Kate_N

Many other countries don’t use the graded exams syllabus of the RAD. Any progressive structured syllabus is fine, and no-one needs to take ballet exams if they’re studying ballet for the love of it! Could she do the grade classes to build strength and technique? Doing lower level classes together with a level of class which is a challenge, is an excellent way to build technique and ability to do the more advanced work.

Also because one class a week isn’t enough for the IF work, nor for pointe work - that is, for pointe work to be done well and safely.

3 hours ago, FlexyNexy said:

Speaking from our experience and having trained overseas, my daughter walked out twice from their senior summer school as it was “boring”, too slow and she did not even sweat in the class. Nice to take photos by the door, wear summer school T shirt that she uses to go to bed, maybe an Instagram post to fit within “bunheads” but that’s about it.

3 days in and she refused to come back and could not even compare it to overseas classes that they truly been worth the money.

Different training styles suit different people. The British style is to work very slowly and steadily to create a clean pure technique. This shows in RBS trained dancers. And it's observably different from other national schools.

I don't think it's reasonable to deduce that on the basis of 1 young pupil's point of view & experience, the RBS is not a world-class ballet training school.

5 hours ago, Peanut68 said:

Another thing about dance teachers saying they are ‘well connected’

At older vocational level this Thule of phrase is kind of used like a very insidious double edged sword….

@Peanut68your DC obviously had difficulties in their training, but I really want to defend ballet teachers! I don’t think it’s fair to make such generalisations and paint all teachers with the same brush. I know many, many teachers who genuinely want the best for the students.
 

And if their students do well, why shouldn’t teachers let others in their dance community know? Why should the dancer not be celebrated? And why should not parents who know little about dance see that success, and draw inferences from it about the teacher’s expertise?

None of these things is unreasonable.  And most teachers are not out to destroy their students. 

23 hours ago, Neverdancedjustamum said:

RBS-related successes are quite clearly prioritised and are always “centre stage”. I’ve heard of dance schools where teachers still regularly speak about former students who have gone on to WL, sometimes inadvertently affecting the morale and confidence of current students who  regularly subconsciously remember they “didn’t make it”, not like their peers who are now at WL.

It's tricky, isn't it?

One of the standard pieces of advice given to non-dance knowledgeable parents is to look at where students from a studio have gone on to - what other schools, Associates programmes, jobs etc. So a studio/teacher who sends a student to RBS, or which has a number of "name" school associates, is going to let you know that - it's one of the signs of solid training.

12 hours ago, Millicent said:

Y5 JA DD who is desperate to get into WL. I have never been a fan of her ballet career aspirations but am in a difficult position as I don't feel that I can shatter her dreams by bot letting her audition. We don't have access to top quality local training either so she is v keen to go to vocational school. I don't want her to for many reasons but don't feel that I can stop her auditioning.

Could you explain to her that you're going to take it step-by-step, and allowing her to audition is not a guarantee she'll be able to attend.

Would it also be possible to look at other vocational schools? ENB, Central (although I think that's for older children) Tring, Hammond, Kate Simmonds - and many more (do a search here) or a stronger after-school programmes (might require more driving?)

Having options & choices is good. I think White Lodge and the RBS gets romanticised as it's often the only ballet school people have heard of. It all becomes a bit Noel Streatfeild.

While it always sounds tempting to go for the very low tuition fees in mainland Europe, you get what you pay for. Most large European universities have very few of the things that UK students might expect - there’s not the emphasis on the “student experience “ that is demanded here. Degrees are at least 4 years and from the experiences of 2 generations of my French and German family members, classes are large. There’s very little small group teaching, seminars start at around 25-30 students, and tutorials are fairly non-existent. The education in terms of standards is top notch - but students are expected to sink or swim.  There’s very little of the spoon- feeding through that unfortunately we seem to have to do with a minority of our UK undergrads. There are very few arrangements for halls of residence.

none of these things is necessarily bad - just different. But I know as a UK academic, my working life is arranged very differently from my mainland European colleagues. 
 

And while I know of some degree programmes which are taught in English plus the native language, I think that you’d need the native language to complete a degree and certainly to live in the country.

you might also think about what you want to do after your degree. Will you stay in the country? Will prospective UK employers recognise the substance of your degree? And so on.

For dance training of course all of the above is far less applicable. Although I should think that tuition fees are now payable given that UK nationals are no longer European citizens.  I think there is a transition period, but at some point UK citizens are going to be counted as Overseas students for tuition fee purposes in the rest of Europe 

I would also imagine that the standard at, say, the Cranko School, is at least as tough as the elite UK schools, such as RBS, or ENB.

2 hours ago, alison said:

a result of universities being run with more of a business mindset rather than an academic one.

Off topic but just to say that universities have been forced by successive governments to operate more like "business." It's not something any university would actually choose.

