colleges of Advanced Education tend to be the places which offer degrees in dance. The other way of course, is if you are a phenomenal world-class dancer for your current age, enter competitions such as the Prix de Lausanne, or the Youth America Grand Prix (YAGP), as prizes include places at major international ballet schools.

For the USA, it’s really worth reading the wealth of information available on Ballet Talk for Dancers. I I also notice that big studios such as Steps on Broadway (in New York) offer student visa programmes (the students are staffing the reception desk when I check in for class there when I’m in NYC). But I don’t know if there’s a coherent curriculum, or just “do all the classes you can manage” sort of training. That said, Steps has some extraordinary ballet teachers at the Advanced/Pro level, and it’s well-known that NYCB and ABT dancers drop in to work with their favourite teachers. But there’s no company attached.

Absolutely! And there's so much discussion on this board about people's discomfort and criticism of all the current frippery which appears to distort the playing field & employment market ("perfect" Insta, extra coaching etc etc) I'm surprised that parents might even contemplate starting an Insta account for their DC.

It seems to me that if parents are looking for ways of giving their children "the edge" then the demand is coming from those parents, rather than "clever marketing." Practitioners are responding to demand from those parents prepared to pay to give their children what they perceive to be a competitive advantage.

And also, we forget that “banana feet” don’t just happen. They are usually the result of a lot of slow, steady, consistent barre and centre work. Especially tendus. There is natural potential but that potential is only realised through several years of consistent work. At 8, it’s still about potentia l- but it’s also about “teachability” and the desire to do the work.

And of course, the broader question is: how many people in the general population end up doing what they dreamed of doing when they were 11? Or what they trained for at school? or what they studied at university?

It is at least as difficult in academia as in ballet to secure a permanent post. The two vocations are similar in many ways. But a better question or comparator would be to look at the graduates from drama conservatoires such as RADA or LAMDA or Guildhall, and so on. Only one or two graduates of each cohort go on to get regular work as actors. And it’s much harder for women. Or what about all the young people who take up a specific sport with serious intent? Not all talented, highly trained young athletes get to the Olympics. Ballet is not unusual in terms of the many highly trained and talented young people with ambition, but who - for a variety of reasons, not all to do with the number of contracts available - don’t go n to make a living from dancing in a classical ballet company.

A Greek friend of mine says that the Fage yoghurt is the nearest he’s found in England to the standard home-made yoghurt he grew up with in Greece. I mix Greek yoghurt with the frozen strawberry and banana smoothie mix I buy in Iceland, and it’s like very creamy ice cream! No added sugar apart from the natural sugars in the fruit. And plain Greek yoghurt is high in protein while not high in junk calories, and is filling. As @Pas de Quatresays, most commercial yoghurt -especially the “low fat” ones - are full of junk calories. Also, does she like avocados? Half an avocado in slices might make her feel satiated without bulk or additives.

What about cubes of cheddar cheese? Protein, and very satiating - no need to eat more than 50grammes or so at a time. And go well with a handful of sultanas. I found this a really good snack as I mostly try to remove out processed carbs from my diet and increase my protein intake.

@Millicent I think your whole post should be framed! But this bit in particular is important.

When I lived in Birmingham I attended Jonathan Payn's Advanced ballet class at DanceXchange. He is a wonderful teacher - really non-judgemental and detailed in his corrections & feedback. We always thought he's left dancing the premier danseur roles far too early; his jumps are gorgeous and he has that lovely ease & softness that comes with Cecchetti training. But his acting in roles in Nutcracker and Hobson's Choice and so on is always great. Good to see that his skills & artistic leadership are being recognised. And he's just a really nice man. He was always so kind and encouraging to this ageing amateur dance student!

How old is she? If she’s 15 or 16, then she’ll be able to keep herself conditioned. If she’s 10 or 11 then just give her a break! Ballet schools will be looking at potential at that age. Most ballet studios don’t require auditions; if you’re looking at vocational schools, then it’s a much longer process. But is dependent on age - there’s a point at which achieved ability outweighs potential, but it really depends on the school. The national vocational school I know best (from a family member’s attendance - I took her to the audition) focussed on potential and achievement in equal parts even at 15 because they wanted to mould and form their dancers into the style and training they wanted.

Tips for what? Schools?