Quote

into a good University

It really depends what you mean by "good."  And what area/s of historical studies you want to pursue.

So a couple of points:

1) With a generalist degree such as History (similarly with generalist degrees in Biology, or English, or Business) the standard of university you attend can be important. So you might look at universities which ask for grades around the A/A* level. If you are capable of those sorts of results, I see no reason to study at a university below that level, for a generalist BA or BSC (specialist & vocational degrees are a whole other ball game). 

Most universities will recognise what you've achieved - vocational ballet studies to a high level PLUS 2 excellent A Levels. However, I suspect that the kinds of universities taking students at A* level will also want that third A Level. Or the equivalent BTEC (or whatever this daft government is going to replace BTECs with). 

2) What sort of History do you want to study? You don't need to answer that here! So you'll also need to look at various universities' curricula. Go beyond the glossy admissions websites, and get to the Departmental information for current students, so you can see the kinds of requirements. Do they have Medieval history, if that's what you want to study? Do they offer language studies? Do they just focus on 205th century history ... and so on.

And then look at HOW you'll learn & be assessed - what types of teaching and assessment do these departments you're interested in use?

You've done so well - it would be a pity not to try to add that third A Level, to "future proof " yourself. 

In this advice I am referring about the high level research-led universities - not the post-1992 (former polytechnics). Post-92 universities tend (not always) to have much lower entry levels for these kinds of generalist subjects, and their academic staff tend not to be the ones writing the original books and articles which feed the discipline of History with new & original ideas. 

There is a misapprehension that academic staff research is bad for teaching; in the arts & humanities, research drives really cutting-edge teaching. I often teach courses which are based on the material I'm researching for the next book, or material drawn from extended research from the last book. Students generally seem to find this quite exciting, and I can pass on & train my undergrads in research techniques etc

But my main response to your post is 😲 that you are in the Upper 6th!! I remember when you were just starting out on your wonderful ballet journey as about 11 or 12! How time flies!!!

You can add long-distance SouthWestern Rail to Room101. They used to offer very cheap deals for their very slow trains up to Waterloo from the West Country. For a £10 or £15 day return I would put up with no power points, WifI or the ability to reserve a specific seat. And NO quiet Zone (but the appalling people who run CrossCountry got rid of the Quiet Coach so it's not just SWR). 

But nowadays, when they should be luring us back, prices are high, very rare to no special deals, and still no power, booked seats or decent Quiet zone.

1 hour ago, Dance*is*life said:

Now that we're back in the studio, they're not really interested and no spare time anyway

My personal experience as an adult dance student is the same. I can keep on doing quite a few classes online, but now we're back in the studio, it's just not the same.

On 12/05/2022 at 08:27, Elz said:

Being prone to mental health issues is perhaps correlated to whatever it is in a person that draws them to a career in the performing arts. I don't find that fact hugely surprising. If that correlation has now been established by a recognised study, then there is no excuse for not providing better support for performing artists.

It's standard basic Freudian psychology ... we are drawn to that which we need. I see this in the preponderance of young women aiming for an acting career. They want to be seen, in a society which doesn't necessarily value them, but socialises them into a version of femininity which in part suggests they should be objects of the masculine gaze (and there's a lot of evidence in the history of theatre & actresses to confirm this!).

Of course, none of this (or only a very small part of it) is deliberate or conscious.

But a friend of mine, an academic behaviorial psychologist, confirmed that in our work we are all drawn to what we need psychologically. Humans - go figure!

On 21/02/2022 at 10:02, Neverdancedjustamum said:

Just to say as well that you may need to make a distinction between the type of contemporary dance that’s now often part of ballet companies’ repertoire

This is really true. I find that most "contemporary" classes are much more lyrical/commercial. It's really hard to find Graham or Release technique classes outside of specialist providers such as The Place or Rambert.

There's also lots of information here:

https://dancers.invisionzone.com/forum/26-adult-ballet-students/

You'll see several pinned topics with information about adult SIs and also reviews, tips, accounts of people's experiences.

On 22/04/2022 at 15:34, Blue Box Ballet said:

I have long believed that the current model for exclusively exam based/ syllabus learning is doing our students a disservice. 

OFF Topic - but Brava for saying this. I see it as young dancers move into adult/open classes, and can't really cope with the style of an open class. 

Yes, that may well be the case. 

Also, it might be worth looking at the parallel with music teaching in primary & secondary schools. That is in decline - how are freelance music teachers dealing with this? Are there professional associations (beyond RAD, BBO, ISTD) of studio owners? Could you set this sort of thing up, to work together to advocate for local studios?

20 hours ago, Pas de Quatre said:

Why are RBS undermining us in this way?

If they are subject to similar pressures that, for example, universities are subject to, they may be finding that their continued state funding (via ACE, DoE etc) is subject to things like:

outreach

accessibility

Basically, the push to get rid of perceived "elitism" in the arts world. 

Of course, this "elitism" is a figment of policy makers' imagination. Small local dance studios all over the UK constitute a huge grass roots movement, but the whole study of dance - and ballet in particular - suffers from being seen as amateur, elitist, only for middle-class girls - indeed, this latter thing is quite telling: both ballet & netball are the most widely played/studied sports/movement practices for children & teens in this country, yet they are overlooked or even mocked because they are largely pursued by girls. I think it's sexism.

I've been in policy-led conversations in my field when people have bemoaned the decline of arts education in the UK. I point out that my local dance studio is committed to openness, diversity, safe and professional dance training for all abilities - but it is never included in any surveys of arts provision in my rural city, and because it's "paid for" or extra-curricular, it's seen again - as elitist etc etc. 

Lots of great recommendations for teachers who are dedicated to teaching non-professional adults seriously.

I think you might have to do some research and trial and error attendance at various London studios. You could look at what termly paid courses there are for adults - City Lit and RAD run these. There is a weekly class in the “Central Nights” programme at Central School of Ballet, which is an exam preparation class, using the RAD Intermediate syllabus. That might be worth trying.

I think the main thing is to find one or two teachers who you click with, and whose teaching you find challenging and helpful, and attend regularly. My favourite London teachers are Christina Mittelmaier for a regularly dancey choreographed class, Hannah Frost for simple clean technique that is actually very difficult (her adage exercise with no arms is a demon) , and Nina Thilas-MOhs for classes that really set my body up, and get us really moving - eating up space!
 

You might also enjoy Isabella Mayes-Maguire who teaches a Russian style class at Intermediate/Advanced level. But that is more advanced than Inter Foundation (RAD) so those would be a good challenge for you.

I think you’re going to have to get used to a different style of learning in open/drop-in classes. They’re very much reliant on you being able to take what you need from the class. But I have found that if you go to teachers regularly and really actively pay attention, they will get to know you and keep an eye on you.

I think you need to find a couple of teachers who you click with - who teach at the major central studios, such as Danceworks and Pineapple, and keep going to their classes. I have 3 I go to as regularly as I can manage (I don’t live in London) and they all know my name, they know the things I need to work on, and one even had an idea about my previous training from watching me in class a few times. That’s because I go fairly regularly, work hard, and soak up the corrections and wisdom!
 

once you get to know a few teachers, and they get to know you, they’ll give you really useful coaching. 
 

so keep trying with open classes at an Intermediate level. I’d recommend Christina Mittelmaier as someone who will really push you at Intermediate/Advanced level and gives very good individual corrections. You also have to take on the general corrections teachers give. Try her Sunday morning class at Danceworks. It’s tough but also freeing and relaxing. You really move and dance in Christina’s classes. 

im sure other posters will have recommendations.

I’d really recommend taking some time (a lot of time😁 ) to read Ballet Talk for Dancers. The pre-pro schools are arranged alphabetically, but the search function is pretty good. So you could search for the city/area you’re moving to.
 

one of the Moderators , VRS, is fully Vaganova teacher-trained at the Institute in St Petersburg, who teaches at a very selective vocational school. She is extremely knowledgeable. And there is quite a lot of discussion about Balanchine style on the board. It’s from VRS I got the phrase, Good ballet is good ballet.

9 hours ago, Kerfuffle said:

certain aspects of technique which are pretty different such as not putting the heels down in Balanchine in petit allegro. 

That is not good ballet technique. It’s a modification made sometimes to accommodate very very fast petit allegro. But treat with caution any studio that teaches that as the way to do petit allegro.

Balanchine was a choreographer from the Russian tradition - he worked in a specific way, but it’s  a style, not a technique, in the same way that we note differences in style between Cechetti and RAD syllabi. But they are minor, and well-trained dancers should aim to be flexible in doing a combination or a choreography the way the teacher/choreographer asks.
 

It’s all ballet. 
 

As the teachers on Ballet Talk for Dancers say, ballet is ballet is ballet.  “Balanchine” is not a technique - it’s simply a style which tends to be connected with American ballet, but not always. When I’ve done class in the USA I’m always recognised as 

“English “ in style, but if your daughter were to train intensively in the States, she’d soon pick up the nuances of the style.

I'd second @taxi4ballet's suggestion of Danceworks or Pineapple. It sounds like she'd do well in beginner's classes to start with - Christina Mittelmaier is a wonderful teacher for children/young dancers. 

If it were the only class a dance student did - then 45 minutes each week, definitely! Once a month for 3 hours could be downright dangerous.

But if it's a master class - or extra training as in an Associates programme - in addition to regular weekly classes, then the higher quality class is better.  As @Pups_mum says 

33 minutes ago, Pups_mum said:

it depends so much on the context.