This really cannot be put at the door of one person. The decision to stop or stay dancing is a complex one, and it may be that the young dancer concerned was starting to see the wider picture. In terms of ballet as a career, the level of marks in exams is only a very small part of the picture. A lot of young dancers start to see how they compare with others once they move into situations beyond their local studios. Sometimes, young people are far more realistic about the bigger picture than their loving families. It may be that this competition allowed your granddaughter to see the bigger scope of the ballet world and was her "excuse" to make a graceful exit in as easy a way as possible. She may have been looking for a solid reason to give up - as @glowlightsays: But if it really is that one second prize is enough to cause a young person to stop an activity, then the loving family around them needs to do something about developing her resilience and self-esteem. Coming 2nd in a competition is not a disaster! Quite the reverse - how amazing to be second out of any number of dancers. And if that is compounded with what you are saying was overt favouritism, then that is a further reason for this young dancer to dismiss the result and keep on going. People should be learning ballet for the skill, the art, the enjoyment - not to pass exams or win prizes. These are things you do along the way of gaining a full mastery of a very difficult art; they should not be the reason. That is putting the cart before the horse, and generally won't lead to happiness or contentment.

That doesn't sound so great - you really need to be able to relax your knees in a plié (a correction I received in online classes with a very good teacher - it was a revelation!). I made the mistake of staying in my pretty solid, tight gym leggings earlier this week when I had to rush straight from a weight-lifting training session (I lifted 97.5kg in a deadlift!) to a Floor barre class I do at home on Zoom. I thought I'd just stay in my gym tights, but they droop at the crotch (because the waistline isn't tight enough, despite them being a S in size, grr) and it made a lot of the movements in floor barre quite tough - I felt I was fighting my tights as well as the effort of working my turn out. So supermarket leggings far better - softer & more pliable - I have some from Sainsbury's which are lovely & soft, and I can pull them tight at the waist, but they give my hips & knees the freedom they need. This is why proper ballet tights & leotard were invented!

Another voice in sincere thanks and appreciation for all you do, Bruce.

It might help posters help you @startedat17if you could give some context for your question? Are you thinking of auditioning for these schools? Or are you doing research for a project (a book, a play, a school project)?

I think the evidence of various posters' personal experiences (or those of their dancing children) shared on this thread shows that there are few blanket policies. Universities are not like schools - each university is an independent institution, and can set admissions criteria as they see fit, as long as the criteria are within UK law (eg the Equalities Act).

In my experience of university admissions, this is the case. And a lot of more competitive or academically demanding degree courses don't use the points system at all. At my place (Russell Group, competitive to get in) we don't use UCAS points - we interview on the basis of predicted or achieved A Level grades.

If you're a UK citizen and resident here, remember that as we're no longer in the European Union, full fees at the overseas student rate would probably apply, for both the ballet training and normal school, plus health care costs, accommodation etc. I wonder if it would actually be cheaper than UK options in the long run? I know that at university level, students going to mainland Europe under what used to be the Erasmus exchange scheme (which was reciprocal so costs evened out for each exchange partner) are now financed by the UK government, otherwise they'd be paying overseas student fees.

Great to hear from someone who's worked with Ms Nicholson in this way! My other suggestion @Squawk020in terms of discussion with your parents, is to take it step by step. At each step, you and your parents (separately and together) can review your options. As others have said, you are setting a very high aim in auditioning for Elmhurst for post-16 training. There are many uncertainties. You don't know how you will fare in meeting the Elmhurst criteria. And I think you need to know that before you set your heart on any course of action. But could you ask your parents for permission to audition, if it is clearly understood (and also allowed by Elmhurst) that if you are offered a place, that is a moment to pause and consider the next step, and that step may be to turn down the offer of a place. You need to be sensible about this, and recognise that a) you may not be offered a place; or b) if you are, it is your parents' decision finally, because of the funding requirement. I also think it might be a reasonable request to your parents to permit you to take this first step, as long as you are respectful of their decision were you to be offered a place. You will see whether you are of sufficient standard & ability to be offered a place at a vocational school, or not. It would be sad to go through the next few years of your life, wondering "what might have been." I've seen a few young adults rather blighted by this sort of regret. But you need to be prepared for not being offered a place. If you were to be offered a place, but your parents cannot afford to fund it, then you have further options. It's not a disaster! You then will know that you have the standard of training required and the ability good enough to be offered a place. That would be great information to have! There's lots of advice here in this thread about alternative ways to approach your post-16 training. Your main plan here might be to keep up your training so that you can audition for University-accredited dance degrees, which you would fund via student loans, and part-time work in the vacations, if necessary. Your starting point would be looking at the suggestions in this thread for more classes, as you're not really doing enough for the aspirations you have. Associates schemes, or well-taught live online classes with really experienced teachers - some names have already been mentioned in this thread (all of these will cost, but they are good options). Good luck.